Bark of the Least

[RachelBibleStudent]

I find it odd that people see the verses that say the world was destroyed in the days of Noah and they have no problem with this. But when we see that the world being destroyed by fire we insist that that could not have happened because the world is still here. It was still here after the flood!

the world was still here...but a literal flood of literal water had literally wiped its land surface clean of literally everything...

you destroy the parallel by insisting that the destruction by fire is anything other than a literal worldwide event involving literal fire that literally wipes the earth clean...

and there aren't even any obscure quotations from josephus that will put -that- in AD 70...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Not at all Froin - the problem with futurism is two fold - A failure to correctly identify the whor.e of Bablyon as 1st century apostate Israel/Jerusalem:

(Gal 4:25 KJV) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Those in bondage are the children of the whore. in Revelation.

(Gal 4:30 KJV) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

nowhere in scripture is hagar ever called a prostitute or compared to one...hagar and her son representing old covenant israel has nothing whatsoever to do with the identity of babylon...

unfortunately preterism is entirely dependent on this kind of sloppy eisegesis...

 

[Timeline]

When did it occur?

First what has to be correctly identified is just who is the whor.e of Babylon - it's not the catholic church, the EU or the WCC.

The scriptures themselves all point to it being 1st century AD Jerusalem who were guilty of the blood of the prophets.

(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jesus stated that vengeance for the blood would fall on the generation that heard him:

(Mat 23:35 KJV) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

(Mat 23:36 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

(Rev 19:2 KJV) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

The book of revelations is written in a series of visions "and I saw" repeated over with addition details.

It appears at first "sight" that the whor.e is judged and then the "millennium" starts - but if the whor.e was judged in 70AD then the we need to approach our understanding of just what the "millennium" means and when it occurred.

(Rev 22:1 KJV) And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

We are further told that John sees a river of life flowing - this started at Pentecost, unless one can show there are two rivers of life one back at Pentecost and one in the "future" there can be no mistaking that the Zechariah prophecy is repeated by John.

(Zec 14:8 KJV) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

We know that the river of life is the holy spirit because Jesus and John tells us so and this happened in the 1st century AD:

(John 7:38 KJV) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

(John 7:39 KJV) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

(John 20:22 KJV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

(Zec 14:8 KJV) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

The above language is in the poetical apocalyptic style - we know that the apostles took the gospel through the land and they took the river of life with them wherever they went.

Now the woody literalist demands a literal split mountain but will ignore the fact that Zec 14:8 was fulfilled during the time of the apostles.

Larry, I agree with you that the harlot was Jerusalem. And I believe that the beast was Israel, -what Israel was because of its history. I believe that the seven heads/kings/mountains represent the leaders (and the covenants that they had received from God).
Noah/Father/Leader of the survivors/Ararat;
Abraham/Father of Many Nation and grandfather of Israel/Mountain which I will show you;
Moses/Leader of Israel/Sinai;
David/Actually King/?Zion? (This one is not as straightforward as the others)

These were all covenants from God and called covenants in Scripture. There was the Adam/Eve/Snake covenant, but it lacks what the other covenants had: Sign, Mountain, Sacrifice (at least three had a sacrifice: Noah, Abraham, Moses)

Revelation 17:8-13
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. [SUP]13 [/SUP]These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

For some reason, although I do not stand firm on it, I lean toward more of a literal thousand year reign (not an earthly reign, or at least not limited to an earthly reign). The church that I attend believes that we are in the millennium, while think that it is probably over. Again, I have a hard time keeping everything in order, but I think that many others are not even concerned about the truth, but just regurgitate what they have been told. It is unavoidably clear (not that I feel a need to avoid it) to me that much, much more prophecy was fulfilled in the first century than many "churches" teach.

 

[RickyZ]

You have to understand the purpose of the millennial reign. And to do that you have to go back to the beginning. God creates creation, and He's in charge of it. God creates man, and gives man charge over it. His deal with Adam over the new creation was, I'll walk with you, talk with you, lend you an ear and give you advise, but what you say Adam, that’s what goes. You Adam are the authority. That was God's intent/will. So Adam gives that authority away to satan. God could have in His sovereign power taken it back, but then that would put Him back in authority, and that wasn't His intent/will. His intent was for man to be the authority. So to restore what He intended/willed meant a man had to take authority back from satan. But who could do such a thing? Well, God, coming to us as a man. So the Messiah comes and indeed takes back authority, for both God and man.

But having done so, He then ascends into the heavens and we continue on here. Christ holds authority in heaven, but this world is still under the previous management. God allows us to tap Christ's authority and bring it to bear here and now, thru the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit. But that still doesn't fulfill God's intent/will. God intended for physical man to have physical authority over this physical world. And that is restored when Christ physically returns to do just that, for 1,000 years.

Come Lord Jesus!

 

[Timeline]

You have to understand the purpose of the millennial reign. And to do that you have to go back to the beginning. God creates creation, and He's in charge of it. God creates man, and gives man charge over it. His deal with Adam over the new creation was, I'll walk with you, talk with you, lend you an ear and give you advise, but what you say Adam, that’s what goes. You Adam are the authority. That was God's intent/will. So Adam gives that authority away to satan. God could have in His sovereign power taken it back, but then that would put Him back in authority, and that wasn't His intent/will. His intent was for man to be the authority. So to restore what He intended/willed meant a man had to take authority back from satan. But who could do such a thing? Well, God, coming to us as a man. So the Messiah comes and indeed takes back authority, for both God and man.

But having done so, He then ascends into the heavens and we continue on here. Christ holds authority in heaven, but this world is still under the previous management. God allows us to tap Christ's authority and bring it to bear here and now, thru the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit. But that still doesn't fulfill God's intent/will. God intended for physical man to have physical authority over this physical world. And that is restored when Christ physically returns to do just that, for 1,000 years.

Come Lord Jesus!

I do not subscribe to the futuristic (that is in our future) millennial reign. Although, I think you had some good comments up to that point.

 

[RickyZ]

Thank you. And again I ask, in your view, what's next for us? If the millenium ended in 70 ad, where do we in 2014 go from here? In your own words.

 

[Timeline]

Thank you. And again I ask, in your view, what's next for us? If the millenium ended in 70 ad, where do we in 2014 go from here? In your own words.

I don't really know if "the millennium ended in 70AD". The thousand year reign is a bit confusing to me, since I do believe that the bible is mostly, if not completely, self-fulfilling.

As to your question, it is the same as it has always been: Ecc. 12:13-14

[SUP]13 [/SUP]The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Although, I do not believe that "His commandments" includes the "Old Law". While I think that there are good things in the old law, that are good guidelines, I think that Jesus placed us under the "New Law" of grace and "Love". The law of love covers many of the things in the old law anyway. Love you neighbor, Love God.

I believe that Jesus will come back and that we will all be judged. Many people put their hope in a second chance during the millennial reign (I am not saying that you do), but I think this is a dangerous game. Hoping that we will have a second chance, some give their current lives over to sin.

 

[Timeline]

I don't really know if "the millennium ended in 70AD". The thousand year reign is a bit confusing to me, since I do believe that the bible is mostly, if not completely, self-fulfilling.

As to your question, it is the same as it has always been: Ecc. 12:13-14

[SUP]13 [/SUP]The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Although, I do not believe that "His commandments" includes the "Old Law". While I think that there are good things in the old law, that are good guidelines, I think that Jesus placed us under the "New Law" of grace and "Love". The law of love covers many of the things in the old law anyway. Love you neighbor, Love God.

I believe that Jesus will come back and that we will all be judged. Many people put their hope in a second chance during the millennial reign (I am not saying that you do), but I think this is a dangerous game. Hoping that we will have a second chance, some give their current lives over to sin.

I guess that I should also say here that if we truly accept Jesus, that our sins will be overlooked. And it goes without saying, this does not mean that we sin more so that grace will increase. It just means that we will mess up and that we do not need to become discouraged when we have messed up.

 

[RickyZ]

Ok, so we're not too far off from each other. We continue to live in this world until Jesus returns and we are judged. With you on that, I would add that we are caught up to Him in the heavens in an event some like to call the rapture to be judged. Where do see the judgment occuring, on earth or in heaven? So then... my vision sees Christ return with us to this world to rule it physically, restoring finally everything God originally intended. After that time, this creation is de-created, all mankind is judged at the White throne, and we are then given a new creation. My understanding is that preterists in general believe that when Jesus returns and we are judged, that is the White throne jugement and we move on to the new creation without ever physically ruling over earth. And please correct me if I am wrong, I do really want to see how you see it happening.

I don't know; there's no confusion on my end about the thousand years. To my eye, God couldn't had made it clearer if He'd written it on a wall calender. But, that's my eye. I'm not sure why you see confusion in yours. I guess that's why I'm askin'.

 

[RickyZ]

I guess that I should also say here that if we truly accept Jesus, that our sins will be overlooked. And it goes without saying, this does not mean that we sin more so that grace will increase. It just means that we will mess up and that we do not need to become discouraged when we have messed up.

Amen on that Lord. Jesus' forgiveness is a per-lifetime occurance, not a per-event occurance.

 

[Timeline]

Ok, so we're not too far off from each other. We continue to live in this world until Jesus returns and we are judged. With you on that, I would add that we are caught up to Him in the heavens in an event some like to call the rapture to be judged. Where do see the judgment occuring, on earth or in heaven? So then... my vision sees Christ return with us to this world to rule it physically, restoring finally everything God originally intended. After that time, this creation is de-created, all mankind is judged at the White throne, and we are then given a new creation. My understanding is that preterists in general believe that when Jesus returns and we are judged, that is the White throne jugement and we move on to the new creation without ever physically ruling over earth. And please correct me if I am wrong, I do really want to see how you see it happening.

I don't know; there's no confusion on my end about the thousand years. To my eye, God couldn't had made it clearer if He'd written it on a wall calender. But, that's my eye. I'm not sure why you see confusion in yours. I guess that's why I'm askin'.

If you try to clear your mind of preconceived ideas (this is not meant as a jab, but sincerely) and read the last two chapters of Revelation, I think you will see that it is talking about the Church. In other words, the church is the new Jerusalem. Notice that there is a lot of discussion in it that relates directly to the church (although I do find it interesting that it says there are 12 fruits of the Spirit). Revelation starts and ends with "soon" and "the time is near". You will note that when Jesus says that Judas is "at hand" he immediately arrived. This is the same as in Revelation (except, I personally believe that the "Revelation" was given at the transfiguration and then written shortly after the resurrection - you must disregard some history recorded by men (not inspired by God) to realize this). As they came down the mountain after the transfiguration, Jesus told them not to tell anyone until the Son of Man had risen.

[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then He *came to the disciples and *said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. [SUP]46 [/SUP]Get up, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!”[SUP]47 [/SUP]While He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, came up accompanied by a large crowd with swords and clubs, who came from the chief priests and elders of the people.

 

[Timeline]

If you try to clear your mind of preconceived ideas (this is not meant as a jab, but sincerely) and read the last two chapters of Revelation, I think you will see that it is talking about the Church. In other words, the church is the new Jerusalem. Notice that there is a lot of discussion in it that relates directly to the church (although I do find it interesting that it says there are 12 fruits of the Spirit). Revelation starts and ends with "soon" and "the time is near". You will note that when Jesus says that Judas is "at hand" he immediately arrived. This is the same as in Revelation (except, I personally believe that the "Revelation" was given at the transfiguration and then written shortly after the resurrection - you must disregard some history recorded by men (not inspired by God) to realize this). As they came down the mountain after the transfiguration, Jesus told them not to tell anyone until the Son of Man had risen.

[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then He *came to the disciples and *said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. [SUP]46 [/SUP]Get up, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!”[SUP]47 [/SUP]While He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, came up accompanied by a large crowd with swords and clubs, who came from the chief priests and elders of the people.

I don't think you will think that I meant that Revelation was referring to this comment, but I want to clarify. I used this verse to show that when Jesus said "at hand" he meant right now, immediate.

 

[RickyZ]

I understand that preconceived ideas I may have, and that's why I am being open to asking and hearing what is in your heart and mind. I revisit and test my understandings all the time. That is why I am so confident in my beliefs, because they have been repeatedly tested and stood up to it. But I also know that as much as I may know, today is not the day to stop learning.


You didn't answer my question. Starting from today, in your own words, what are we looking for, what are we waiting for, what do we have on the road ahead of us? What steps will come to move us from here and now to eternity with God? Or is this it, it's really all finished and this is as good as it's going to get?

 

[Larry_Stotle]

Thank you. And again I ask, in your view, what's next for us? If the millenium ended in 70 ad, where do we in 2014 go from here? In your own words.

You carry the gospel to those that have not heard it so they too can "come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels" and receive eternal life

(1 Pet 2:9 KJV).........that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

(Eph 3:21 KJV) Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

There is no end of the world.

 

[Timeline]

You carry the gospel to those that have not heard it so they too can "come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels" and receive eternal life

(1 Pet 2:9 KJV).........that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

(Eph 3:21 KJV) Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

There is no end of the world.

I think you may be too bold in saying that there will be "no end of the world". I am not saying that you are wrong, but I believe at minimum there will be a "reset". I have often thought about Cain going to the land of Nod and wondered where those people came from. I have also considered the statement by Solomon in Ecclesiastes:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]What advantage does man have in all his work
Which he does under the sun?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]A generation goes and a generation comes,
But the earth remains forever.[SUP]5 [/SUP]Also, the sun rises and the sun sets;
And hastening to its place it rises there again.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blowing toward the south,
Then turning toward the north,
The wind continues swirling along;
And on its circular courses the wind returns.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]All the rivers flow into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full.
To the place where the rivers flow,
There they flow again.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]All things are wearisome;
Man is not able to tell it.
The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor is the ear filled with hearing.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]That which has been is that which will be,
And that which has been done is that which will be done.
So there is nothing new under the sun.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Is there anything of which one might say,
“See this, it is new”?
Already it has existed for ages
Which were before us.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]There is no remembrance of earlier things;
And also of the later things which will occur,
There will be for them no remembrance
Among those who will come later still.

I wonder how deep Solomon's insight was. How far back and how far forward is being indicated? How many times has God done this (I mean all of this)? Although this is just speculation and I do not believe that I/we have enough evidence to be sure. In this thinking we get into areas that I feel that we need not go - Our time is now and we pursue hope in Jesus. I am probably not saying anything that you do not know.

Some will shoot this thought down because there is no evidence (at least according to most Christians) that previous civilizations existed before Adam - but we also know that this would not be a problem for God. I have probably said too much, but like RickyZ I am in a constant state of learning and try not to limit the possibilities, as long as they don't interfere with my faith. Many people fail to acknowledge that Genesis 1 says that the earth was here before Day 1 of Creation. We also see these words in Jeremiah 4:23 - I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light. Some say God was referring to Genesis 1, but I believe He may have been talking about the lawlessness and immorality of the people of that time.

Don't hit me.

 

[RickyZ]

You carry the gospel to those that have not heard it so they too can "come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels" and receive eternal life

(1 Pet 2:9 KJV).........that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

(Eph 3:21 KJV) Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

There is no end of the world.

So the existence we now know continues eternally? This is it?

 

[Timeline]

So the existence we now know continues eternally? This is it?

I don't tend to think so. Though, who am I? Even if Larry is right, we will all die (or as Paul says, we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed) and we will all go on to be with God, or not. I tend to think that there will be an end. But the "end" that Jesus refers to in Matthew 24 was the end of that age and is not referring to the end of the world.

 

[RickyZ]

So really, by putting all your eggs in the 70 ad basket, you really have no clue as to what comes next for us? Not a single hint?

I just can't imagine God being so explicit with all those who lived before 70 ad, and then leaving the rest of us who live later a big fat question mark. I think that alone is reason to abandon the idea. God is not a God of silence.

It is NOT all said and done. And those who are not prepared for what's next are going to suffer or turn away. That is what makes the question so very, very important.

 

[RickyZ]

And I agree, the end spoken of in Matthew is not the end of this world. It is the end of this age. Now if we could just agree on what 'this' age is

 

[Atwood]

Come on in, I won't bite...

(Bernard 3:3 NDV) The bark of one among the wildebeests.

Ye are not of my pack.

​

How can people be speculating on the book of Daniel if it is sealed to the time of the end – how do they determine the time of the end to be able to unseal the book?

Jesus tells us when the time of the end was:

(Luke 21:20 KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Luke 21:22 KJV) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

(Luke 21:32 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


The following all happened to the Apostles especially Paul who appeared before Nero:

(Luke 21:12 KJV) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

(Luke 21:13 KJV) And it shall turn to you for a testimony

Some of the Olivet Discourse in Luke found fulfillment in AD 70. Of course the Times of the Gentiles has continued since then, Jerusalem being yet trodden down of Gentiles. But the bulk of the Olivet Discourse, especially in Mark and Matthew (which lacks that Luke part), has never been fulfilled. The Signs have not happened yet.

I don't know how many times I have seen the Lord Jesus and/or the Bible attacked for a false prophecy where it says,

"This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." And you jumped many verses from 22 to 32.
The generation which does not pass away here is that generation which sees the signs, not the generation the Lord Jesus was addressing.

Look at context and compare all 3 accounts of the Olivet Discourse:

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations:
[AD 70]
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. [continues from AD 70 into the present day]

And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars [never happened];
and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; [never happened yet];
men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. [never happened]

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [certainly hasn't happened yet]

But when these things begin to come to pass, [great signs]
look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.
And he spake to them a parable: Behold the fig tree, and all the trees: when they now shoot forth, ye see it and know of your own selves that the summer is now nigh. Even so ye also, when ye see these things [the great signs]
coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh.
Verily I say unto you, This generation [that sees those signs]
shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished."

All things have not been accomplished yet;
Christ has not come.

As recorded by Mat:

"If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man."

Anyone studying the Olivet Discourse should compare the 3 accounts, and note how after an initial sentence, only Luke addresses the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem, and the Times of the Gentiles. The words Church and Rapture do not occur and are not found in the Olivet Discourse. It is Israel and the gentile nations there. First one has the Beginning of Sorrows (these things are the beginning of birthpangs), then the Great Tribulation (= the Tribulation in the Olivet Discourse). The Birthpangs parallels the first 4 seals of Rev 6.

It really requires a great amount of eisegesis and fanciful distortion of scripture to claim that these things all happened around AD 70; the preterist position is impossible.