How can prisoners be more useful

[Sharp]

I've been thinking about this alot, and I think that people in jail have it way too easy. Free meals, free accommodation, television, the chance to exercise, read and socialise.....I'm sure that refugees in the swat valley or sweatshop workers in Cambodia would jump at the chance to live in western prisons.

It can cost the state up to $50,000 per year to keep 1 prisoner in prison. This money comes from MY taxes, and I'm not getting enough value for my dollar. These people are a drain on the economy, as not only are they not paying tax, stimulating the economy through spending, or working, they are "free-riding" off the back of hard-working tax payers.

I'm all for showing love to people in prison and evangelising them, but I think they can be more productive as well...

1. They should all be working 18 hour days, either manual labour, or in call centres. Governments should sell the prisoners' cheap labour to private industry, and this way local businesses can compete with cheap foreign labour, also reducing the cost of goods and services.

2. They should be forced to donate blood. Screening methods would need to be tough, as these are high risk people. There would be enough blood for everyone if blood was taken from prisoners regularly.

3. For the murderers, rapists, serial killers, etc., their organs should be harvested, and given to people who need them. This would cut organ donation lists dramatically. I only mean non-vital organs (kidney, lung, bone marrow, etc.). I think once you kill or rape someone, you give up your right to live freely in society and have the same rights as everyone else. Society gets no recompense from that person being in jail, society only gets the bill, and assurance of no additional crimes from that person for a limited time. People who commit serious crimes should have to repay their debt to society in very real ways.

4. Again, for serious criminals only, all of their assets should be stripped from them, sold, and the proceeds used for charitible purposes. For prisoners who do their time and get out, they should be given a bill at the end of their sentence for the cost of their stay in jail, and be required to pay the government back over the course of their lifetime. No more freeriding.

I think all of these initiatives would make jail much less appealing and make people think twice about committing crimes.

Ok I'm done.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I don't think jail is appealing.

 

[Sharp]

I think for some it is. I think for some it is a status thing. I think for some people jail is where they feel accepted by their peers. People can run drug syndicates from jail, order for people to be killed on the outside.... quite cosy really...

 

[dustyzafu]

2. They should be forced to donate blood. Screening methods would need to be tough, as these are high risk people. There would be enough blood for everyone if blood was taken from prisoners regularly.

3. For the murderers, rapists, serial killers, etc., their organs should be harvested, and given to people who need them. This would cut organ donation lists dramatically. I only mean non-vital organs (kidney, lung, bone marrow, etc.). I think once you kill or rape someone, you give up your right to live freely in society and have the same rights as everyone else. Society gets no recompense from that person being in jail, society only gets the bill, and assurance of no additional crimes from that person for a limited time. People who commit serious crimes should have to repay their debt to society in very real ways.

Even if we only insist on non-vital organs, involuntary medical procedures are a mistake of the past; we've mostly moved beyond them as a species and regret the times we thought they were the solution to anything. There are exceptions, of course - China is still widely criticized for using the bodies of its criminals as a natural resource.

4. Again, for serious criminals only, all of their assets should be stripped from them, sold, and the proceeds used for charitible purposes. For prisoners who do their time and get out, they should be given a bill at the end of their sentence for the cost of their stay in jail, and be required to pay the government back over the course of their lifetime. No more freeriding.

Out of curiosity, how much do you expect to recover from your average serious criminal? What will be the cost of doing so? Further, what do you do with those who are unable or unwilling to foot the bill?

People can ... order for people to be killed on the outside....

Your average criminal has neither the resources nor social influence to simply ask for someone to be killed. These people are not masterminds with tendrils stretching to every dark corner...

Any sadist can come up with things to make imprisonment less attractive. The difficulty is that we have principles.

 

[loveschild]

Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[wwjd_kilden]

uhmmmmmm

I agree on the bill part, but that's about it.

I would however love to see rapists who go to jail for a second time stay there, forever. - or be chemically castrated...
People clearly don't learn anything but bad stuff from prisons, but using them to harvest organs and blood is not very likely to help, is it?

 

[Sharp]

Out of curiosity, how much do you expect to recover from your average serious criminal? What will be the cost of doing so? Further, what do you do with those who are unable or unwilling to foot the bill?


Any sadist can come up with things to make imprisonment less attractive. The difficulty is that we have principles.

The main point isn't to make the prisoners' lives miserable. It is to extract value from them, so as to repay society for the harm they have done. If they are made miserable in the process, then so be it. Yes we have principles, like "prisoners' rights". I think prisoners forfeit the rights they have in society when they violate their obligation to live under society's laws.

How much money would I expect to recover from a prisoner once released? As much as possible. And if they never pay it back, then they'll die trying. It should be deducted from their pay over time, like taxation. And yes, I know, many will not be employed after being in jail.

 

[Sharp]

uhmmmmmm

I agree on the bill part, but that's about it.

I would however love to see rapists who go to jail for a second time stay there, forever. - or be chemically castrated...
People clearly don't learn anything but bad stuff from prisons, but using them to harvest organs and blood is not very likely to help, is it?

I agree - repeat offenders need to be put away for life.

And you're right - extracting their organs isn't going to help them all - but it will help society. Someone's life may be extended or even saved by the sacrifice that the prisoner would be forced to make. This would in some ways repay society for perhaps, a person's life they have ended by shooting them, or shortened by giving them brain damage while drink driving, or worsened by raping them.

Prisoners are often unrepentant. Losing a few organs would go a long way in making you realise the severity of what you've done.

Also, knowing that this is what you're in for in prison would deter alot of would-be criminals in my opinion.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

haha, no it wouldn't

people break the law in countries with torture, death penalty and stuff like that too....

 

[suaso]

1. They should all be working 18 hour days, either manual labour, or in call centres. Governments should sell the prisoners' cheap labour to private industry, and this way local businesses can compete with cheap foreign labour, also reducing the cost of goods and services.

Yeah, getting work out of them is good, but 18 hours a day is a bit much. Maybe 10-12 hours a day. The human body probably couldn't handle it as far as manual labor. This strain would cause really poor-quality labor as well. We're already talking about a group of people who, for the majority, come from lower-class, uneducated, and impoverished backgrounds. They aren't going to be able to do the best work out there, so private industries would probably not want to use them. Good employees, no matter the labor, work best when they want to do what they are doing or when there are attractive incentives to work: not "do it because we tell you too" forced labor. This is also why slavery is bad news.

2. They should be forced to donate blood. Screening methods would need to be tough, as these are high risk people. There would be enough blood for everyone if blood was taken from prisoners regularly.

I don't think we should force anyone to be subject to medical procedures that are unnecessary for their own health and well-being. These may be bad people, but they are still people.

3. For the murderers, rapists, serial killers, etc., their organs should be harvested, and given to people who need them. This would cut organ donation lists dramatically. I only mean non-vital organs (kidney, lung, bone marrow, etc.). I think once you kill or rape someone, you give up your right to live freely in society and have the same rights as everyone else. Society gets no recompense from that person being in jail, society only gets the bill, and assurance of no additional crimes from that person for a limited time. People who commit serious crimes should have to repay their debt to society in very real ways.

Again, people are people. When we set one class of human beings apart from another class, we run into huge ethical problems. Obviously, these criminals are not the best examples of ethical living, but we have to treat human beings like human beings, not test-subjects or organ farms. Harvesting organs won't un-murder or un-rape their victims. No one's going to say "I can sleep secure tonight knowing that my son's killer now has only one lung." I also don't know how willing someone would be to have a killer/rapist's organ in their own body.

4. Again, for serious criminals only, all of their assets should be stripped from them, sold, and the proceeds used for charitible purposes. For prisoners who do their time and get out, they should be given a bill at the end of their sentence for the cost of their stay in jail, and be required to pay the government back over the course of their lifetime. No more freeriding.

What about their families? If my dad decides to go on a killing spree, I don't think I should have to suffer the consequences of his actions. In other causes, I suppose that single criminals have no one to depend on their assets, and I don't know what the judges would say to use it for. After their sentence is up, sending them a bill for their time spent in prison will likely result in them committing some other crime in order to pay for it, or, in not paying it they will be committing another jail-worthy offense.

I think all of these initiatives would make jail much less appealing and make people think twice about committing crimes.

Prison is already unappealing, and yes, this would definitely make it even less appealing. That being said, human nature is human nature. No amount of fines or penalties can stop crime completely. The problem lies in mankind itself, which is one of the key concepts of Christianity: that man is, by his nature, prone to sin. This condition is why we do wrong. Some of us do more wrong than others and become criminals to the state. We can't do anything to curb this aspect of humanity, so resorting to nearly barbaric prison conditions doesn't seem to be the best idea.

 

[Maddog]

It can cost the state up to $50,000 per year to keep 1 prisoner in prison. This money comes from MY taxes, and I'm not getting enough value for my dollar. These people are a drain on the economy, as not only are they not paying tax, stimulating the economy through spending, or working, they are "free-riding" off the back of hard-working tax payers.

Incarceration in persuit of justice is worth the money.

1. They should all be working 18 hour days, either manual labour, or in call centres. Governments should sell the prisoners' cheap labour to private industry, and this way local businesses can compete with cheap foreign labour, also reducing the cost of goods and services.

I'm not necessarily opposed to labour sentences for prisoners (18 hours a day is far too much though), but I'm not sure I'd want the government to be selling prisoners' services to private company. That would simply be slave trade.

2. They should be forced to donate blood. Screening methods would need to be tough, as these are high risk people. There would be enough blood for everyone if blood was taken from prisoners regularly.

3. For the murderers, rapists, serial killers, etc., their organs should be harvested, and given to people who need them. This would cut organ donation lists dramatically. I only mean non-vital organs (kidney, lung, bone marrow, etc.).

I find this morally repugnant.

4. Again, for serious criminals only, all of their assets should be stripped from them, sold, and the proceeds used for charitible purposes. For prisoners who do their time and get out, they should be given a bill at the end of their sentence for the cost of their stay in jail, and be required to pay the government back over the course of their lifetime. No more freeriding.

Why? They will still have to pay their taxes which provides the money for prisons.

 

[Sharp]

Incarceration in persuit of justice is worth the money.

Its hardly justice. The criminal gets free accommodation, food, a fair ammount of companionship, free time. These are things which the victim is not even guaranteed.

I don't see why society has to subsidise the prisoner's rehabilitation. It is already something that society forces upon the prisoner against their will, but why are we paying for it? If we're willing to force them to do time in prison, why aren't we willing to force them to pay for it...

Why? They will still have to pay their taxes which provides the money for prisons.

True, but in almost all cases it won't be anywhere near enough to cover the cost of their stay in prison. There is so much debate about whether a government should cover the cost of people's medical/hospital costs, but no debate about whether prisons should be subsidised.

 

[biggentleben]

True, but in almost all cases it won't be anywhere near enough to cover the cost of their stay in prison. There is so much debate about whether a government should cover the cost of people's medical/hospital costs, but no debate about whether prisons should be subsidised.

so because they didn't fund social security right, and the money i've put into it in my lifetime is already having to be paid out, we should cut off the program completely right? the costs to increase life expectancy are just too high...

 

[Sharp]

so because they didn't fund social security right, and the money i've put into it in my lifetime is already having to be paid out, we should cut off the program completely right? the costs to increase life expectancy are just too high...

Sorry I don't follow what you're saying here...?

 

[Maddog]

Its hardly justice. The criminal gets free accommodation, food, a fair ammount of companionship, free time. These are things which the victim is not even guaranteed.

At the cost of his freedom. Maybe prisons shouldn't be as nice as they are, but I think prison itself is a reasonable punishment.

I don't see why society has to subsidise the prisoner's rehabilitation. It is already something that society forces upon the prisoner against their will, but why are we paying for it?

Why shouldn't we? I just see this as part of legitimate taxation. Prisons and pisoner rehabilitation are good for society.

 

[Sharp]

Again, people are people. When we set one class of human beings apart from another class, we run into huge ethical problems. Obviously, these criminals are not the best examples of ethical living, but we have to treat human beings like human beings, not test-subjects or organ farms. Harvesting organs won't un-murder or un-rape their victims. No one's going to say "I can sleep secure tonight knowing that my son's killer now has only one lung." I also don't know how willing someone would be to have a killer/rapist's organ in their own body.

I suspected people may have an ethical objection to this idea. I think removing someone's organs would be a legitimate form of punishment. Maybe keeping someone locked up in a cage all day is unethical? They're being held against their will....like animals....in cages....being allowed out only to eat and exercise. Yes it would be a big step up to tamper with their bodies, but one that I think would be tolerable.

 

[biggentleben]

I suspected people may have an ethical objection to this idea. I think removing someone's organs would be a legitimate form of punishment. Maybe keeping someone locked up in a cage all day is unethical? They're being held against their will....like animals....in cages....being allowed out only to eat and exercise. Yes it would be a big step up to tamper with their bodies, but one that I think would be tolerable.

i am so incredibly glad that you do not determine the justice system in this country....

 

[Sharp]

i am so incredibly glad that you do not determine the justice system in this country....

Well, if I did....at least more people would have access to health care!

 

[wwjd_kilden]

and where would you get that money from? - Having access to organs and blood doesn't solve the fact that you need personell to help the ones who are sick, and money to pay them and so on

 

[Sharp]

By healthcare, I mean, organs. That's all. It would only make the level of overall healthcare slightly better, in that only those people needing a new organ would be helped by my system. But saving several lives per year is better than none.