It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Atwood]

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Why did you not include 6:9 which explains the preceding?

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:

Heb 6:9 tells us that the preceding verses about professed Christians, not about born-again saved Christians.

I don't know, but I wouldn't count on being saved, and become disrespectful and unthankful towards God. Not only because I could lose my gift, but because I want to love Him with all of my heart.

If you want to love the Lord with all your heart, then you must have a new birth and a change of nature with the Holy Spirit indwelling. Love is the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5).

 

[Atwood]

Atwood,
Yes, that is correct. The Church Christ founded is the Church to which I submitt. Christ is the Head of that Church, and enlivened by the Holy Spirit. What He stated, and has preserved within His Body is what I believe.

Thus Cassian, your denial of eternal security is not based upon interpretations or exegesis of Bible verses. It is based upon your belief that your organization is the Church and that your organization is infallible. (Correct me if I am wrong.)

That being the case, don't you think you should stop debating the doctrine of eternal security per se, and focus on the real issue, which is whether or not your organization is infallible. Now please don't give us the argument that 1) your organization is infallible because the Bible says it, while 2) the only reason for believing the Bible is true is because your organization says so. (Circular reasoning)

What is your proof that your organization is the Church?
What is your proof that your organization is infallible?

 

[Cassian]

Now what kind of security is it if you lose your Heavenly Entrance ticket and get a Go-To-Hell card every time you sin? Why you would be on the list for the Lake of Fire every day. Thus it is absurd to call that security. That is not security at all, let alone eternal security. That is fearful insecurity. If a man presently trusting Christ as Savior doesn't know but what he would be sentenced to the Lake of fire one second later, a day later, or any time in the future that is insecurity.

But the word says, "they shall never perish."

Naturally when you must mischaracterize it then it makes no sense.

We are in Christ, and as long as we remain faithful and also confess our sins when we commit them, He is faithful to forgive them. But when one gets lazy and does not confess his sins, his sins will condemn him. Christ and sin do not mix which is why He made Himself a sacrifice so that He could forgive the sins of those who desire to be IN Him.

It is insecurity to you because you have not studied scripture very well. It is a progressive journey. It is a journey where we are to sin less and less. We are to curb our sin, end sinful habits and practicing the virtues, self denial, servanthood, then we will remain IN Christ. We are to work toward perfection that is becoming Christlike. Being conformed to His Image.
That is why we are instructed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and completely dependent on His great mercy.

If you are faithful to the end, then you shall not perish. Very easy to understand, as long as we don't employ false suppositions or mischaracterize scripture.

 

[Cassian]

I see simply and plainly by Christ's death we are forgiven, and that it is done for us to gain new life in Spirit and truth from Father via the resurrected Christ in Spirit and truth

There is no forgiveness executed from God ever without the death and shedding of blood, and this is done for us back at the cross.
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

YOu are very confused on what Christ accomplished. His atonement was for the sin of the world. He did not forgive all sins of all men from the Cross. He performed a sacrifice. A sacrifice that has the purpose of forgiving sins. Sin, no sin is remitted unless repented of and confessed. It is man's responsibility to confess his sin. Col 1:22 is for all men. Christ made all men acceptable to God through His death and resurrection.

 

[Atwood]

Naturally when you must mischaracterize it then it makes no sense.

Cassian, if you look back at your post, you will see that you are just saying things with no Bible proof. So it goes nowhere. Now here is how I see the situation. Correct me if I am wrong:

Now let's address the real issue:
You believe your way because your organization says so, and it cannot be wrong. Thus you entertain no argument from scripture to the contrary.

So what you need to do now is to prove

1) your organization is The Church (Body of Christ), and
2) your organization is infallible.
-----------

PS
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. One coming to the Lord Jesus insures one is never cast out in the future.

 

[Cassian]

Still haven't heard any OSAS proponent address this. It's not a set up. This is a true situation. I'd just like to hear how someone who with his own lips denies the Christ is going to get in.

Perhaps you all avoid it because you can't justify it.

It takes a conscious decision to accept Christ. Only a conscious decision to reject Him can rescind that. Sin can't do it, God won't do it, but a person's free will decision to deny can. And will.

I doubt they will because it is a direct judgement against their false supposition OSAS. It does not meet the standard of scripture, but it also misses reality. OSAS is a myth which is why it is so dangerous.

However, according to their theology, your nephew is saved and always will be, no matter what he does.

 

[Atwood]

​

I doubt they will because it is a direct judgement against their false supposition OSAS.

I answered it; read it if you care.
Eternal Security is not a supposition, but the plain guarantee of God in His word.

But come on Cassian, since your reason for believing what you do and rejecting eternal security is based on the teaching of your organization, not an exegesis Bible verses.

So you need to prove your source of authority (& don't reason in a circle like claiming:
1) the reason why the Bible is to be considered true is that my organization says so, while
2) the reason for believing my organization is infallible is that the Bible says so.

So let's get real. Let's see your proof that

1) Your organization is the Body of Christ, The Church.
2) Your organization is infallible.

P.S.
"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish"

 

[Atwood]

YOu are very confused

You saying things does not make it so. You didn't quote any scripture. And I think your authority for your theology is not Bible verse exegesis, but the supposed authority of your religious organization. So let's get to the real issue.

How do you know (without circular reasoning: organization, therefore Bible; Bible, therefore organization) that

1) Your organization is the Church catholic, the Bride & Body of Christ,
2) Your organization is without error in its dogmas?



P.S.:
"believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

 

[Atwood]

you have not studied scripture very well.

I have been reading the Bible over and over times beyond counting since I was a teenager. I even studied it in Greek and Hebrew. I took a Bible one year and read from cover to cover marking all the passages on salvation, including any claimed by persons who do not agree with me. Now how many times have you read it through? Have you marked all the passages?

But let's be real. The reason why I don't believe as you do is because the Bible is my final authority and not your religious organization. You believe as you do because your organization says so.

So why continue as you are?

You need to prove that your source of authority is infallible and that it is the actual Church of Christ.

Let's see the proof!

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

So then Cassian, you put human tradition above the Word of God like the Pharisees?
But thanks for your honesty. How do you know that your organization is infallible? What is your proof?

huge unfounded assertion. Where is our proof that I have put human tradition above the word of God. What tradition, by what man?
On the other hand I have already shown you four individuals who devised theories from their personal interpretations from scripture which you hold. Augustine, Original Sin; OSAS, calvin/Augustine, pagan religion; Satisfaction of atonement Anselm; premillennialism, darby. How many more, probably as least one more, your own nuances added.

Absurd, I have posted a ton of verses which declare the security of the believer in the Lord Jesus. Your canard about the present tense is nonsense, as the future tense is also used, and moreover, how should a promise be made of security but to the one who presently trusts Christ as Savior. The promise to the present believer is future security, as the Bible declares over and over.
They shall never perish.

exactly which is a denial of eternal security. The believer can walk away between the time of initial faith and future promise realized. It all depends on the believer remaining faithful. Scripture says it repeatedly.

Talking about Calvin & Augustine are irrelevant. The question is What saith the Lord?

not irrelevant, your theory of OSAs is a clear tenet of Calvinism umbrella doctrine of predestination. You can find it in Manicheanism where Augustine adopted the idea but you will not find it in scripture.

The meaning of John 5:24 has not been changed by myself. It is clear as a bell, unless you have blind eyes and a hard heart.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes [present tense] him that sent me, has eternal life [eternal includes the future], and cometh not into judgment [reference to future judgment], but has passed out of death into life [past salvation received]/

Clear to me but it does not support OSAS.

I posted a multitude of verses which directly declare eternal security, like shall never perish.
Now you make a bunch of other assertions which go no where, since it has not scripture, and you are not a prophet.

It is all scripture. Scripture as it has been understood from the beginning. It is why OSAS is a false doctrine and cannot be found in scripture. It is imposed upon these texts which do not have the idea of absolute salvation at point of initial belief. The inheritance is always in the future and depends on the faithfulness, the continuance of believing in order to obtain it.

1 Cor 15:53 does not support your claims. And it is noted that you do not quote it.

It supports scriptures claim, and it verifies the salvific content of the Incarnation. Just as I Cor 15:12-22 does as well.

The present believer is guaranteed eternal life and security in the future. Shall never perish.

Yes, as long as he beleives. But we know that a believer can and does fall away, which then makes this statement irrelevant to him.

Man can stop believing at any time.
No proof. Give proof of your spoof, or retract.

YOu're getting desparate. Obviously you don't understand scripture just your proof texted theories. Adam would be a start, Prodigal son, the two middle examples of the parable of the sower, the one who hid the talents in the parable of the talents, the unfaithful servant, five foolish Virgins, Demas, Hymeneus, and a host of texts that state emphatically that believers had lost faith.

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God [happens at a moment in time] overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

another text that does not support OSAs. The whole text is hinged on our faith. If we lose faith this text is irrelevant and that beleiver will NOT attain eternal life. Very simple text without false suppositions upon it.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

another one that is hinged on OUR FAITH. If we remain faithful, it applies. But if one becomes unfaithful, has no faith, a dead faith, it it irrelevant, will not attain eternal life.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Neither one has OSAS stated in it. The last does not even address the issue which is man's status with Christ. One needs to stay IN Christ, but man can freely remove himself from Christ.

 

[newbirth]

I see simply and plainly by Christ's death we are forgiven, and that it is done for us to gain new life in Spirit and truth from Father via the resurrected Christ in Spirit and truth

There is no forgiveness executed from God ever without the death and shedding of blood, and this is done for us back at the cross.
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you :

You deliberately left out a big verse just to prove your point
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
[SUP]
Therein lies the problem with OSAS because that big word ,if presents a condition for which you are responsible for him to present you [/SUP]
[SUP]holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight.

Here is Jesus saying the reason the father has not left him is because he always do those thing that pleases him. Then later on he uses that big word again... If ye continue in my word

John 8
28 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]As he spake these words, many believed on him.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[h=3]Hebrews 10:35-37[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]35 [/SUP]Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.



How can you teach ES and OSAS doing nothing,when the writer here is clearly stating after you have done the will of God you might (big word) receive the promise.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

Thus Cassian, your denial of eternal security is not based upon interpretations or exegesis of Bible verses. It is based upon your belief that your organization is the Church and that your organization is infallible. (Correct me if I am wrong.)

It is based upon the teaching of the Apostles which some later was written down. It is based on the fact that I believe what the Holy Spirit gave to the Apostles is the Truth, the revelation of God to man in this Messianic Age. Christ is infallible along with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit entrusted that gospel to the Apostles therefore the Church. The Church, Christ's Body is infallible which is how the Holy Spirit functions through Christ's Body.

the organization to which I belong is irrelevant. All the organizations that make up the Orthodox Church are united through the same faith, the Eucharist, the same practice. The organizations are united thus IN Christ, being ontologically united with Him and sharing His uncreated energies.

That being the case, don't you think you should stop debating the doctrine of eternal security per se, and focus on the real issue, which is whether or not your organization is infallible.

Could you explain to me just what arguement I could use to show that Christ and the Holy Spirit are fallible?

It is the very same Church that has existed from Pentecost. It has held the very same Gospel from the beginning unchanged for 2000 years. Man has never been able to foist his innovations upon Christ's Gospel. It gave you the scriptures that you so badly mutilate with personal interpretations of men who lived long after the Gospel was given, and were never even taught the Gospel in the first place.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

Cassian, if you look back at your post, you will see that you are just saying things with no Bible proof. So it goes nowhere. Now here is how I see the situation. Correct me if I am wrong:

It is all scripturally based. It just is not your interpretation of it. after all you belong to a league that can make scripture mean anything one desires to make it mean, OSAS is not an exception.

Now let's address the real issue:
You believe your way because your organization says so, and it cannot be wrong. Thus you entertain no argument from scripture to the contrary.

I believe it because it is Christ's Gospel as He gave it and has the Holy Spirit has preserved it within Christ's Body as He promised. It cannot be wrong because Christ/the Holy Spirit gave it to the Apostles who then gave it to the early Church. That Gospel has not changed since that time. The Church does not need to interpret anything, it was given the Gospel fully, totally in the beginning. Some apostles later wrote some of it down. Scripture CANNOT be separated from it full content, Holy Tradition the full Revelation God gave to man, and the Church to whom it was entrusted.

1) your organization is The Church (Body of Christ),

to much to give in this post, but you can check this on the internet today. The first Church in Jerusalem is still there, only in its fourth building since 33AD, it has had bishops of James who is recorded in scripture and ever since to the present day. Church at Antioch, established by Peter, Evodius was the first bishop in 53AD and the line continues to the present day. Same can be done for Alexandria. Same for Rome up until they split in 1054, Same for Russia after the Church was established there in the 9th century.
It does not need to be proven, but believed as scripture establishes it, and as history has witnessed.

2) your organization is infallible.

Organization is irrelevant since we are not united by organization but through Christ's Body. It would be a given that both Christ and the Holy Spirit are infallible, unless you doubt that premise.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. One coming to the Lord Jesus insures one is never cast out in the future.

the question is not about God. It is about man. Man leaves God. God never needs to cast out. It is up to man. See the story of Adam again. Did God cast Adam out? Or did ADam sin and break the relationship?

 

[Cassian]

​

I answered it; read it if you care.
Eternal Security is not a supposition, but the plain guarantee of God in His word.

you did, but needed to change the meaning of NT believer, so it fits your theory.

But come on Cassian, since your reason for believing what you do and rejecting eternal security is based on the teaching of your organization, not an exegesis Bible verses.

it is based on the meaning of those texts from the beginning. Unfortunately for you, the Bible as you know it, was derived from Holy Tradition. It is only part of what the Apostles taught the early Church which is why all sola scripturist are at a loss when it comes to understanding scripture. One cannot extract it from its full content or context and expect to make sense of it. It was not ENTRUSTED to individuals to do with a text as they desired.

So you need to prove your source of authority (& don't reason in a circle like claiming:
1) the reason why the Bible is to be considered true is that my organization says so, while
2) the reason for believing my organization is infallible is that the Bible says so.

How can one prove the source of Christ. the scriptures state that the Holy Spirit will remind the apostles what Christ taught them, and then would also lead them into all truth. That same Truth was taught to the early Church as scripture desribes and the Church, the NT Church was born on Pentecost and still exists today, even in Jerusalem.

So let's get real. Let's see your proof that

1) Your organization is the Body of Christ, The Church.
2) Your organization is infallible.

I cannot because you don't even understand what constitutes the Body of Christ. I have never claimed the organization I belong to is the Body of Christ. There are 15 organizations that all belong to the Orthodox Church. The Body of Christ is all Orthodox Churches united through the Eucharist, the Body of Christ. It is based on the trinitarian concept of many are one. It is why all congregations are catholic, that it constitute the whole and complete Body of Christ. and the many make up the One. Same as Christ is unified with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, three is ONE. As is each believer is not the body, but all believers are the Body, many are one.

It is by the same faith, from the beginning that unifies the Church, the Body of Christ. It is that Body over which Christ is the Head, and enlivened by the Holy Spirit as Scripture describes. Do you believe in what Scripture states without your personal interpretation imposed upon it?

Can you prove that the Church, the Body of Christ is NOT infallible? I cannot prove it is infallible. I accept the given that Christ and the Holy Spirit would be infallible and since the Holy Spirit works through the Body of Christ, the Body is infallible.

Christ gave the authority to the Apostles who in turn entrusted it to the bishops they chose in the beginning and have succeeded since.



P.S.
"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish"[/QUOTE]

 

[newbirth]

Probably many of us are annoyed by threads being started with false statements, like OSAS is of satan. Then it is in our face all the time while we present scriptural proof how that if you are saved you are saved!

The reason why this denial is heresy is that it denies the very concept of salvation and that the Lord Jesus is our Savior. Those who take that route have distorted the meaning of salvation and savior. Such a denial is evidence that a man does not trust Christ as His Savior. But salvation is something we must have; we will not receive validation of our life's works.

To be sure, grace is an offense to the pride of man, since a corollary of grace (favor contrary to what we deserve) is the depravity of man. This explains why men despise grace, the idea that eternal life is a free gift to those who trust Christ as Savior. Men do not want to admit the depth of their depravity. But the idea that after judgment a man would be validated on the basis of his life's works and then do God a favor by entering Heaven, is a serious error. Man must have salvation, not validation of life. We must admit that our depravity is so profound that we must be saved by grace.

Salvation is not something one receives after an examination and judgment of works, salvation starts with a new birth and includes eternal life right now in this life. "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

Rom 8:

For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them
he also justified: and whom he justified, them
he also glorified.


What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He Who spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall He not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities,
nor things present, nor things to come,
nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

same chapter what is a debtor , if you mortify the deeds of the body you shall what ?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
.

patchwork scripture is for those with itching ears....tell the whole truth. you have to go through Rom 8- 12,13,14 before you can say what's in 31-39

 

[Atwood]

Atwood,

Again, instead of quoting the Bible and proving things, you are just saying things. Where is your proof that your group is the Church and that it is infallible? Or do you admit it is not infallible?

It is all scripturally based. It just is not your interpretation of it.

What is your proof of that?

I believe it because it is Christ's Gospel as He gave it

What is your proof of that?

and has the Holy Spirit has preserved it within Christ's Body as He promised.

What is your proof of that your group is the Church in which the gospel has been preserved? Since you deny the plain truth of God's word on eternal security and justification by faith, how can your group be the Church?

It cannot be wrong because Christ/the Holy Spirit gave it to the Apostles who then gave it to the early Church.

What is your proof that your group is the Church begun on Pentecost?

That Gospel has not changed since that time.

What is your proof of that? Were there not heretics perverting the gospel even at the time of Galatians?

The Church does not need to interpret anything, it was given the Gospel fully, totally in the beginning.

How do you know that your group is the Church?
How do you know that the spiritual gift of teaching did not continue down to today?

Scripture CANNOT be separated from it full content, Holy Tradition the full Revelation God gave to man, and the Church to whom it was entrusted.

What is your proof of that? When the Lord Jesus proved things with the Bible or the Apostle Paul, did they appeal to the religious authorities for endorsement; or just say, "It is written"?
What is your proof of the authority of tradition. Now don't tell us you believe the Bible because tradition affirms the Bible, but then you believe tradition because the Bible affirms tradition.

The first Church in Jerusalem is still there, only in its fourth building since 33AD, it has had bishops of James who is recorded in scripture and ever since to the present day.

What is your proof of that? Do you have proof that Christians did not flee Jerusalem when they saw the Roman armies there?

Church at Antioch, established by Peter, Evodius was the first bishop in 53AD and the line continues to the present day.

How do you know that? How do you know Peter established the Church at Antioch and this Evodius theory? How do you know that the present line is really the Church and not a perversion?

Same can be done for Alexandria. Same for Rome up until they split in 1054, Same for Russia after the Church was established there in the 9th century.

What is your proof of that?

It does not need to be proven, but believed as scripture establishes it, and as history has witnessed.

How can you say it need not be proven and then give 2 alleged proofs? Where does the Bible establish your theories? How do you know that your version of history is true? If you want to be believed here, you had best give proof. Yes, you need proof.

Organization is irrelevant since we are not united by organization but through Christ's Body.

Call it a group or an organization -- how do you know that your group is the Church and that it is infallible?

It would be a given that both Christ and the Holy Spirit are infallible, unless you doubt that premise.

But your group is not Christ nor the Holy Spirit. How do you know that your group is infallible?

the question is not about God. It is about man. Man leaves God. God never needs to cast out. It is up to man. See the story of Adam again. Did God cast Adam out? Or did ADam sin and break the relationship?

Again you are just saying things. What is your proof for any of it? Adam made himself fig leaves. The Lord on His own initiative clothed Adam with animal skins (from which you may infer blood).

How do you know that your group is the Church?
And what is your proof that it is infallible.
When you read the NT, does your group really look like the Church there? You have simply repeated a party-line and made assertions which have no proof.

 

[Atwood]

Atwood,

It is based upon the teaching of the Apostles which some later was written down.

What is your proof of that?

It is based on the fact that I believe what the Holy Spirit gave to the Apostles is the Truth, the revelation of God to man in this Messianic Age.

Basing things on the fact that you believe proves nothing.

Christ is infallible along with the Holy Spirit.

Of course.

The Holy Spirit entrusted that gospel to the Apostles therefore the Church. The Church, Christ's Body is infallible which is how the Holy Spirit functions through Christ's Body.

What is your proof that the Church is infallible?
How do you know that your group is the Church?

All the organizations that make up the Orthodox Church are united through the same faith, the Eucharist, the same practice. The organizations are united thus IN Christ, being ontologically united with Him and sharing His uncreated energies.

What is your proof of that?

Could you explain to me just what arguement I could use to show that Christ and the Holy Spirit are fallible?

Nonsense. You are not Christ. Your group is not Christ. What is your proof that your group is infallible?

It is the very same Church that has existed from Pentecost.

Proof?

]It has held the very same Gospel from the beginning unchanged for 2000 years.

Proof?

Man has never been able to foist his innovations upon Christ's Gospel.

Men have been foisting since NT times. Galatians proves that.

It gave you the scriptures that you so badly mutilate with personal interpretations of men who lived long after the Gospel was given, and were never even taught the Gospel in the first place.

What is your proof of that? do you suppose you will be believed just for saying it?

You gave no proof that your group is the Church and no proof that it is infallible.

 

[Atwood]

you did, but needed to change the meaning of NT believer, so it fits your theory.

Proof?

it is based on the meaning of those texts from the beginning. Unfortunately for you, the Bible as you know it, was derived from Holy Tradition.

So which is it Cassian? Is the Bible true because endorsed by tradition, or is tradition true because endorse by the Bible? Do you reason in a circle?

It is only part of what the Apostles taught the early Church which is why all sola scripturist are at a loss when it comes to understanding scripture.

Let's see your proof that anything outside the Bible is God's Word, that is, anything readily available to men in general today.

One cannot extract it from its full content or context and expect to make sense of it. It was not ENTRUSTED to individuals to do with a text as they desired.

Whoever said all that? Straw man, Cassian.
Now what is your proof that when individual men read God's Word they are not responsible to obey it? How does your group get superior to the Bible?

How can one prove the source of Christ. the scriptures state that the Holy Spirit will remind the apostles what Christ taught them, and then would also lead them into all truth. That same Truth was taught to the early Church as scripture desribes and the Church, the NT Church was born on Pentecost and still exists today, even in Jerusalem.

What is your proof for all your party line?

There are 15 organizations that all belong to the Orthodox Church. The Body of Christ is all Orthodox Churches united through the Eucharist, the Body of Christ.

What is your proof of that?

It is based on the trinitarian concept of many are one. It is why all congregations are catholic, that it constitute the whole and complete Body of Christ. and the many make up the One. Same as Christ is unified with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, three is ONE. As is each believer is not the body, but all believers are the Body, many are one.

How does the fact of the Trinity prove your orthodox group is the Church, the Body of Christ? Trinity exists, therefore for the Orthodox are the Church???

It is by the same faith, from the beginning that unifies the Church, the Body of Christ. It is that Body over which Christ is the Head, and enlivened by the Holy Spirit as Scripture describes.

What is your proof that that the Orthodox are by the same faith and is the Church?

Do you believe in what Scripture states without your personal interpretation imposed upon it?

I believe what God says without the Orthodox imposing its tradition upon it.

Can you prove that the Church, the Body of Christ is NOT infallible? I cannot prove it is infallible.

Then stop using your party line as proof. Give heed to the plain word of God. No where does the Bible say that the Church is infallible. The Church is everyone who trusts Christ as Savior and has thus been baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13). The Church is not any denomination.

I accept the given that Christ and the Holy Spirit would be infallible and since the Holy Spirit works through the Body of Christ, the Body is infallible.

That is a strange statement since you said above that you cannot prove it is infallible. If the Spirit works through the Church, that is no proof that it is infallible. Within the Church, throughout the centuries there have been many disagreements. It cannot be infallible.

Christ gave the authority to the Apostles who in turn entrusted it to the bishops they chose in the beginning and have succeeded since.

Now what is your proof of that one? Your meaning of bishop is no where in the NT. In the NT bishops and elders are the same thing and there was never any monarchal bishop set up by the Lord. Elders are always plural when mentioned in a city church.

in Philippians 1:6
"he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

No present tense used. Past beginning . . . future security.

 

[Atwood]

You deliberately left out a big verse just to prove your point
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

If does not mean "if and only if."

Since eternal security implies that Christians are secure in their salvation forever, then they continue in the faith.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

 

[Atwood]

Atwood,
huge unfounded assertion. Where is our proof that I have put human tradition above the word of God. What tradition, by what man?

I thought you admitted that the proof of your beliefs was that it was the party line of your group. If that is not so, clarify.

Augustine, Darby & Calvin are irrelevant. I am surprised if you reject Anselm. But the Word of God is what counts, not a lot of verbiage by either you or me.

You post a lot of verbiage without Bible proof, which thus is irrelevant.
If you want to prove something from 1 Cor 15, quote it and have at it.

a host of texts that state emphatically that believers had lost faith.

No they don't; and you haven't proven it by quoting scripture. Prove it or give up on it. Realize that as you post a bunch of words, you prove nothing.[/QUOTE]

Luke 21:31-32
Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you*, that he might sift you* as wheat: but I made supplication for you, that your faith fail not; and do you, when once you have turned again, establish your brethren.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.


Rom 4:16

For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God who justifies;
who is he who condemns?
It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

2 thes 2:16-17
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.