Does water baptism save us

[Simiel]

We don't know and it doesn't matter. He lived under the old law of Moses and baptism wasn't required until the New Testament became effective. When Christ died on the cross, the New Testament was ushered in. See Heb. 9:16

Jesus was baptized and he was living under the law. John the baptist was baptizing a lot of people, so was the disciples. and that was before Jesus died on the cross

 

[Alligator]

We don't know and it doesn't matter. He lived under the old law of Moses and baptism wasn't required until the New Testament became effective. When Christ died on the cross, the New Testament was ushered in. See Heb. 9:16

Jesus was baptized and he was living under the law. John the baptist was baptizing a lot of people, so was the disciples. and that was before Jesus died on the cross

Good point. Jesus said in Matt. 3:15 that His baptism was to fulfill all righteousness. We know He wasn't baptized for the remission of sins. John even tried to get Jesus to baptize him. While John's baptism was also,for the remission of sins, it was transitory in nature preparing the Jews for Christ. John made it clear that Christ's baptism was the exception to the rule. Jesus submitted to baptism as an example to the Jews.

 

[onlybygrace84]

In considering the significance of water baptism, this possibility came to mind and please entertain my thoughts. You see, water baptism is emphasized quite a bit in the New Testament for it to be just another sacrament that has no real significance over just another good work one might do in obedience. So throughout the course of considering this subject in prayer, this is a possibility I’m willing to accept.


On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7:37-39 ESV)


Now Jesus here says if we are thirsty we should come to Him and drink. Thirst is the most intense of human desires and urges and water has always been the most thirst quenching of liquids. In fact Jesus says He gives living water to those who ask Him. (John 4:10-14) Jesus even says there, “but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” (John 4:14 ESV)


Now Jesus says this “river of living water” that flows from within those who believe in Him comes from within their heart. In Romans 5:5 Paul writes God poured out His love into our hearts by giving us the Holy Spirit, a clear reference to the statement Jesus made in John 7. Yes it is possible for Paul to know about this because remember Paul learned his message from Jesus Himself. (Gal 1:12) He even said in Galatians 4:6, “Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."” God sent the Holy Spirit into our hearts, which leads to eternal life (John 4:14).


So what does this have to do with water baptism?


And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; (Matthew 3:16 ESV)


Jesus is our example in all things. He is the One we should follow and model our lives after. Jesus received the Holy Spirit at the moment in which He was baptized. This is significant I believe. Paul even makes the statement:


he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, (Titus 3:5, 6 ESV)


2 things here:


The washing of regeneration (Greek, 3824. Paliggenesia, the new birth, regeneration)
renewal of the Holy Spirit (Greek, 342. Anakainósis, Change of heart and mind)


so we are saved by the washing (Greek, 3067. Loutron, same word used in Ephesians 5:26 in stating Jesus cleansed the Church by washing her) the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. This sounds awfully similar to Peter’s statement on Pentecost!


And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 ESV)


Now I know the greek is different in the two verses by the two apostles, but the essence of the message is the same. Change your heart and mind and be washed so that you can receive the Holy Spirit, thus receiving adoption into God’s family (Romans 8:15; Gal 4:6) and eternal life (John 4:14; 1 John 2:25).


This is the significance of water baptism. Jesus draws the connection between the Holy Spirit and “living water” and the waters of baptism merely represent this living water that will flow from within your heart, where the Holy Spirit takes up residence in the believer. And as you are baptized, you join yourself with Jesus in His death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-11). By identifying with Him in this, you are given new life (the new birth, regenerated) by the Holy Spirit who is given to you.


So what does belief have to do with this?


How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (Romans 10:14, 17 ESV)


As you hear the message of Christ, you accept that only through Him you can obtain cleansing for your sins. You decide to obey Jesus in whatever He wants you to do (make Him your Lord) through your believing in Him.


This is an inner truth expressed by an outward act. Thus statements about being born again through water and Spirit are made true.


Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:3, 5 ESV)


he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5 ESV)


Even the Old Testament prophet Ezekiel preached a message similar to this:


I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Ezekiel 36:25-27 ESV)


Thus with the connection between the "living water" and the Spirit, when you are baptized in water, you are baptized in the Spirit and enter the new covenant. (1 Corinthians 12:13; Romans 6:3-11)

 

[faroukfarouk]

Baptismal regeneration is not Scriptural. Acts 2.41 makes it clear that those who were baptised were already born again believers.

 

[onlybygrace84]

Really?

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5 ESV)

washing of regeneration....

 

[faroukfarouk]

Really?

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5 ESV)

washing of regeneration....

Ephesians 5 speaks of 'the washing of water by the Word'.

Giving clergy the supposed power to regenerate by applying water is totally false. The Lord alone can do it, and it is by faith (Ephesians 2.8).

 

[Alligator]

Baptismal regeneration is not Scriptural. Acts 2.41 makes it clear that those who were baptised were already born again believers.

It says those that received his words were baptized. That means they heard the word, believed it, and submitted to it. It does not mean they were already saved.

 

[onlybygrace84]

Ephesians 5 speaks of 'the washing of water by the Word'.

Giving clergy the supposed power to regenerate by applying water is totally false. The Lord alone can do it, and it is by faith (Ephesians 2.8).

If you read my somewhat lengthy statement above, I try to lay out I view water baptism as a type, a shadow, of being baptized in the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13; Romans 6:3-4) by which we are born again. Jesus called the Holy Spirit living water in John 7:38... I think if you read my post, you'll get a better idea of where I'm coming from...

 

[onlybygrace84]

Now let me say, I no more believe the act of baptism saves a person than uttering a premade "Sinner's Prayer" does. Salvation is by grace through faith. Faith in Christ and His resurrection. Which incidentally enough Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21:

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Peter 3:21 NIV)

Baptism is merely the means by which people join themselves to Christ. No more than confessing verbally that Jesus is Lord. Both are things that must be done according to scripture to be saved.

 

[Simiel]

Good point. Jesus said in Matt. 3:15 that His baptism was to fulfill all righteousness. We know He wasn't baptized for the remission of sins. John even tried to get Jesus to baptize him. While John's baptism was also,for the remission of sins, it was transitory in nature preparing the Jews for Christ. John made it clear that Christ's baptism was the exception to the rule. Jesus submitted to baptism as an example to the Jews.

Good response , just trying to keep you on your toes lol

 

[Alligator]

You did, lol.

 

[freed4ever]

We are a particular people to God as we where alienated before by the sin of Adam and Eve. Water baptism was a symbol of what was to come (Jesus Christ) who has come to WASH away the sins of the world. Water baptism came before the ministry of Christ. Christ him self was baptized and he knew NO sin but there where many water baptisms after Christ even unto this day. Christ had taken away our sin and water has washed it away.

 

[Alligator]

Trust me, I know what repentance means. And once again you did not respond directly to my questions. You do what you normally do,, you go to some unrelated scriptures trying to pit the Bible against itself without answering the questions.

I knew you would try and make faith and repentance the same thing, they are not. If you want to put repentance before faith, how far do you think you would get with that in trying to convert an atheist.?

No one ever totally stops sinning, however, they no longer live a life of sin as they did before conversion if they have truly repented.

Trust me, apparently you don't and you don't know what it means to believe and be saved either (Luke 8:12; John 3:18; Acts 13:39; Romans 1:16) or else you would not reverse the order of repentance and believe in receiving salvation.



You did not answer my question. What is the Biblical order in Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21? Repent and believe or believe and repent? I answered your questions and used scripture to back up my answers. I don't pit the Bible against itself, as you do, I harmonize scripture with scripture.



Did I say they were the exact same thing? No. The Bible sometimes only mentions repentance as a condition for salvation. One example of this would be Luke 13:3, “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” See also Luke 24:47 and Acts 3:19. At times both repentance and believe/faith are mentioned in the same verse (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). There are many, many verses which only mention believe/faith as the condition for salvation (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; Ephesians 2:8 etc..). Repentance is a "change of mind" about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. When only repentance is mentioned in receiving salvation, faith is implied or assumed. When only faith is mentioned in receiving salvation, repentance is implied or assumed. Where you have one you must have the other. If you believe the gospel, then you already repented in the process of changing your mind and choosing to believe the gospel. Repentance and believe/faith are inseparable in receiving salvation. Not so with baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel and not yet be water baptized.



Of course an atheist would first have to believe in the existence of Jesus Christ before they could believe the gospel and become saved. To simply believe in the existence of Christ (even the demons believe that) is not unto salvation. Jesus called all to repent or perish. For some people though, prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ for salvation), they must change their minds about other specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about his previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (see 1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, faith in Christ, focuses on the new direction that change of mind must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation.



My point exactly! 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. This does not mean that we never sin at all. I explained in post #1546 that true repentance results in a change of actions/changed life. We prove our repentance by our deeds (Acts 26:20). *Sounds like James - I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). The fruit is not the change of mind, but the acts which result from it (Matthew 3:8). Just as good works are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. Faith is the root of salvation. Are you beginning to understand yet?

One thing I do know is how to recognize a manipulator of the Scriptures. I believe you fit that category quite well.
look at Acts chapter 2. When Peter finished speaking to those who just crucified Christ, he says they were pricked in their heart. Obviously they were believers first and then Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized. Peter has the order right.

You failed to study the context Of scriptures like Mark 1:15. These people were already believers in God, they needed to be believers in Christ and the Gospel. It was not the same type of audience that Peter preached two in Acts chapter 2.

let me ask you this. You believe in salvation at the exact point of faith, correct? If this is the case, then why are you so concerned about changing the order of faith and repentance? If you believe in faith only, that excludes everything else. So what difference would it make what order they come in.?

like I said earlier, this whole thing is a ploy to eliminate baptism by various denominations. By changing the order, you have non repentant people being saved. That is your dilemma.

 

[mailmandan]

One thing I do know is how to recognize a manipulator of the Scriptures. I believe you fit that category quite well.

I was thinking the exact same thing about you and you demonstrate it below.

look at Acts chapter 2. When Peter finished speaking to those who just crucified Christ, he says they were pricked in their heart. Obviously they were believers first and then Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized. Peter has the order right.

At this point in Acts 2:36-37, these Jews simply believed that Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet, but is part of the process that will lead them to changing their minds and trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation. They still lacked believing/trusting in Christ for salvation (Acts 11:17,18) and that's why they still needed to repent. In verse 40, they heard more from Peter and in verse 41, when they gladly received his word, the process of repentance was complete and the end result was saving faith in Christ. Faith in Jesus Christ (implied in genuine repentance) "rather than water baptism" brings the forgiveness of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*

Notice how I harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion instead of distorting and perverting passages of Scripture in an effort to patch together a so called 5-6 step gospel plan that amounts to faith + works.

You failed to study the context Of scriptures like Mark 1:15. These people were already believers in God, they needed to be believers in Christ and the Gospel. It was not the same type of audience that Peter preached two in Acts chapter 2.

Did I say these people did not already believe in God? The demons believe in God (James 2:19) but they are not saved. Yes, they needed to be believers in Christ and the Gospel. So you recognize the difference? So what is the difference between the audience in Mark 1 and Acts 2? Did the audience in Acts 2 already believe in God prior to believing in Christ and the Gospel? *Please explain to me what it means to REPENT and BELIEVE the Gospel.

let me ask you this. You believe in salvation at the exact point of faith, correct?

Yes. *Please explain to me what Paul means by, you have been "saved through faith" in Ephesians 2:8. Does faith precede water baptism or do we baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers?

If this is the case, then why are you so concerned about changing the order of faith and repentance? If you believe in faith only, that excludes everything else. So what difference would it make what order they come in.?

I'm concerned about changing the order of repentance and faith because faith that is still lacking repentance is not saving faith, but is mere mental assent belief (no different than the belief of demons) which falls short of believing/trusting in Christ for salvation/believing the Gospel. I don't believe in what James refers to as "faith only" which is an empty profession of faith that demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead (James 2:14-20). Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works is not the same thing as faith that remains alone in producing good works, which is a bare profession of faith, a dead faith, not a living faith that has been made alive in Christ, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

like I said earlier, this whole thing is a ploy to eliminate baptism by various denominations. By changing the order, you have non repentant people being saved. That is your dilemma.

Water baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to saving faith as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved (Acts 10:43-47), for the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not by rites or religious works, or good works. This does not remove water baptism and other works of righteousness/good works from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and justification.

By changing the order, you have believe as nothing more than "intellectual assent" to the existence and historical facts about Christ, which falls short of trusting in Him for salvation/believing the Gospel. Then repentance which follows is nothing more than moral "self-reformation." By changing the order, there is no genuine repentance "change of mind" that results in the new direction of believing in Christ for salvation/believing the Gospel, so you have unrepentant, unbelieving wet sinners being saved. That is your dilemma.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I was thinking the exact same thing about you and you demonstrate it below.



At this point in Acts 2:36-37, these Jews simply believed that Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet, but is part of the process that will lead them to changing their minds and trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation. They still lacked believing/trusting in Christ for salvation (Acts 11:17,18) and that's why they still needed to repent. In verse 40, they heard more from Peter and in verse 41, when they gladly received his word, the process of repentance was complete and the end result was saving faith in Christ. Faith in Jesus Christ (implied in genuine repentance) "rather than water baptism" brings the forgiveness of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*

Notice how I harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion instead of distorting and perverting passages of Scripture in an effort to patch together a 5-6 step gospel plan.


Did I say these people did not already believe in God? The demons believe in God (James 2:19) but they are not saved. Yes, they needed to be believers in Christ and the Gospel. So you recognize the difference? So what is the difference between the audience in Mark 1 and Acts 2? Did the audience in Acts 2 already believe in God prior to believing in Christ and the Gospel?
*Please explain to me what it means to REPENT and BELIEVE the Gospel.



Yes. *Please explain to me what Paul means by, you have been "saved through faith" in Ephesians 2:8. Does faith precede water baptism or do we baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers?



I'm concerned about changing the order of repentance and faith because faith that is still lacking repentance is not saving faith, but is mere mental assent belief (no different than the belief of demons) which falls short of believing/trusting in Christ for salvation/believing the Gospel. I don't believe in what James refers to as "faith only" which is an empty profession of faith that demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead (James 2:14-20). Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works is not the same thing as faith that remains alone in producing good works, which is a bare profession of faith, a dead faith, not a living faith that has been made alive in Christ, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works (Ephesians 2:5-10).



Water baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to saving faith as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved (Acts 10:43-47), for the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not by rites or religious works, or good works. This does not remove water baptism and other works of righteousness/good works from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and justification.

By changing the order, you have believe as nothing more than "intellectual assent" to the existence and historical facts about Christ, which falls short of trusting in Him for salvation/believing the Gospel. Then repentance which follows is nothing more than moral "self-reformation." By changing the order, there is no genuine repentance "change of mind" that results in the new direction of believing in Christ for salvation/believing the Gospel, so you have unrepentant, unbelieving wet sinners being saved. That is your dilemma.

Baptism in Acts 2.41 came about as a result of the people's saving faith, rather than supposedly to achieve it.

They 'gladly received his word' and so they were baptised. It was a symbol, post-new birth, that they willingly observed.

 

[mailmandan]

Baptism in Acts 2.41 came about as a result of the people's saving faith, rather than supposedly to achieve it.

They 'gladly received his word' and so they were baptised. It was a symbol, post-new birth, that they willingly observed.

Amen! Those who gladly received his word (saved through repentance/faith - compare with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9) were "afterwards" water baptized. Salvation is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Amen! Those who gladly received his word (saved through repentance/faith - compare with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9) were "afterwards" water baptized. Salvation is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism.

This is my reading also. Blessings.

 

[Alligator]

I was thinking the exact same thing about you and you demonstrate it below.



At this point in Acts 2:36-37, these Jews simply believed that Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet, but is part of the process that will lead them to changing their minds and trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation

Wait a minute? Below you said salvation comes at the instant you believe. Now it's a process?? You mean like believe, repent confess and be baptized? You can't have it both ways.. You're changing your definition to fit the occasion.

They still lacked believing/trusting in Christ for salvation (Acts 11:17,18) and that's why they still needed to repent. In verse 40, they heard more from Peter and in verse 41, when they gladly received his word, the process of repentance was complete and the end result was saving faith in Christ. Faith in Jesus Christ (implied in genuine repentance) "rather than water baptism" brings the forgiveness of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*

Notice how I harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion instead of distorting and perverting passages of Scripture in an effort to patch together a so called 5-6 step gospel plan that amounts to faith + works[/QUOTE]

sorry, but I'm not impressed, and I just told you why above.[/QUOTE]


Did I say these people did not already believe in God? The demons believe in God (James 2:19) but they are not saved. Yes, they needed to be believers in Christ and the Gospel. So you recognize the difference? So what is the difference between the audience in Mark 1 and Acts 2? Did the audience in Acts 2 already believe in God prior to believing in Christ and the Gospel? *Please explain to me what it means to REPENT and BELIEVE the Gospel. [/QUOTE]

What you need to find is a scripture that says they repented toward Christ before they believed in Christ.



Yes. *Please explain to me what Paul means by, you have been "saved through faith" in Ephesians 2:8. Does faith precede water baptism or do we baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers? [/?QUOTE]

Because you cherry picket one verse to,try and make,your case.



I'm concerned about changing the order of repentance and faith because faith that is still lacking repentance is not saving faith, but is mere mental assent belief (no different than the belief of demons) which falls short of believing/trusting in Christ for salvation/believing the Gospel. I don't believe in what James refers to as "faith only" which is an empty profession of faith that demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead (James 2:14-20). Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works is not the same thing as faith that remains alone in producing good works, which is a bare profession of faith, a dead faith, not a living faith that has been made alive in Christ, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

So you really don't believe in "faith only" then right.? You said faith lacking repentance is not a Saving faith. So now we have two things required for s alvation, faith and repentence.



Water baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to saving faith as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved (Acts 10:43-47), for the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not by rites or religious works, or good works. This does not remove water baptism and other works of righteousness/good works from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and justification. [/QUOTE].

Acts 10:43-47 does NOT say they were already saved.

 

[mailmandan]

Wait a minute? Below you said salvation comes at the instant you believe. Now it's a process??

Salvation comes at the instant we believe the gospel, not simply at the instant we believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Jesus. It's not a process to become saved after we believe the gospel, but there is a process involved prior to believing the gospel in hearing the word, becoming convicted by the truth and changing our mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and about any form of self-trust in works, religious tradition, etc.. followed by trusting in the Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation. I see that you still have not completed this process because you are still trusting in "water and works" to save you. Do you convince an atheist overnight that God exists or is there a process involved in them hearing and being convicted by God's Word that God does exist and bringing them to change their minds and believe that God does exist and ultimately convincing them to place their faith in Jesus for salvation? Do you convince the self righteous Pharisee overnight that their works cannot save them and they need to place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation in order to be saved or is there a process involved in them hearing the truth and being convicted by God's Word then changing their minds and ultimately trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation?

You mean like believe, repent confess and be baptized? You can't have it both ways.. You're changing your definition to fit the occasion.

This is not the process. We don't repent, confess and get baptized in order to become saved "after" we believe the gospel. Those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of being convicted, changing their minds and choosing to believe the gospel. We confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in heart (not just in our head) that God raised Him from the dead, together. But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" together (that is, the word of faith which we preach). Not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation together BEFORE water baptism. Water baptism follows faith and conversion. What definition did I change? Either we are saved by works or else we are saved through faith. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.

sorry, but I'm not impressed, and I just told you why above.

Sorry, but I'm not impressed by your watered down gospel and I just told you why above. My goal is not to impress you but to get you to repent and believe the gospel.

What you need to find is a scripture that says they repented toward Christ before they believed in Christ.

So repenting toward God is not repenting toward Christ? Can a man repent toward God but not toward Christ? Do you believe that Jesus is God? Acts 20:21 - Repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. We are saved through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8), but according to you, those who repent toward God and place their faith in Jesus Christ still need to repent toward Christ in order to become saved?

Because you cherry picket one verse to, try and make, your case.

That is not an answer to my question. What does it mean to be saved through faith? Harmonizing Scripture with Scripture in order to find the truth is not cherry picking. Distorting and perverting passages of Scripture and then patching them together to create a 5-6 step mixed up plan of salvation through faith + works is not harmonizing Scripture with Scripture.

So you really don't believe in "faith only" then right.?

Not according to what James means by "faith only" which is an empty profession of faith that demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead (James 2:14-20). I believe in salvation through faith "in Christ alone," not through faith and works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Saving faith trusts in "Christ alone" for salvation and is not alone in the sense that it's barren of works. What a genuine believer means by salvation through faith "in Christ alone" and what James means by "faith only" is not the same thing. Don't let the word "alone" fool you.

You said faith lacking repentance is not a Saving faith. So now we have two things required for salvation, faith and repentence.

It's not faith then repentance afterwards to become saved, it's repentance then faith. Repentance and faith in receiving salvation are two sides to the same coin. Repentance is on one side (what we change our mind about) and faith is on the positive side, the new direction of this change of mind.

Acts 10:43-47 does NOT say they were already saved.

So you need the words "already saved" spelled out for you in Acts 10:43-47 in order for you to figure out that they were already saved prior to water baptism?

Does believes in Him/believe in the Lord Jesus Christ/repentance unto life (Acts 10:43; 11:17,18; 16:31) = saved or still lost?

Does receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44,45,47; Acts 11:17; 15:8) = saved or still lost?

Show me in Scripture where lost, unbelieving children of the devil believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, speak in tongues and magnify God.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Dispensation theology with multiple different gospels is unbiblical.

While there is only One Gospel for this Dispensation (Church Age).

Concerning the different dispensations though, there is more than one Gospel, there are four of them.

The baptism of Mk 16:15, 16 is the baptism of the great commission,

Mark 16:15-16 is Doctrinally about the Gospel of the Kingdom. That is why water baptism is connected with salvation in the passage. Also note that the apostolic Sign gifts are also mentioned (See verses 17 and 18).

Mt 28:19,20; which has been commanded to all nations, every creature is water baptism administered by humans (disciples), it saves, it makes disciples and lasts till the end of the world. It is the one baptism that is in effect today, Eph 4:5.

Today in the Church Age, water baptism is not connected with one's salvation.


The one Baptism in Eph. 4:5 is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit where He places the new believer into Jesus Christ. (See 1 Cor. 12:13).

Jn 3:5----------spirit+++++++born of water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom

The phrase 'Born of water' is referring to a person's physical birth. Not water baptism.

1cor12:13------spirit+++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>in the body

Both verses say the same thing. When the bible is allowed to speak for itself one can easily see "born of water" = "baptism"

Both verses are about the new birth, neither verse says anything about the physical birth.

1 Cor. 12:13 is spiritual baptism, not water baptism.

This is a false idea od Dispensationalism. Again, the water baptism in the name of the Lord that peter commanded the Jews in Acts 2:38 is the exact same water baptism in the name of the Lord Peter commanded the Gentiles in Act 10:47,48

Acts is a transitional book.

In Acts 2, water baptism was connected with the Jews salvation.

In Acts 10, water baptism is not connected with salvation. How do we know that?

Because the Holy Ghost came upon the Gentiles which heard the words which Peter spoke, and the Gentiles had received the Holy Ghost before they got baptized in water:



Acts 10:42-48

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


[SUP]42 [/SUP]And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. [SUP]43 [/SUP]To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [SUP]45 [/SUP]And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, [SUP]47 [/SUP]Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? [SUP]48 [/SUP]And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Col 2:12-14 says nothing about "spirit baptism". The baptism of Col 2:12-14 is water baptism, a "burial" in water one is "risen" from, the one baptism of Eph 4:5, the water baptism the eunuch in Acts 8 and Gentiles in Acts 10 were baptized with.

The one Baptism of Eph. 4:5 is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost mentioned in 1 Cor. 12:13 where the Holy Ghost places the new convert into the Body of Christ.

Spiritual Baptism is what saves the convert, not water baptism.

Your claim about Col 2:12-14 was "it does not say water baptism" Well neither Col 2:12=14 or Gal 3:27 do not say "spirit baptism" either. THis baptism again is Christ's human administered water baptism of the great commission.

An important point to remember for proper exegesis is a word is to be taken literally unless the context shows it is being used figuratively. So baptize is to be taken as a literal immersion in water not some figurative 'spirit baptism"

F.F. Bruce says: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106).

So the baptism of Col 2:12-14; Gal 3:27; Rom 6:3-5; etc are all LITERAL IMMERSIONS, NONE show aptism is being used figuratively.

No, the Baptism mentioned in Gal. 3:27 is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit places the new believer into the Body of Christ.


Water baptism; while it is a Biblical ordinace that should be followed by every new born again Christian, still though, you must remember that water baptism does not place anyone into the Body of Christ. Only the Holy Ghost can do that.


Likewise, Romans 6:3-5 is about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Read the passage in its surrounding context. You won't find water mentioned within 10 chapters of either direction.

Col. 2:12-14 is also about the Baptism of the Spirit because when you compare it with Rom. 6:3-5 and Gal. 3:27, they all line up Doctrinally.

Water Baptism is a figure of the One Baptism, which is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:5).

Water Baptism follows after salvation.

ROm 6:3-6 says NOTHING about a "spirit baptism".

Again, as FF Bruce points out proper exegesis requires baptism to be understood as literal immersion in water and nothing in ROm 6 says baptism is be used figuratively. ROm 6:4 used the word "burial" and "raised up from" a literal burial in a watery grave one is raised up from to walk in newness of life. If this were baptism in the spirit, then one is buried in the spirit but the raised up FROM the spirit and would not maintain the spirit as some claim Also this water baptism of ROm 6 is that form of doctrine they obeyed from the heart, verse 17,18. Baptism with the HS has never been commanded to anyone so it cannot be obeyed, water baptism has commanded to all nations, every creature and can be obeyed.

Romans 6:3-6 is about the Baptism where the Holy Ghost puts the new believer into Jesus Christ. This Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at the very moment one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation (See Eph. 1:13).



Also, we compare Rom. 6:3-6 with the following passage of Scripture:



1 Corinthians 12:13

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.



The one Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor. 12:13 is the Holy Spirit.

And the one body that we all have been baptized into is the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27, Eph. 5:30).

Therefore, the one body mentioned in 1 Cor. 12:13 is not a body of water.

But again, it is the Body of Christ.

The underlying word for "like figure" is antipolus meaning antitype, a mirror reflection. Peter makes an OT type to NT antitype:

OT type: saved by water v20
NT antitype: saved by water v21

The NT antitype being a MIRROR REFLECTION of the OT type. The world was flooded with literal water and people are baptized in literal water. And why would Peter talk about washing dirt from the flesh if he was not talking about literal water. One does not wash dirt from the flesh with spirit

While people are baptized literally in water today. Still, the water baptism does not save us. It is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:5, 1 Cor. 12:13), which saves us.

Again, as FF Bruce says literal water baptism unless context shows it is used figuratively and Tts 3:5 nor EPh 5:26 use baptism in a figurative way.


Jn 3:5---------spirit+++++++++born of water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13-----spirit+++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5------holy Ghost+++++washing of reg>>>>>>>>>>saved
Eph 5:26-----word++++++++washing of water>>>>>>>>cleansed

Born of water = baptized = washing of reg. = washing of water.
The bible verse harmonize beautifully.

The washing of regeneration happens when the new convert is baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Ghost. It is the Holy Ghost that regenerates a person, not water baptism.

The washing of water mentioned in Eph. 5:26 is the washing of water by the word of God.

Therefore, the water mentioned in Eph. 5:26 is not talking about water baptism, but it is referring to the cleansing power of the word of God:


Ephesians 5:25-32

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


[SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; [SUP]26 [/SUP]that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, [SUP]27 [/SUP]that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. [SUP]28 [/SUP]So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: [SUP]30 [/SUP]for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. [SUP]31 [/SUP]For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. [SUP]32 [/SUP]This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Jn 3:5----------spirit++++++++++++born of water>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor 12:13----spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body

When comparing two "new birth" verse born or water = baptized. Paul water baptized some of the Corinthians himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16. There is one baptism in effect, EPh 4:5 so the water baptism of 1 Cor 1:14,16 is the same baptism of 1 cor 12:13 which is Christ's human administered water baptism as administered by Paul.

Again Seabass, the one baptism mentioned in Eph. 4:5 is the Baptism of the Spirit.


Only the Holy Ghost can place a new convert into the Body of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, once again, 1 Cor. 12:13 is not about Water Baptism.