The sabbath cults - making an idol of the sabbath.

[chubbena]

You keep claiming that obeying the Law is a curse (this is not what he scripture says, but) so show me how being faithful to my wife in every aspect of my life is a curse.

After you have done that, we will extrapolate it to the fourth Commandment.

No, he's merely equating obedience with own works while neglecting the Holy Spirit promised in Ezekiel 36:26-27
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Speaking against obedience is in fact against the work of the Holy Spirit, not our own works.

 

[Elin]

5)That would be the Greek definition of the word.

6) Subject to all its regulations/obligations and penalties.

So do you believe 5) and 6) also?

I am happy to hear these things.

Still not sure what your definition of "obsolete" is.

Did you look it up in the Greek?

Do you want me to give you the Greek meaning?

aphanizomai = "abolition" as in Lk 24:31, "vanished," "became invisible"; vanishing; disappearing

So in the light of the meaning of the word, where do you stand on 5)?

#6) Yes.

The caveat for all of these, though, is that I still believe a Christian should follow the Law, not for any other reason but responsive obedience to Jesus' sacrifice.

By "the law," do you mean the Mosaic law, which is all the commandments given to Moses at Sinai and in the tabernacle (Lev 1:1).

Or do you mean the Decalogue, as contained in Christ's law (Mt 22:37-39; 1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), and which fulfills, encompasses, accomplishes the Decalogue (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10)?

We are in agreement on this.

And if we agree on 1) - 6), there is no more to be said.

 

[Elin]

Elin, if every instruction that was given in the OT is now of no importance than why does God instruct us to keep them in the Millennium???

Hi, Funtastic,

I do not have the same eschatology as you do, so I can't answer your question regarding eschatology.

 

[Elin]

Being under the law means we are under the curse of death but not by keeping them through Christ as through Him there is no curse.

That's the true definition of being under the Law.

What do you mean by "keeping them through Christ"?

 

[john832]

If you are interested in righteousness, as you should be, you shouldn't be pursuing it by attempting to be obedient to the law. That is clearly not the way of righteousness.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Romans 9:30-31

[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 

[Elin]

I believe Heb 7:18-19, 11-12, 8:13, Ro 13:8, 9, 10;
as well as Lk 22:20; 2Co 3:6; Heb 8:6, 9:15.

Do you?

Still waiting on an answer to this.

Sure, (actually I answered them in a rather lengthy post

Yeah, that's the problem.

Is there any reason you cannot give me a "yes" or "no" answer?.

but the answer was not what you wanted to hear. We've been down that road before, haven't we?)
I do,
now answer these for me,

1) Did Christ obey the Law?

2) Do you believe I Pet 2:21?

3) Does Christ tell us to "Do what I say not what I do"?

Thanks for your answer.

And my answer is that Christ obeyed the law in the law he authorized for the NT (Mt 22:37-39), which fulfills, encompasses and accomplishes the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10).

So that would be
1) yes,
2) yes,
3) no.

It seems you fail to comprehend the difference between what Christ said before his atoning sacrifice and its meaning and effects,

and what he revealed to Paul about its meaning and effects years after his atoning sacrifice.

 

[2Thewaters]

i praise God that the gospels and acts and the boks of Paul and peter and John that were written years after Jesus went to heaven still tell us to keep the law.

Let God be true and every man study more.

He that says I know God and keeps not his commandments is a untruther and the truth is not in him.

Again I see people confusing the circumcision discussion with the eternal law of god written on stopne and spokent by god from the mountain whom David proclaimed
thy commandments stand fast forever.


I will stick with my bible and do not agree with the tudy that is misapplied, thank you anyway.

 

[john832]

You keep claiming that obeying the Law is a curse (this is not what he scripture says, but) so show me how being faithful to my wife in every aspect of my life is a curse.

After you have done that, we will extrapolate it to the fourth Commandment.

Yeah, that's the problem.

Is there any reason you cannot give me a "yes" or "no" answer?.


Thanks for your answer.

And my answer is that Christ obeyed the law in the law he authorized for the NT (Mt 22:37-39), which fulfills, encompasses and accomplishes the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10).

So that would be
1) yes,
2) yes,
3) no.

It seems you fail to comprehend the difference between what Christ said before his atoning sacrifice and its meaning and effects,

and what he revealed to Paul about its meaning and effects years after his atoning sacrifice.

Oh, so He changed His mind and now says do as I say and not as I did?

 

[Elin]

i praise God that the gospels and acts and the boks of Paul and peter and John that were written years after Jesus went to heaven still tell us to keep the law.

Let God be true and every man study more.

He that says I know God and keeps not his commandments is a untruther and the truth is not in him.

Again I see people confusing the circumcision discussion with the eternal law of god written on stopne and spokent by god from the mountain whom David proclaimed
thy commandments stand fast forever.

I will stick with my bible and do not agree with the tudy that is misapplied, thank you anyway.

Yes, the obedience of faith to the NT commands is the process by which the Holy Spirit sanctifies the sons of God.

For without holiness, no one will see the LORD.

 

[Elin]

You keep claiming that obeying the Law is a curse (this is not what he scripture says, but) so show me how being faithful to my wife in every aspect of my life is a curse.

Those are Paul's words in Gal 3:10.

Does Christ tell us "Do what I say not what I do"?

No

Oh, so He changed His mind and now says "do as I say and not as I did"?[/QUOTE]
I don't understand your point.

 

[KohenMatt]

Did you look it up in the Greek?

Do you want me to give you the Greek meaning?

aphanizomai = "abolition" as in Lk 24:31, "vanished," "became invisible"; vanishing; disappearing

So in the light of the meaning of the word, where do you stand on 5)?

It is worthless for salvation. It is still applicable and beneficial for Christians today.

By "the law," do you mean the Mosaic law, which is all the commandments given to Moses at Sinai and in the tabernacle (Lev 1:1).

Or do you mean the Decalogue, as contained in Christ's law (Mt 22:37-39; 1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), and which fulfills, encompasses, accomplishes the Decalogue (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10)?

All of the Mosaic Law.

 

[Elin]

P.S.: Correction

You keep claiming that obeying the Law is a curse (this is not what he scripture says, but) so show me how being faithful to my wife in every aspect of my life is a curse.

Those are Paul's words in Gal 3:10.

Does Christ tell us "Do what I say not what I do"?

No

Oh, so He changed His mind and now says "do as I say and not as I did"?

I don't understand your point.

 

[Grandpa]

i praise God that the gospels and acts and the boks of Paul and peter and John that were written years after Jesus went to heaven still tell us to keep the law.

Let God be true and every man study more.

He that says I know God and keeps not his commandments is a untruther and the truth is not in him.

Again I see people confusing the circumcision discussion with the eternal law of god written on stopne and spokent by god from the mountain whom David proclaimed
thy commandments stand fast forever.


I will stick with my bible and do not agree with the tudy that is misapplied, thank you anyway.

There were many times when obedience to Mosaic law could have been added to Christianity. It never was. Only people who desire to still be under the law try to make the scriptures say that Christians are still under it. Real Christians know that their works at the law are dirty rags before the Lord. Only the Lord Jesus Christ can make us clean and keep us clean.

Acts 15:5-11
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Circumcision wasn't the yoke that the fathers and disciples could not bear. Working at the Mosaic Law, the 10 commandments, is the yoke that the fathers and disciples could not be perfect at, no matter how hard they tried.

The eternal law of God written on stone...


2 Corinthians 3:7-8
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

 

[MidniteWelder]

Oh, so He changed His mind and now says do as I say and not as I did?

Not only as he did,
...but even more.

 

[Elin]

The caveat for all of these, though, is that I still believe
a Christian should follow the Law, not for any other reason but responsive obedience to Jesus' sacrifice.

By "the law," do you mean the Mosaic law, which is all the commandments given to Moses at Sinai and in the tabernacle (Lev 1:1).

Or do you mean the Decalogue, as contained in Christ's law (Mt 22:37-39; 1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2), and which fulfills, encompasses, accomplishes the Decalogue (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10)?

All of the Mosaic Law.

Are you saying we should observe the purification laws for touching dead bodies,
or for childbirth, etc.?

And observe the animal sacrificial laws, etc.?

 

[KohenMatt]

Are you saying we should observe the purification laws for touching dead bodies,
or for childbirth, etc.?

Yes, if God so leads you. My family does.

And observe the animal sacrificial laws, etc.?

No.
Jesus.

All laws can be physically and/or spiritually applied today.

And before anyone asks....
No, I don't HAVE to do all of them because if I follow one, I HAVE to follow all of them. And since I can't follow all of them, then I'm under a curse and I've gone back under the Law if I try to follow any of them.

The commands are a blessing physically and/or spiritually. There is a benefit for all Christians in following them. IF they choose not to, that's OK, but there is a benefit and a blessing missed. Again, not in regards to salvation's sake.

 

[Elin]

---

So then you believe that
1) the two principles of Christ's law (Gal 6:2; 1Co 9:21), love of God and love of neighbor, fulfills (encompasses, accomplishes) the Mosaic law (Ro 13:8, 9, 10; Mt 22:40);
2) the Mosaic law with its curse has been set aside because it was weak and useless to make righteous (Heb 7:18-19),
and the NT people of God are no longer commanded to follow the Mosaic laws with their curse for imperfect obedience (Dt 27:26; Gal 3:10), because they are all encompassed in the principles of Christ's law;**
3) the priesthood has changed from the Levites to Melchizedek (Heb 7:11-12),
4) Jesus is the new eternal High Priest of the NT priestly order (Heb 7:17, 21),
5) the Mosaic covenant has been made obsolete (Heb 8:13),
6) the people of God are under a New Covenant (Heb 8:7-12; 2Co 3:6; Heb 8:6, 9:15), inaugurated by the death of Christ (Lk 22:20).

**If I love God, I will not prefer other "gods," nor will I take his name in vain.
If I love my parents, I will not dishonor or neglect them.
If I love my neighbors, I will not steal from them, nor murder them, nor commit adultery with their spouses, nor lust after their possessions.

Love fulfills, encompasses, accomplishes the law.

So then you believe the revelation of the Son spoken in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers in
1) - 6) above?

That's good to know.

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Yes
5) Depends on your definition of "obsolete"
6) Depends on your definition of "under"

And yes to your last question.

Did you look it up in the Greek?

Do you want me to give you the Greek meaning?

aphanizomai = "abolition" as in Lk 24:31, "vanished," "became invisible"; vanishing; disappearing

So in the light of the meaning of the word, where do you stand on 5)?

It is worthless for salvation. It is still applicable and beneficial for Christians today.

Point 5) is about the covenant, not the law.

So in the light of the meaning of the word, where do you stand on 5)?

 

[Elin]

Correctio n of previous ost.

 

[Elin]

There were many times when obedience to Mosaic law could have been added to Christianity. It never was. Only people who desire to still be under the law try to make the scriptures say that Christians are still under it. Real Christians know that their works at the law are dirty rags before the Lord. Only the Lord Jesus Christ can make us clean and keep us clean.

Acts 15:5-11
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Circumcision wasn't the yoke that the fathers and disciples could not bear. Working at the Mosaic Law, the 10 commandments, is the yoke that the fathers and disciples could not be perfect at, no matter how hard they tried.

The eternal law of God written on stone...


2 Corinthians 3:7-8
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Grandpa again.

 

[KohenMatt]

Point 5) is about the covenant, not the law.

So in the light of the meaning of the word, where do you stand on 5)?

What is the Mosaic Covenant, what does it say, and what was it's purpose?