It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Atwood]

you have no sense of reasoning. Is the writer writing to saved or unsaved people? The teaching here is sound doctrine not an evangelical message. Since there is no middle ground it is either one or the other or both. So to be safe let us say it is both saved and unsaved he is writing to. Do you think this will make any sense to an unsaved person?....what will be the point? What unsaved person does the will of God? Which unsaved person lives by faith? How can an unsaved person draw back? If any man draw back his soul will have no pleasure in him, stands to reason if any man does not draw back his soul will have pleasure in him. . . .

[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Dear NewB,

It is sad to converse with such a one who seems so insistent on not trusting Christ as Savior.
The writer is writing to a real group of human beings. I take it they are those who claim that Jesus is their Messiah in Jerusalem. In any real group of humans in any local church, there are both saved and unsaved (persons who do not trust the Lord Jesus with their destiny). He writes professed Christians, some of which will be saved and some unsaved. I take the "we" in the passage to mean the writer and anyone else who actually trusts the Lord Jesus with his eternal destiny.

Yes, a man is either a saint or an ain't. But among the unsaved there are various types: from satanists, to self-righteous pretenders of Christianity, to holy wives and children of saved persons (Rom 7) -- yes the wife of a saved man is "holy," something set apart as special, even if not saved. Then I take it from Heb 6 that there is a special class of the unsaved who were enlightened too much but never trusted Christ as Savior, men who are so hard that they will never be saved (though I would not say I knew that such was the case about anyone. Are you one of these? Or are you discovering the truth now?).

IMHO:
there are men who are like Israel at Kadesh-Barnea, at the point of entry to the Promised Land. The Lord Jesus told a man that he was not far from the Kingdom. Some are at a cross roads, under conviction.

The just live by faith. They are a different group from the any man who draws back. I realize you may think that the any man there refers to the just, but it does not. This is a strange passage in its construction. The verse about the just & drawing back comes from the OT. The Greek OT is much as this verse except for one thing, Hebrews presents two expressions out of OT order. (I can't call anything in Greek a quote of Hebrew; it may be a translation, an allusion, or the gist of the passage. So I may speak of "quote," when it really is not technically a quote.)

Here is the Greek OT translated into English:

If he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him:
but the just shall live by my faith.

Hebrews is evidently making 2 separate "quotes." First He "quotes" the 2nd half of the verse, and then the 1st half of the verse. Thus, in view of the following explanation "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition, but of them who believe to the saving of the soul," one should not identify the just who live by faith with the back-shrinkers. The explanation of why this differs quite a bit with our Hebrew original (see Habakkuk 2:3) language text is another matter, which I have not studied in depth. But vs 9 remains clear.

At any rate, I won't tell you to go and say 100 hail Marys, but I will recommend reading over & over this verse until it sinks in:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Given Before Times Eternal. Does 2 Timothy 1 Imply Eternal Security?

you can look all day but you will find no text that supports OSAS.

Not "OSAS," but OSS = Once Saved, Saved.
The POV that once you are saved, you are indeed saved, aka Eternal Security.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ps 138

"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.

Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus


Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Given Before Times Eternal. Does 2 Timothy 1 Imply Eternal Security?

The bible says, faith is a spirit of God, like fear is a spirit of the devil,

know, you need to prove that one or retract. I have no idea from where you got such a notion. As to believe and faith, I quoted the Greek lexicon for both pisteuo and pistis. I also plastered the forum with verses that say believing and faith save. Read the verses if you wish.

At what point is one saved?
As I stated in other posts, I must have said the sinner's prayer at least 5 times, because I didn't believe I was save due to habitual sins.

I think like myself some times, you must have accidentally left some words out or gotten something out of order at the end of that sentence. It doesn't quite make sense to me.
Now "saying the sinners' prayer" is not what the Bible says to do to get saved.
It says Believe on the Lord Jesus [Christ], and you shall be saved.
You may express that faith in a call to the Lord for salvation.
By the Lord I mean the Lord Jesus, 2nd person of the Trinity, God become man, who died and rose again.

Do you have enough faith to call out the following sincerely?:

Lord Jesus, please save me, change me, make me a child of God, forgive me of my sins, and give me your gift of eternal life. I do now trust you as my only & sufficient Savior, & I depend on your death on the cross to pay for all my sins.

I think you say you doubted you were saved because of habitual sins. Well habitual sins is a grounds for doubting that you really trusted Christ as Savior, if you mean persistent gross sin. But all Christians stumble in many things. All our sins were paid for on the cross. But if we are saved, then we are saved from being a slave of sin and living in sin. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein.

If you are saved, you became saved when you repented from not trusting Christ to trusting Him. And you may not know for sure when you did that, as our memories are faulty. But right now, if you died are you sure that the Lord Jesus would take you to Heaven. And is your confidence grounded on the fact that He paid for your sins on the cross? And do you really trust Him fully with your eternal destiny, not just giving you a chance to get to Heaven, but really saving you with a blessed, guaranteed eternity of bliss with Him?
[/QUOTE]

 

[newbirth]

Dear NewB,

It is sad to converse with such a one who seems so insistent on not trusting Christ as Savior.
The writer is writing to a real group of human beings. I take it they are those who claim that Jesus is their Messiah in Jerusalem. In any real group of humans in any local church, there are both saved and unsaved (persons who do not trust the Lord Jesus with their destiny). He writes professed Christians, some of which will be saved and some unsaved. I take the "we" in the passage to mean the writer and anyone else who actually trusts the Lord Jesus with his eternal destiny.

Yes, a man is either a saint or an ain't. But among the unsaved there are various types: from satanists, to self-righteous pretenders of Christianity, to holy wives and children of saved persons (Rom 7) -- yes the wife of a saved man is "holy," something set apart as special, even if not saved. Then I take it from Heb 6 that there is a special class of the unsaved who were enlightened too much but never trusted Christ as Savior, men who are so hard that they will never be saved (though I would not say I knew that such was the case about anyone. Are you one of these? Or are you discovering the truth now?).

IMHO:
there are men who are like Israel at Kadesh-Barnea, at the point of entry to the Promised Land. The Lord Jesus told a man that he was not far from the Kingdom. Some are at a cross roads, under conviction.

The just live by faith. They are a different group from the any man who draws back. I realize you may think that the any man there refers to the just, but it does not. This is a strange passage in its construction. The verse about the just & drawing back comes from the OT. The Greek OT is much as this verse except for one thing, Hebrews presents two expressions out of OT order. (I can't call anything in Greek a quote of Hebrew; it may be a translation, an allusion, or the gist of the passage. So I may speak of "quote," when it really is not technically a quote.)

Here is the Greek OT translated into English:

If he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him:
but the just shall live by my faith.

Hebrews is evidently making 2 separate "quotes." First He "quotes" the 2nd half of the verse, and then the 1st half of the verse. Thus, in view of the following explanation "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition, but of them who believe to the saving of the soul," one should not identify the just who live by faith with the back-shrinkers. The explanation of why this differs quite a bit with our Hebrew original (see Habakkuk 2:3) language text is another matter, which I have not studied in depth. But vs 9 remains clear.

At any rate, I won't tell you to go and say 100 hail Marys, but I will recommend reading over & over this verse until it sinks in:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Your response to what was stated and nothing is the same... can a man who is not saved draw back? and if he can to where? If a man draw back where is he drawing back from? You are sidestepping the question ."that there is a special class of the unsaved" you make me laugh....But among the unsaved there are various types....where do you get these things. There you go again pinching a piece of scripture to decieve.....
1Cor 7
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

 

[Alligator]

Re: Old Water Baptism Canard: Water Baptism Does Not Save.

But he died after the law ended. So you admit that the thief had eternal security from the moment the Lord Jesus told him, Truly this day you shall be in paradise with me. At any rate, there are not different ways to be saved in the Bible. It had ever been to believe on YHWH and be saved, though refined to the 2nd person of the Trinity after more revelation.
The thief went to paradise.
When was he baptized?

Note that the Lord Jesus baptized during his earthly ministry (by the disciples), and there is nothing said about it being a temporary baptism or anyone being dunked in the water after Acts 2 who had already been baptised. Quote a verse to prove your temporary theory. How can it be temporary if it is to fulfill all righteousness?

You are making up your temporary theory.



Nonsense. In the Great commission he says "I am with you always," so He is here during the execution of the Great Commission down to today.



It is good that we agree on something, Alligator.

Alligator, the few times that baptize is used in a salvation context contrast with the multitude where salvation is offered for believe/faith and no other action by man.

The few times that Baptize is used in a salvation context, water is never mentioned.

The baptism of the Spirit is something all believers enjoy (1 Cor 12:13) and it puts us into the Body of Christ. It is salvific, but it is not something man does; everyone gets this gift who trusts Christ as SAvior. One does not decide to submit to it or not.

However, you figure it out, baptism cannot be essential since there is a multitude of offers of salvation in the Bible just for believing/faith.

t

Of course I admit the thief was saved. Christ said he was. It would be really stupid for me to questio
Christ, would it not?
What you don't realize is the Christ had the power to do what he wanted while on earth including forgiving sins. See Mark chapter 2 verses one through 12. After the death of Christ, his will and testament became effective and that is what we're bound by today. You asked when/if the thief was baptized? I don't know and neither do you. It is all irrelevant as I described earlier.

as far as the baptism of John the Baptist Ending, the great commission in Matthew chapter 28 which was the last instructions he gave to the apostles. It stands to reason that that takes precedence over the temporary baptism of John. Also if Ephesians 4:5 says there is now one baptism. Surely you don't believe that baptism is john's?

when Christ gave the great commission in Matt. chapter 28, it should be readily apparent to you that he is addressing the apostles .

It's amazing to me how you always try to force Spirit baptism into passages that deal with water. Acts 2:38. IPet. 3:21; Mark 16:15-16, etc, etc.

The Bible is not throwing out baptism. You are. It sounds as though you're theory says that if one verse outnumbers another verse on a given subject, the one with the most wins out. So you just eliminate any passagesthat deal with baptism for salvation.

Everyone receives the Holy Spirit upon being baptized. But they do not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. As I said earlier, it was only given to the apostles and the Cornelius household. it not for us today.

 

[Atwood]

Is Mt 1:21 The Strongest Eternal Security Vs in the Bible?

thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Old Water Baptism Canard: Water Baptism Does Not Save.

"After the death of Christ, his will and testament became effective and that is what we're bound by today."

Prove it.

as far as the baptism of John the Baptist Ending,

Where does the Bible say that the baptism of John is not continuous with Christian water baptism?
Where does scripture say that it ended?
Now it does contrast with the Baptism of the Spirit.

the great commission in Matthew chapter 28 which was the last instructions he gave to the apostles.

Proof? Have you read Galatians 1-2? Have you read Acts 9? Who told Peter to kill & eat in Acts?

Also if Ephesians 4:5 says there is now one baptism.

The passage is not counting baptisms, but saying all Christians have the same baptism.

It's amazing to me how you always try to force Spirit baptism into passages that deal with water. Acts 2:38. IPet. 3:21; Mark 16:15-16, etc, etc.

If you have water, quote the water. Where is all this etc. etc. Verses on salvation that have baptism in them are rare. And the fact that salvation is offered just for believing so many times without any mention of baptism proves that water baptism is not essential to salvation. Moreover works are forbidden to trust for salvation. It is not I that throw out water baptism as saving, it is the Word of God. "not of works, lest anyone should boast."

I don't throw out water baptism, but neither do I teach anyone salvation by works. Holy Spirit baptism is salvific. And it is the baptism that specially characterizes the work of the Lord Jesus.

they do not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. As I said earlier, it was only given to the apostles and the Cornelius household. it not for us today.

That is just you saying it. Alligator, you haven't one verse to prove that one.

1 Cor 12:13 says that all were baptized of the Spirit. And this was long after Pentecost.
Rom 6 speaks of being baptized into Christ, which makes sense as the same thing, since Baptism of the Spirit puts us into the Church, the Body of Christ.

If you want to get killed, grab hold of a high voltage line.
If you want your Old Man killed, grab hold of the line back to the cross of Christ and be nailed there with Him by being baptized into Christ (Rom 6).

Then you may say, "I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. (Gal 2:20).

You have to get that Old Man crucified. The only way to do it is to repent of trusting in water and trust in the Lord Jesus as your only & sufficient Savior.

thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

(Now dear audience, He really will, if only you will trust Him.)

 

[Timeline]

1 John 5:5-8
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? [SUP]6 [/SUP]This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For there are three that testify: [SUP]8 [/SUP]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Matthew 3:13-17
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then Jesus *arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he *permitted Him. [SUP]16 [/SUP]After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

1 Timothy 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Tell me. If Jesus, being perfect, was baptized into water, then why do you teach that we should not be baptized in water. Now I do agree that it is the baptism in the Holy Spirit that saves, but I certainly do not believe that you should teach people not to be baptized in water.

I don't believe in scenarios where someone dies on the way to be baptized in water...and in turn are not saved - God is more powerful than that. But I do believe that we should be baptized in water as we received the example from Jesus, Paul, and those that the Apostles baptized (in water).

 

[Atwood]

Tell me. If Jesus, being perfect, was baptized into water, then why do you teach that we should not be baptized in water. Now I do agree that it is the baptism in the Holy Spirit that saves, but I certainly do not believe that you should teach people not to be baptized in water.

Timeline, I have never told anyone not to be baptized in water. I have objected to trusting in water for salvation, instead of in the Savior alone. By all means, a new believer should be baptized, ASAP. I objected to Campus Crusade neglecting water baptism.

(Digression, but I do teach that the Law of Moses is over and that we ought not to be keeping the Law of Moses, impossible anyway -- but the Lord Jesus did, as it was still in force until the cross.)

Timeline, I think what misled you was reading someone's else's false accusation -- this is called gossip and judging -- LOL. I have been amazed in life at how very effective bad-mouthing people behind their back can be. It is called "poisoning the well." People believe the slander.

 

[Cassian]

Re: Given Before Times Eternal. Does 2 Timothy 1 Imply Eternal Security?

Not "OSAS," but OSS = Once Saved, Saved.
The POV that once you are saved, you are indeed saved, aka Eternal Security.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ps 138

"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.

Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus


Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

You can cite the entire Bible but you cannot find a text that says man is incapable of losing faith. However, you will find hundreds that say he can lose faith.

By your listings I would presume that you believe one can ONLY be saved if they believe, have faith. So, where is the text that either says man is incapable of losing faith, or that faith is actually not a requirement for attaining eternal life.

All of these citations have conditions attached to them. You are doing a masterful job at reputiating most of scripture, some it is, though serious, is actually quite humorous.

 

[Timeline]

Timeline, I have never told anyone not to be baptized in water. I have objected to trusting in water for salvation, instead of in the Savior alone. By all means, a new believer should be baptized, ASAP. I objected to Campus Crusade neglecting water baptism.

(Digression, but I do teach that the Law of Moses is over and that we ought not to be keeping the Law of Moses, impossible anyway -- but the Lord Jesus did, as it was still in force until the cross.)

Timeline, I think what misled you was reading someone's else's false accusation -- this is called gossip and judging -- LOL. I have been amazed in life at how very effective bad-mouthing people behind their back can be. It is called "poisoning the well." People believe the slander.

I also believe that we are not under the Law of Moses - though we do some of it through guidance of the Holy Spirit. Doing some of the very same things, though not being under the Law. And I do understand, and agree that every Christians should not feel as though there salvation teadors (? - obviously don't know how that's spelled) on every "sin" and "good" deed. It is good to understand the security that is in Jesus Christ - and there is security. I just think that OSAS takes it too far. I do believe that, after accepting Jesus, we can turn (not that the security is not there, but that we deny it/Him) and walk away. It is not a tightrope, where we can fall at any second.

And I do believe that Jesus will come for us if we stray. But I do not believe that He will force us. We see in the story of Jonah that God subjects him to discomfort, pain, and misery and then Jonah does what God told him to do. But today, I see many people that I am not so sure they would comply even after this horrific experience (but I could be wrong).

 

[know1]

Re: Given Before Times Eternal. Does 2 Timothy 1 Imply Eternal Security?

know, you need to prove that one or retract. I have no idea from where you got such a notion. As to believe and faith, I quoted the Greek lexicon for both pisteuo and pistis. I also plastered the forum with verses that say believing and faith save. Read the verses if you wish.

Okay, I'll do it for you again.
This is rehash info.
How are we Abraham's children?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of [the same] faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of [the same] faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
We are the children of Abraham through the same spirit of faith that was on him. At least some spirits have the ability to multiply themselves. The spirit of faith is one of them. We cannot be his offspring except we have to have something in us that came from him. Even as God is our Father because we have His Spirit in us.
Num 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took [a part] of the spirit that was upon him (Moses), and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
It is the law of Genesis. Everything produces after its own kind.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Remember, the word and law of God is spiritual, and the law of Genesis applies to the spirit world as much as it does ours.
Spirits can procreate themselves like trees, as was the case of Moses and the seventy elders. As every tree produces seed after its own kind. The same holds true with the spirits. A spirit of faith will produce little seeds or offspring of faith.

2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; According to the bible, faith is a spirit. It puts its seed/offspring in your heart when you hear the truth of God's word or the gospel.
The word of God says we are born again by the word of God.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The word of God is alive, and it is of and from Jesus. It is through the word of God abiding in our hearts, that we are called the children of God. If the word doesn't abide in us, then neither does Jesus, which is how we receive Him by faith. When we agree with the truth, the truth/Jesus comes in our hearts. When we agree with a lie of the devil, it too comes in your heart. The same holds true with the faith of Abraham.

 

[newbirth]

The forum system can't even receive (in one post) all the scripture I have to post on faith saving.

Note that after "baptized" it does not say "in water."
Note the 2nd part: Baptized was left out!
It does not say, "but he that is not baptized shall be damned."

Isn't it obvious if one does not believe they will not be baptized?
And if they believe they will be baptized?
You choose to disobey and encourage others to do so also

Baptized is not something a man does, but something done to him.
I baptize you with water [John], but He shall baptize you with the Spirit.

The verses mentioning baptism in a context of salvation are few;
the verses mentioned believe/faith without baptism are many, many.
Thus baptism cannot be something which a man must do to be saved.
Baptism of the Spirit is something always done by God to a man when that man believes.

If you study baptism of the Spirit, you should come to the conclusion that every believer gets that baptism (1 Cor 12:13) and that it puts you into the Body of Christ (the Church) and that it thus puts you on the cross with Christ (co-crucifixion) Rom 6, with the result that the Old Man was crucified when Christ was crucified.

I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me, and the life which i life in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God Who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness is by the law, then Christ died in vain. (see Gal 2)

Baptized does not say not in water" poor reasoning"

 

[newbirth]

Timeline, I have never told anyone not to be baptized in water. I have objected to trusting in water for salvation, instead of in the Savior alone. By all means, a new believer should be baptized, ASAP. I objected to Campus Crusade neglecting water baptism.

(Digression, but I do teach that the Law of Moses is over and that we ought not to be keeping the Law of Moses, impossible anyway -- but the Lord Jesus did, as it was still in force until the cross.)

Timeline, I think what misled you was reading someone's else's false accusation -- this is called gossip and judging -- LOL. I have been amazed in life at how very effective bad-mouthing people behind their back can be. It is called "poisoning the well." People believe the slander.

You don't have to tell them not to ,all you have to do is make it seem pointless...remember satan in the garden...you will not surly die if you eat.
do you remember this quote?

1) The Lord Jesus died before the thief died. The law ended with Christ's death. So the thief did not die under the Law.

2) There is only 1 way to be saved in all the Bible, faith in YHWH, as with Abraham, saved before circumcision (which doesn't equal baptism anyway). After revelation was received on the Trinity, faith must be in the 2nd person of the Trinity, a bit of a refinement in the requirement.

3) Water baptism was done with John the Baptist, and the Lord Jesus had persons water baptized during his ministry.

4) The Lord Jesus submitted to baptism to fulfill all righteousness, long before He died and rose.

5) The prophecy was that while John baptized with water, the Lord Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

6) In Acts 1 the Baptism of the Spirit was predicted to happen soon.

7) On Pentecost Acts 2 Baptism of the Spirit occurred, forming the Church, the Body of Christ.

Heb 9 doesn't say anyone is saved by baptism.

The few times that baptism is associated with salvation are rare. In none of them is water mentioned. Since salvation is offered only for faith/believing so many, many time, water baptism cannot be essential as an act of man to secure salvation. Human works are specifically excluded (Eph 2).

Spirit baptism can be understood to be salvific, but it is not something a man chooses; it is always done to the believer (1 Cor 12:13), done by God.

Dear audience:

If any of you trust your water baptism for salvation, you need to repent of trusting in human work and trust the Lord Jesus for your eternal destiny.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

 

[RickyZ]

Still with the "if you don't believe in my way you're unsaved', eh Atwood? Again, it's remarks like that that most clearly say you're off base.

 

[Atwood]

If Faith is a Gift from God, Why Would He Take It Away?

Now consider that an Adamic man, never born again, is described in lurid depraved detail in Romans 1-3. That man is not seeking God. That man is not righteous. All his righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

Then if the Lord gives that man the gift of faith/belief, so that he acts on John 3:16, believing and receiving eternal life, why would the Lord somehow send that guy to the Lake of Fire after being born again, and getting a new nature, whereby old things have passed away, and all is new (2 Cor 5)?

"in nothing affrighted by the adversaries: which is for them an evident token of perdition, but of your salvation, and that from God; because to you it has been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:" < Philip 1

"For while we were yet weak, in due season
Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die.
But God commends His own love toward us, in that,
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then,
being now justified by his blood,
we shall be saved from the wrath of God through him.
For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life"

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

 

[Atwood]

Do Not Reject Eternal Security by Worshipping Man's Will

Some postulate the sovereignty of Man's will over God's plan of salvation, which includes salvation from willing evil (lust/coveting). They have no scripture to justify making man's will an omnipotent idol. Should we call them Man-Will-ists?

Philip 2 indicates that may be more to God's salvation than you think, as it says of the Christian believer:

"it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure."

And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus. philp 4

 

[Kerry]

Re: Do Not Reject Eternal Security by Worshipping Man's Will

Some postulate the sovereignty of Man's will over God's plan of salvation, which includes salvation from willing evil (lust/coveting). They have no scripture to justify making man's will an omnipotent idol. Should we call them Man-Will-ists?

Philip 2 indicates that may be more to God's salvation than you think, as it says of the Christian believer:



"it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure."

But what If I get angry at God and reject His working through me and fellow brothers come and try to talk to me and I reject them as well. Will God respect my will or override it?

 

[Atwood]

Will God Supply You with Eternal Security? Do You Need It?

And my God shall supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus. - Philip 4

 

[Atwood]

Is Man's Will Your Idol?

"If ye died with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances, Handle not, nor taste, nor touch (all which things are to perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but are not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh." < Colossians

Is anyone interested in being clay in the Potter's hands?

Those are strong hands, from which no one (not even yourself) can snatch you away.

John 10


I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep. He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them: he fleeth because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me, even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. . . .


But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.