It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[RickyZ]

OK Rick; its a hot line drive into the ground in front of the short stop. He fearlessly charges the ball; grabs it, steps on 2nd (runner out), then he rifles it to first base dead on target. First baseman misses it & it hits the 1st base coach in the teeth, bouncing back to first baseman who steps on the plate just before the runner gets there!

Rick, Where have you bean? I has done quoted Heb 6:9 back on this one so many times now. Keep reading through verse 9 where it is explained. The apostates were not saved; just professors; everything said could be said of Judas. The apostates did not have the better things which accompany salvation.

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:


apostasy is a fact of life. People profess, they "join the church," they are among the community of Christians. They they deny the faith and go away. That proves they were never really in the Body of Christ.

1 John 2 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

If your nephew apostatized, that is nothing new, and it only illustrates what 1 John tells us.

Rick, are you ready to trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny now? Can you call on Him in faith and ask Him for a transformation, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life right now, depending on Him and His work on the cross for eternal life?

Hebrews 6 [SUP]4 [/SUP]It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age[SUP]6 [/SUP]and who have fallen[SUP][c][/SUP] away, to be brought back to repentance.

I'm sorry but what part of that does not say saved? You can't be enlightened, taste the gifts, share in the Holy Spirit, or taste the goodness of God and His power, or fall away from all that, without it.

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:

That's speaking to a whole different group of people and situations than verses 4 - 6. You're mixing apples and oranges, and coming up with lemons.

Rick, are you ready to trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny now? Can you call on Him in faith and ask Him for a transformation, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life right now, depending on Him and His work on the cross for eternal life??

Again, with the assumption that anyone who disagrees with you must be unsaved. HUGE red flag! Kinda says false prophet to me.

No offense; and did the big colorful letters help you understand it?

Steeerrike 3! You're out.

 

[Kerry]

On the doctrine of eternal security, one needs to focus on direct statement on the subject. Then you can figure out how stories fit in. King Saul, IMHO, was saved. It says the Lord changed him and gave him a different heart, though that may apply to being courageous and kinglike, instead of shy hiding in the baggage all the time. The Spirit left Saul and a demon or unclean spirit tormented him. In OT persons had no guarantee of the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The special filling power of the Spirit is not permanent in any age. What gives me hope for Saul is that Samuel, having come up from the dead (peculiar story), told Saul that tomorrow Saul would be with him. (Saul died next day.)

Adam chosen by God? I don't know where the Bible uses such language. Adam was created without sin as good. Adam was not chosen out from a group of unsaved persons and regenerated as we think of a person being chosen. He is no example of losing salvation, for he never had it at the start. He didn't need saving as he was not sinful.

Balaam is a peculiar story also, hardly something to build doctrine on by itself. I think it is debated whether or not he was originally a prophet of YHWH or an idolatrous prophet that the Lord used anyway. It looks like he dealt with hocus pocus, enchantments at the start, but quit. In the story the Word of God was even in a donkey's mouth, and the Lord gave prophecy through a real skunk called Caiaphas in the life of Christ.

Apparently Balaam could not utter false prophecy, but he wanted money offered for it. So he gave shrewd evil advice to Balak, telling him that if King Balak wanted Israel cursed, the way to do it was to send some women around for fornication. And it partly worked, though Balaam got himself killed in the process.

Okay, you are what you are. Adam not chosen by God? He made him for goodness sake. You will squirm and twist. Balaam spoke the word of God did he not? King Saul was chosen and Samuel poured the horn of oil over him and he prophesied with the prophets. Then to deny that God gave him a new heart oh it was a new heart to be king. Come give me a break. What a cop out.

It is amazing to me that when someone sees the truth in their face, how hard they will work to support their man made doctrine.

 

[Atwood]

Hebrews 6 [SUP]4 [/SUP]It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age[SUP]6 [/SUP]and who have fallen[SUP][c][/SUP] away, to be brought back to repentance.

I'm sorry but what part of that does not say saved? You can't be enlightened, taste the gifts, share in the Holy Spirit, or taste the goodness of God and His power, or fall away from all that, without it.

That's speaking to a whole different group of people and situations than verses 4 - 6. You're mixing apples and oranges, and coming up with lemons. . . . the assumption that anyone who disagrees with you must be unsaved.

No assumption. If a persons does not claim that Christ is his Savior, he is unsaved. If a person says that Christ has given him merely a chance at salvation, then Christ is not his Savior. He who does not trust Christ with his eternal destiny, does not trust Him as Savior.

The part that says that the group in 6:4-6 never was saved is 6:9. It is absurd to say that 6:9 does not identify the preceding apostates.

4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: 8 but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak."

The "thus speak, refers to the apostates in 6:4-8. Did you stop at 6:6 to avoid the identification? Vs 7 starts with "For" an explanatory conjunction explaining the preceding. Vs 8 continues Vs 7 giving the parallel, which applies to 4:4-6. Vs 9 explains that the "thus speak" (6:4-8) refers to those who did not measure up to salvation. 6:9 explains the lemons.

Beware of talking yourself into not trusting the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny. Give it up; He has done so very much, shedding His precious blood, to give you free eternal life, a never perish security. Trust Him for it. He likes to be trusted.

 

[Atwood]

SALVATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IS NOT AN ISOLATED VERSE HERE OR THERE.

Some claimed: "using Scripture here and there and justifying ignorant faith in non-completion"

Next the criticism will be that the post was too long. Anyone who charges me on this subject of just usimg Scripture here and there, a few verses in isolation must either be a crass distorter of the truth, or blind, or given to shooting from the hip without reading posts. I don't think this system will receive all the verses I have on this subject. But I will post Romans again on salvation (only) for faith -- nothing added, hardly isolated verses; maybe I will have room also for Galatians. The evidence is overwhelming. Now after this, if one still claims there are not enough verses, I can paste a lot more.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believes on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he that believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith saith thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.


Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.

 

[Atwood]

Okay, you are what you are. Adam not chosen by God? He made him for goodness sake. You will squirm and twist. Balaam spoke the word of God did he not? King Saul was chosen and Samuel poured the horn of oil over him and he prophesied with the prophets. Then to deny that God gave him a new heart oh it was a new heart to be king. Come give me a break. What a cop out.
It is amazing to me that when someone sees the truth in their face, how hard they will work to support their man made doctrine.

You give no scripture. I squirm not nor twist at far-fetched arguments which say nothing about "chosen" or salvation or eternal life or losing "salvation." If you have a verse about Adam begin chosen, quote it. Adam is certainly never said to be saved before he sinned. That is nonsense. He wasn't sinful, so he wasn't saved. The language isn't even used in the story. I like to think that Adam did get saved as indicated with the shedding of blood, killing animals, and covering Adam with the skins. But there is no statement about his salvation; and no where in the Bible is anyone ever said to lose salvation.

Saul was chosen to be King; not the same thing as being chosen to be a child of God. You need a verse that asserts that Saul was saved. There are none that say he lost salvation, not even a category in the Bible. You need to stop basing doctrine on uncertain interpretations of stories. Go with what the word actually says on the subject.

Why be desperate and grasp at straws to see if you can find some way to talk yourself out of receiving the free gift of eternal life? You are invited to cop in, not out. There's room at the cross for you.

He gives to his sheep eternal life, and they never perish.

That is indeed repugnant to a self-righteous sinner.

 

[Atwood]

I'm sure this conversation has moved far from the OP by this point, but I am a former Christian. I used to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and now I don't. A lot of people doubt that -- some reasonably because my personal thoughts and beliefs from a long time ago can't be sufficiently proven, and some unreasonably by committing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy by arguing that I must not have been a "true Christian".

When I was a Christian, I believed that I couldn't possibly lose my belief. But losing it was the proof, on top of the doubts I already had, that the bible was not completely true. And why shouldn't it be possible? If you can change your belief from disbelieving God to believing in God, why would it be impossible to do the opposite?

We can't prove any doctrine based on you testimony, the testimony of an apostate. It is no fallacy to believe as 1 John indicates that those who leave prove that they were never part of the Body of Christ, never saved. Why could it, why would it, why should it. Irrelevant. What is relevant is what the Word of God says.

But what do you care? Why argue about it? Did someone send you here to make unbiblical claims?

Biblically people can lose belief in some fact; but not stop trusting the Lord Jesus once they began trusting Him.

 

[Atwood]

How Many Kinds of Faith Are There?

Someone has been going on that there is only 1 kind of faith. But the Greek word for faith actually has a number of meanings, as any Greek lexicon (dictionary) will demonstrate. It is amazing how people just up and say things about theology or the Bible, without a shred of proof.

Taking two of the meanings, there is a faith which is a trust in the Lord Jesus with one's present life & eternal destiny.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

Then there is a belief of facts (no trust) like the faith that James says demons have in James 2. And James mocks that kind of faith. It is ineffective in securing salvation. The Demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God, as many unsaved do. But they do not trust Him as their Savior.

You believe that God is one; you do well, the demons also believe and shudder.

In examining James teaching on justification in James 2 one needs to keep in mind the kind of faith described in content as not saving faith. But more on that below in another post. I already did a post on this; but someone wants to go on about it.

 

[know1]

I'm sure this conversation has moved far from the OP by this point, but I am a former Christian. I used to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and now I don't. A lot of people doubt that -- some reasonably because my personal thoughts and beliefs from a long time ago can't be sufficiently proven, and some unreasonably by committing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy by arguing that I must not have been a "true Christian".

When I was a Christian, I believed that I couldn't possibly lose my belief. But losing it was the proof, on top of the doubts I already had, that the bible was not completely true. And why shouldn't it be possible? If you can change your belief from disbelieving God to believing in God, why would it be impossible to do the opposite?

Actually, you fall in line with what the bible does say.
One can lose their salvation.
How do we receive Christ, but by His word which is truth. If you reject the truth, which again, is His word, then you reject Christ, for Christ is the truth.
The parable of the sower sowing seed in the various types of soil proves that.
So basically, you just disproved OSAS, not the bible.

 

[Atwood]

JAMES VS PAUL ON JUSTIFICATION

I gave a rather through answer to the question of James' teaching on justification (James 2) vs Paul's teaching above; but someone want to continue on it, adding nothing knew nor rebutting what I posted either. So I repeat here and add some more comment.

James 2 has a passage which on first glance looks like he is in direct contradiction to Paul on justification, James saying that justification is by works. All of the Bible is the Word of God, and it all fits together some way. The odd passage must conform to the abundance of other passages on the same subject, all of which agree with each other quite clearly. James 2 is the odd man out, at first glance. Thus one starts out knowing from the rest of scripture that justification of the sinner at conversion only by faith, nothing else; works are directly said to be excluded from a cause of salvation.

The next step is to read James carefully and realize that James speaks about the faith of demons, the faith that is in facts, not trust in Christ at the getgo of the passage. Then one needs to realize that justify as a declaration of righteousness applies first to the sinner at the point of conversion by faith in Christ. But James uses justification also for the declaration that the Christian (even long after being converted) is declared righteous when the Christian does some good work which is the fruit of the Spirit. And that is also true, but not a matter of salvation. The Justification of a sinner at conversion is only by faith, not works. The sinner who just trusts Christ as Savior has no good works.

Justification is not exactly the same thing as salvation. Justification means a declaration of righteousness. Let us not interpret James as contradicting himself in James 2. First He says:
"Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, just as Paul does.

A sinner is declared righteous simply by faith in the Lord Jesus, as righteousness is imputed to him for belonging to Christ (Romans 5). Before a man is saved, he is dead in trespasses and sins; nothing he does is good, he is not declared righteous (justified) until by he puts His trust in the Savior and is transformed to a child of God.

But after a man is saved, he can do good works which can be declared righteous; and when a born again man does good works, those works declare that he is righteous, justified in that work as in the instance of Abe offering Isaac, and Rahab helping the spies escape. The text never says that Rahab was saved by helping the spies escape. If she had not been saved before helping them escape, it would not have been a good work, since regarding men in general before salvation, there is none who does good, no not one.

When Abraham first believed YHWH, then without any works he was declared righteous by faith. Having become a saved man, then he was able to do good works. So when he offered up Isaac many years after he was saved, that act was a means of justification, a declaration of righteousness. It was not a means of salvation, for Abe was saved long before the Isaac offering.

But since God's standard is perfection (Ye shall be perfect as the Heavenly father is perfect) and since in many ways the Christian stumbles, the Christian's entire life even as a Christian would not be given a verdict of righteous based on works, though when he does a good work, the fruit of the Spirit, in that work he is declared righteous or justified.

This justification is not salvation, but a judgment of a man in a circumstance after salvation.

Scripture is clear that salvation and the justification of a sinner is by faith in the Lord Jesus alone. Abe was not sinning when he offered up Isaac. Abe was a sinner when he trusted YHWH as His Savior. The declaration of righteousness when he first believed could not have been by works. James says he was justified by faith, just as Paul does.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved. This basic message is repeated over and over in the Bible. Faith is man's only requirement for salvation and justification by imputation of righteousness to the man who belongs to the Lord Jesus.
Surely shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness. (Isaiah 45:24)
He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

 

[know1]

How Many Kinds of Faith Are There?

Someone has been going on that there is only 1 kind of faith. But the Greek word for faith actually has a number of meanings, as any Greek lexicon (dictionary) will demonstrate. It is amazing how people just up and say things about theology or the Bible, without a shred of proof.

You are too kind sir.
I wouldn't mind if you mentioned me by name, I'm not ashamed of what I believe.
I believe there is one faith because that's what I understand, "one faith" to mean.
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

(BBE) And Jesus, answering, said to them, Have God's faith.

(DRB) And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

We have to have the same faith as Abraham in order for us to be called his children.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

There is only one kind of faith, and that is the faith of God. Faith is a spirit of and from God, even as fear is a spirit of the devil.

Num 11:17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.
Num 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

Even as God took a part of the spirit that was on Moses and gave it to the seventy elders, in like manner, we have that same spirit of faith that God gave to Abraham through Jesus Christ. That is why he is call our father, because we have of the same spirit of faith that he had.

 

[Cassian]

We can't prove any doctrine based on you testimony, the testimony of an apostate. It is no fallacy to believe as 1 John indicates that those who leave prove that they were never part of the Body of Christ, never saved. Why could it, why would it, why should it. Irrelevant. What is relevant is what the Word of God says.

But what do you care? Why argue about it? Did someone send you here to make unbiblical claims?

Biblically people can lose belief in some fact; but not stop trusting the Lord Jesus once they began trusting Him.

Your theology cannot be justified by scripture which is painfully being shown by the theological gymnastics you need to jump through to force it upon scripture.

As I stated before, your kind of definition of faith works ONLY in a predestined system of theology. If one believed, then obviously they were predestined to believe and thus cannot fall from that status. Scripture however is clearly teaching that many believers do and can fall from faith. So, consequently you need to fabricate all these new definitions regarding fatih, apostacy, falling away, were never really saved which ends up being most that supposely believed, but you need to classify them differently since a "true" predestined believer cannot fall away. It should be obvious to you that OSAS is NOT a scriptural teaching, but a purely Calvinistic, predestined teaching which does not exist in scripture.

This is why you really don't confuse the difference between the law of works or law of faith, you need all works to be the same, worthless toward "salvation" actually eternal life, because your theology demands it. Your belief is driven by the theory, not scripture itself.

Your theology cannot deal with the Book of James, because it violates your theological perspective of predestination. Luther could not accept it because it violated his pet theory of "faith alone" and Calvinism cannot because it denies OSAS.

Biblically people can lose belief in some fact; but not stop trusting the Lord Jesus once they began trusting Him.

in the light of scripture, this has to be the most absurd and contradictory statement yet stated by you.

 

[Atwood]

No Hand Can Ever Hold You Like These Hand of Mine

There is an old song sung by Pat Boone, Bobby Vinton, the Bachelors, The Lettermen, and no doubt others, a beautiful love song. Many love songs with slight modification can be sung to the Lord Jesus.

Try this one as an Eternal Security Song:

No arms can ever hold you like these arms of mine,
No heart can ever love you like this heart of mine,
My dreams could all come true if you'll trust in me,
This love that I feel for you, was just meant to be.

No hand can ever hold you like this hand of mine,
No one can ever offer, what I offer you,
My heart my love are yours till the end of time,
No arms will ever hold you like these arms of mine.

No marks can ever love you like these marks of mine,
No one can ever offer, what I offer you,
My heart my love are yours till the end of time.
No arms can ever hold ou like these arms of mine.

YouTube Link below:
The Bachelors - No Arms Can Ever Hold You - 1965 - YouTube

 

[Atwood]

in the light of scripture, this has to be the most absurd and contradictory statement yet stated by you.

Biblically people can lose belief in some fact; but not stop trusting the Lord Jesus once they began trusting Him.

Dear Cassian just says things, so they need little response, as we are not believers in Sola Cassiana or his sayings. God's Word settles arguments.

It is not contradictory at all nor absurd. There is a vast difference between believing facts (like demons do about Christ) and trusting Him as savior; faith as trust. the demons believe and tremble
as James says -- it does neither them nor Cassian any good without trust in the Savior. People change factual beliefs and religions all the time.

As to James vs Paul, I explained that in a separate post twice now.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: but I made supplication for thee, that thy faith fail not; and do thou, when once thou hast turned again, establish thy brethren.

No where, but no where in scripture does it ever say that anyone who trusts Christ as Savior, may stop trusting Him as Savior & end up damned.

 

[Atwood]

the Book of James, . . . it denies OSAS.

Thus saith Cassian.
What is your proof of that, Cassian? Where does James deny Eternal Security??? Prove or retract.

 

[Atwood]

Some Claimed How James Contradicted OSAS
(with no scriptural proof).

Let's look at some interesting James statements:

1A) But if any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing doubting:

1B) the demons believe & tremble.

These 2 verses prove that James knows of 2 kinds of faith
1A = trust, 1B = factually convinced something is so.

2) Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Was James a Calvinist?

3) ye commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all.

James rejected salvation by law keeping, as he says in many ways we all stumble & also that if you stumble in one point, you are guilty of all.

4) and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.

James believed that Abe was justified by faith.

5) Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient over it, until it receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Murmur not, brethren, one against another, that ye be not judged: behold, the judge standeth before the doors.

James believed that Christ's coming was imminent.

There are no verses that deny eternal security in James.

 

[Alligator]

Hebrews 6 [SUP]4 [/SUP]It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age[SUP]6 [/SUP]and who have fallen[SUP][c][/SUP] away, to be brought back to repentance.

I'm sorry but what part of that does not say saved? You can't be enlightened, taste the gifts, share in the Holy Spirit, or taste the goodness of God and His power, or fall away from all that, without it.



That's speaking to a whole different group of people and situations than verses 4 - 6. You're mixing apples and oranges, and coming up with lemons.




Again, with the assumption that anyone who disagrees with you must be unsaved. HUGE red flag! Kinda says false prophet to me.

No offense; and did the big colorful letters help you understand it?

Steeerrike 3! You're out.

[/FONT]
No assumption. If a persons does not claim that Christ is his Savior, he is unsaved. If a person says that Christ has given him merely a chance at salvation, then Christ is not his Savior. He who does not trust Christ with his eternal destiny, does not trust Him as Savior.

The part that says that the group in 6:4-6 never was saved is 6:9. It is absurd to say that 6:9 does not identify the preceding apostates.

[/SIZE]4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: 8 but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak."

The "thus speak, refers to the apostates in 6:4-8. Did you stop at 6:6 to avoid the identification? Vs 7 starts with "For" an explanatory conjunction explaining the preceding. Vs 8 continues Vs 7 giving the parallel, which applies to 4:4-6. Vs 9 explains that the "thus speak" (6:4-8) refers to those who did not measure up to salvation. 6:9 explains the lemons.

Beware of talking yourself into not trusting the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny. Give it up; He has done so very much, shedding His precious blood, to give you free eternal life, a never perish security. Trust Him for it. He likes to be trusted.

Atwood you can go all night if you want but you will never get Heb. 6:9 to say what you are trying to,force it to say. Anyone with an elementary school education can see Heb. 6:3-4 is talking about Christians. You are a false teacher, plain and simple, and you are obsessed with it.

 

[Atwood]

Who Is Doing It?

What then shall we say to these things?
If God is for us,
who is against us?

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all,
how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?

Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?

It is God that justifieth;
who is he that condemneth?

Who is that rascal?

 

[Atwood]

Atwood you . . . you . . . you . . . You . . . you

Well, Alligator, you say what you say, but I believe what the Word of God says:

For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: 8 but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak."

 

[Atwood]

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith

It is not talking about kinds of faith or only 1 kind. All Christians have one trust in the Lord Jesus and also 1 basic content of belief. That does not deny that the word pistis has a variety of meanings, one being the belief of demons, which is none of the above.

A bunch of verses were quoted which proved nothing.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Great verse, saying nothing about the different meanings of faith.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Great verse for eternal security! But irrelevant to the nonsense of claiming that pistis has only one meaning, only 1 kind -- nonsense.

 

[Atwood]

Someone keeps arguing that there is only 1 kind of faith.

James doesn't agree with that; neither does the Greek dictionary.

1A) But if any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing doubting:

1B) the demons believe & tremble.

These 2 verses prove that James knows of 2 kinds of faith
1A = trust, 1B = factually convinced something is so.