It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

Cassian · Jun 29, 2014

Atwood,

but you fail to understand that a believer can become an unbeliever. The promise holds for believers. God will never forsake a believer, but IF we(a believer) denies Him, He will deny him before His Father.

It is very simple and straightforward, but you need to change the meaning so it fits a predestination foundation.

God may doing the saving, but He cannot save without our cooperation. If we did not need to cooperate, God would grant eternal life to all human beings since that is what He desires. Again, your statement can only be true in a predestination theory where God is the ONLY actice agent, and man is saved by decree, not a loving, free synergistic, relationship between two parties.

NOt a single one has been given in all of these posts.

YOu give God's promises and assume a predestination foundation where God saved only some by decree, moves certain men to believe, and then compels man not just believe, but holds man captive. None of this is found in scripture.

You have yet to give any kind of promise man can make regarding his commitment to Christ. YOu actually have not even started as yet to produce any evidence of OSAS.

NOt only not cited any, but have effectively dismissed most of scripture trying to force a validity that is not there. Scripture is so alien to the theory that you need to redefine, dismiss, change the meaning of all the rest of scripture, thus making it null and void, including the texts you keep citing.

To use your logic, eternal security is not ever mentioned in scripture.

Cassian · Jun 29, 2014

Atwood said:

Your examples even speak against your view. Your use of Peter, even if we assume that God forced Jesus's prayer upon Peter, it would mean that Peter was NOT saved in the first place. Or if he was saved, the prayer is meaningless.
Either way, it makes your theory look rediculous.
I John to which you are referring does not guanantee that any believer will not sin. It is another proof text that, first, does not say what you want it to say, then, if you read clearly, we do sin, and we must confess our sins. The problem with some believers is that they continue to sin, become lazy, don't seek forgiveness, or as some do rationalize sin so that it becomes acceptable (to them).
Just trusting Him will not get one saved either. That is just another subsitute for the word, faith, and faith only, does not exist in scripture as a means to attaining eternal life.

Atwood · Jun 29, 2014

Cassian said:

Nonsense. How can it be meaningless that the Lord sustains the faith of a Christian? He is the author & perfecter of the believer's faith. He who began a good work in the believer will complete it.

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that through patience and through comfort of the scriptures we might have hope. Now the God of patience and of comfort grant you to be of the same mind [My what a violation of free will!] one with another according to Christ Jesus: that with one accord ye may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

One of those things written is the story of how Christ maintained Peter's faith (which he already had, or it could not be said "that your faith [which you already have] fail not."

Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: but I made supplication for thee, that thy faith fail not; and do thou, when once thou hast turned again, establish thy brethren.

Nothing makes the truth ridiculous.

Nothing about what I am wanting 1 John to say; it explains apostasy:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

The departure proves that they were never part of the Body of Christ.

What a whopper, Cassian. Time & time again the only human requirement for salvation is faith/belief/trust in Christ:

The evidence is conclusive & overwhelming, & too much for me to post it all below:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.
Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.

John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believes him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes hath eternal life.

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

1 John 5:10-12
He that believes on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believes not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.
Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto Jehovah;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.

Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believes on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he that believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith saith thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down

or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Alligator · Jun 29, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

I only get arrogant when I see something stupid posted.

Cassian · Jun 29, 2014

Atwood,

He does NOT sustain a believer's faith without the commitment of the believer. God does not act unilaterally upon man. Which is why the attaining of eternal life is a working out of our faith/salvation with God. It takes two to attain eternal life.

Your use of Heb 12:2, looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross.... obviously you need it to say what you need here as well.
Unfortunate translations or false suppositions have led many astray. The Greek is "archegos" (leader) and "teleiotes" (example) of our faith; instead of what you want it to say ("God controlling our faith"), instead it is presenting Jesus as our inspiration and example. this is why we should look to the Faith of Christ as our example and model because He did it perfectly.

the statement presupposes free will. What it does not presuppose is predestination.

It would be impossible for God to maintain Peter's faith apart from Peter's desire. It surely could fail if Peter desired otherwise. The statement would need to say that his faith will not fail, it does not say that. It was not predestined, but chosen by Peter.

there is no language here, or predestination presupposition, but that it is all up to Peter. Jesus specifically is charging Peter to DO. Not that God will do for him, as in predestination.

which should be obvious to you by now that predestination, monergism of man's faith, or predestination of eteral life are not possible in the light of scripture. YOur presuppositions make it ridiculous because you need to work so hard to change, modify, redefine the words of scripture.

again you need to redefin "apostacy" in order to make it mean what you desire.

It only gets one in the door and keeps one IN Christ. The NT is full of all the requirments that a believer must meet in order to attain eternal life.

I understand your foundation/predestination does not allow even for faith because in the reformed view God gives faith ONLY to those that were predestined to believe, and obviously, if one believes, it was because he was predestined and must of necessity remain, for how could man fault a decree of God. Nothing in scripture even closely approximates the nonsense that one must assume with predestination and make so many changes to the rest of scripture to make it hopefully fit.

then you go a post all the verses that have the word, faith or believes as if faith only, belief only is what saves. It only justifies one, puts one into a correct relationship so the rest can actually take place. Repentance, baptism, and then most important of all, is to do His will. If one does not DO His will, one has no faith, one can no longer be justified by a faith one no longer has. You have dismissed all of scripture trying to make your point for faith only and it does not exist. In none of those verses does it say one is saved by faith only, or believeth ONLY. It is stated ONLY in the negative, which invalidates all of your texts you cited.

You cannot find a single verse that says man is saved (inherits eteranal life) by faith ONLY.

newbirth · Jun 29, 2014

Atwood said:

You are the king of deception I have posted nothing about earning, why bring that up. You keep saying the sheep...and I will show you again .... But ye believe not,(why) because ye are not of My sheep, as I said unto you.
(what did you say to me?) My sheep hear my voice, and I know Them(who them...My sheep), and They(who they...my sheep) follow me:And I give unto Them(who them..My sheep) eternal life; and they(who they...my sheep) shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them(who them...my sheep) out of my hand.

Do these scripture deny the saviour?...all it says is that you hear him and follow him and he will give you eternal life.
John 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Atwood · Jun 29, 2014

. . . also of the sheep it is said that the Lord Jesus gives them eternal life, and they shall never perish -- nothing about condition, cause, or result between those characteristics, & Christ's gift. Eternal life is not earned, it is the gift of God. "The wages of sin is death." You earn that one. "but the free gift of God is eternal life, in Jesus Christ our Lord." That one is not earned, it is not of works, but a free gift.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatchthem out of the Father’s hand.

We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections are given between hearing voice and following. There are no such conditions at all.

newbirth said:

You are the king of deception I have posted nothing about earning, why bring that up.

Click to expand...

NewB, didn't you try to insert causation or condition between hearing & following and give them eternal life, as if you earned eternal life by hearing & following? (works)

Thus not only is it deceptive or delusional to claim a causal or conditional relationship where none exists in the text, but also the suggested condition would be salvation by works.

NewB, the words "as I said unto you" are doubtful. They are not in the ASV; though they really don't make any difference as to eternal security. You insert "(what did you say to me?)" -- but that is not in the text. If it were, I think it would mean that he told them before that they were not of His sheep. But I see no doctrinal importance.

I don't know what you are belaboring. It is obvious that some are sheep & some are not. The sheep are believers and the non-sheep are non-believers.

No that is not what it says. The word "you" does not appear in the sheep verse. The statement is not an offer of anything to the "you" who are unbelievers and not of His sheep. What you just said is not a quote of the passage. Here are the words:

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,"

What the text does not say is that eternal life is dependent on hearing and following (salvation by works). You are not permitted to change God's Word & insert what is not there.

The sheep are characterized by hearing & obeying; Yes, that is their characteristics. But also of the sheep it is said that the Lord Jesus gives them eternal life, and they shall never perish -- nothing about condition, cause, or result between those characteristics & Christ's gift. Eternal life is not earned, it is the gift of God. "The wages of sin is death." You earn that one. "but the free gift of God is eternal life, in Jesus Christ our Lord." That one is not earned, it is not of works, but a free gift.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections are given between hearing voice and following. There are no such conditions at all.

RickyZ · Jun 29, 2014

It's amazing how big and colored words can make a statement true. I'll have to go ask KJV1611 why his beloved KJV1611 isn't in big and colorful words if it's so true.

Atwood · Jun 29, 2014

Cassian said:

Sola Cassiana again. You just say things. No Bible proof.

"looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith,"

ἀφορῶντες εἰς τὸν τῆς πίστεως ἀρχηγὸν καὶ τελειωτὴν Ἰησοῦν,

BDAG standard Greek Lexicon does not agree with you:

ἀρχηγός, οῦ, ὁ
1. one who has a preeminent position, leader, ruler, prince
2. one who begins someth. that is first in a series, thereby providing impetus for further developments
3. one who begins or originates, hence the recipient of special esteem in the Gr-Rom. world, originator, founder ; ἀ. τῆς σωτηρίας Hb 2:10; τῆς πίστεως ἀ. [Hebrews 12:2.]

But the main point here is that He is the finisher or perfector of the faith:

"τελειωτής, οῦ, ὁ (τελειόω; Dionys. Hal., Dinarchus 1; otherwise only in Christ. wr. Methodius MPG XVIII, 360b; on morphology Schwyzer I 500) one who brings someth. to a successful conclusion, perfecter (opp. ἀρχηγός, q.v. 3; Jesus is both) τῆς πίστεως Hb 12:2(AWikgren, NTS 6, ’60, 159–67; NCroy, JBL 114, ’95, 117–19=‘one not to be transcended by subsequent improvements’).—DELG s.v. τέλος."

No such meaning as "example" is given by the standard NT Greek Lexicon (BDAG).

I checked also the huge Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon, which includes more than NT & Early Church usage. Here is L & S:

"τελει-ωτής, οῦ, ὁ, accomplisher, finisher, τῆς πίστεως Ep.Hebr.12.2."

So once again, I reject the Sola Cassiana pontifications, I think this one calls for a retraction.

You do go on & on, just saying things.

No, we will go with the Word of God in 1 John 2.

Garbage. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. For God so loved the world that He gave His monogene Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Don't go making up things. My foundation is the Lord Jesus and God's Word. "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; not any theory on predestination. And I have not argued with the words you try to stick in my mouth.

The system here wouldn't let me post all the verses. There were too many.

You cannot find a single verse that says man is saved (inherits eteranal life) by faith ONLY.[/QUOTE]

There are many scriptures that require only faith and nothing else for salvation, which includes eternal life.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Atwood · Jun 29, 2014

How to Know the Truth on Eternal Security / Salvation

To know the truth about salvation, eternal life and associated concepts, the wrong methodology is to go into a denominational gear, by a die-hard advocate for your denominational doctrines not matter what. An example of this would be someone who has a real party spirit over "Catholicism," or so-called "Eastern orthodoxy," or for Lutheranism or Calvinism.

To know the truth on a subject, read the Bible from cover to cover and mark all the relevant passages. Analyze them and synthesize them: How do they all fit together?

Years ago I marked all the passages on salvation in my ASV 1901 translation. I don't know of a better relatively neutral translation that that one, as the work of late 19th century scholarship, scholars of Cambridge and Oxford supplemented by an American committee. IMHO back in those days scholars in Great Britain were trained in classics, Greek and Latin from childhood. I think it rare today to find scholars who know Greek so well. The ASV is not a denominational version. It tends towards wooden literalism, leaving you to make your own interpretation much of the time. It still has the old Elizabethan pronouns, so you know when you is singular vs plural. You in the ASV & the KJV is always plural (you all). Thou, thee, and thy are singular.

At any rate, I don't prove things by quoting Calvin. And I don't spout a denominational line dogmatically as if it should be believed just because I say it.

Eternal Security is a blessed Bible truth established by the inductive method, as I indicated. In the Calvinist TULIP, the P = perseverance of the saints. But some believe the P without the rest of it. I don't see how anyone could read Romans 1-3 and not believe the T = total depravity of man. But that doesn't mean that everyone who is convinced that man is totally sinful, as believes that as a result man cannot believe, cannot trust Christ as Savior.

So the argument that Eternal Security is false because Calvinism is false, is a waste of time. I for one, do not endorse Calvin as inerrant. Neither do I argue that Eternal Security is so because Calvin said so. I argue that God's Word teaches this, and to disbelieve it reduces Christ to a "chance-giver" instead of a Savior.

Also to deny ES means to deny "Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins," as well as much other scripture.

Galatians2-20 · Jun 29, 2014

Atwood said:

Now who's the one making false accusations? I have not once denied Eternal Security.

Also, I've made nothing up. The problem here is that you don't seem to realize that you keep contradicting yourself in your posts. In fact, everything that you've written in the above post proves everything that I've been saying all along: faith is the prerequisite of salvation therefore it is also the prequisite (condition) of Eternal Security thus there is no such thing as Unconditional Eternal Security.

newbirth · Jun 29, 2014

Atwood said:

. . . also of the sheep it is said that the Lord Jesus gives them eternal life, and they shall never perish -- nothing about condition, cause, or result between those characteristics, & Christ's gift. Eternal life is not earned, it is the gift of God. "The wages of sin is death." You earn that one. "but the free gift of God is eternal life, in Jesus Christ our Lord." That one is not earned, it is not of works, but a free gift.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatchthem out of the Father’s hand.

We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections are given between hearing voice and following. There are no such conditions at all.

I do not insert anything you see it in scripture

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,"

No my friend I am not but since you are making this point I would have you know...we are saved by grace through faith, and faith without works is dead...so you proved it yourself.

All are sheep, some are his some are not

I was talking to you

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,"

Here you are saying the sheep don't have to hear and follow to get eternal life

Now you are saying yes the sheep hear and follow and Jesus give them eternal life

Here you are all confused an off on a tangent

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Click to expand...

You did a very nice job of separating the word to suit your doctrine, that is why you pasted 4&5 all over CC leaving out 1,2&3 on purpose.

Your doctrine is of more importance to you than truth...

Galatians2-20 · Jun 29, 2014

Galatians2-20 said:

When one realizes the fact that faith is not a work of man but instead it is the work of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men, the doctrine of CONDITIONAL Eternal Security makes perfect sense both biblically and rationally. If faith is not the prerequisite then the entire thing falls apart and you will have people engaging in all sorts of serious errors such as licentiousness (hyper grace / antinomianism) and universalism.

I wonder how many proponents of Unconditional Eternal Security realize that their doctrine is being used to accept actively gay clergy and gay marriages?

Atwood · Jun 29, 2014

Objections to ES Seem Always Based on Off Topic Ideas

While the correct way to determine the truth of Eternal Security is to check all the passages on the subject to see what scripture says that the saved persevere, one is ever reading canards based on other considerations, like free will or the idea that somehoe if salvation depends of belief, men must be able to stop being saved on the theory that they can stop believing. And this is just pontificated without scripture to negate either eternal security nor to prove that believers can stop believing. You find neither lose faith nor lose salvation in the Bible, the latter being an oxymoron.

You have to allow for the possibility that the Lord Jesus is the author & perfecter of the believer's faith, & that to the believer it is given to believe.

Now what do you think of Eph 3 where Paul intercedes for the Ephesian believers. Paul is off in Rome apparently, under house arrest, far from Ephesus; but Paul prays for the Ephesians, who would not know that Paul was praying for them. Paul is led by the Spirit to intercede for them, that they would be strengthened with power in the inner man, that Christ might dwell in their hearts' by FAITH.

And that indicates that if Paul's prayer is answered with a YES (& as a prayer inspired by the Spirit it must get a YES answer), then the Holy Spirit is going to strengthen the Ephesians with power in the Ephesians' inner man so that they will have faith which then results in Christ dwelling in their hearts (instead of at the periphery). That prayer sure looks like the faith that the Ephesians are to have is the result of the Holy Spirit, which in turn is the result of Paul's prayer for them.

Now we may all kinds of theories about human free will or the bondage of the will. However, the proof can be debated. Human supposition about how it must be is useless. Thus it is stupid to take an unproven theory about human free will and then argue from that against eternal security. Can you really prove your human will theory? And if you can, what really does that have to do with eternal security? Are you really so sure that God cannot be sovereign over all and man make real choices at the same time?

But I say, set aside the tangential speculations, & focus on what the Word of God directly states.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Atwood · Jun 29, 2014

Galatians2-20 said:

Eternal security is a fact: He Who began a good work in you will complete it.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Salvation is by grace through faith apart from works: Fact from Eph 2.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

God's truths make no contribution to sodomy.

Atwood · Jun 29, 2014

Amen. Yes, that is their characteristics. But also of the sheep it is said that the Lord Jesus gives them eternal life, and they shall never perish -- nothing about condition, cause, or result between those characteristics, & Christ's gift. Eternal life is not earned, it is the gift of God. "The wages of sin is death." You earn that one. "but the free gift of God is eternal life, in Jesus Christ our Lord." That one is not earned, it is not of works, but a free gift.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatchthem out of the Father’s hand.

We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections are given between hearing voice and following. There are no such conditions at all.

Dear NewB,
will this be the day when you stop denying the saving ability of Christ, when you stop thinking of Him as a chance-giver, and start trusting Him to be your complete Savior?

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

newbirth said:

The passage calls unbelievers not his sheep and has no other kind of sheep in it. You invent something foreign to the passage.

BTW, you are making it hard to respond by the way you are embedding your responses into the preceding posts.

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,"'

The text does not call the unbelievers sheep.

What the text does not say is that eternal life is dependent on hearing and following (salvation by works). You are not permitted to change God's Word & insert what is not there.

Here you are saying the sheep don't have to hear and follow to get eternal life

Click to expand...

I am not saying anything except that the text says nothing about the sheep having to do something. They are sheep. The have characteristics. They hear & follow. There is nothing about "having to" in the passage. You make something up to your own destruction; you oppose yourself, and try to present a reason why you should take Christ as a chance-giver instead of a Savior.

The sheep are characterized by hearing & obeying; Yes, that is their characteristics. But also of the sheep it is said that the Lord Jesus gives them eternal life, and they shall never perish

-- nothing about condition, cause, or result between those characteristics & Christ's gift. Eternal life is not earned, it is the gift of God. "The wages of sin is death." You earn that one. "but the free gift of God is eternal life, in Jesus Christ our Lord." That one is not earned, it is not of works, but a free gift.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections are given between hearing voice and following. There are no such conditions at all.

You did a very nice job of separating the word to suit your doctrine, that is why you pasted 4&5 all over CC leaving out 1,2&3 on purpose.

Nothing is separated, nothing is left out except your additions to the text, which are not there. I quote the proof text for eternal life. However, you can add against the claims that they might stop following, that it says they follow -- nothing about stopping. But your words are a diversion.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand

Atwood · Jun 29, 2014

Galatians2-20 said:

Yes, you made up that I was in the ranks of the universalists.

Eternal security is a fact.
"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."
Salvation is by grace through faith.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast."
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

All the above is God's word & true; nothing is self-contradictory in it.

Cassian · Jun 29, 2014

Atwood,

this whole thread in opposition to OSAS is the proof. The very text to which I responded is proof.

Your assumption that God only works through decrees therefore God acts unilaterally upon man respective of one's relationship with Him, which is false and untenable in scripture.

His faith in redeeming us, thus His faith becomes the model and example for us. YOur Greek lexicon verified exactly what I stated. And why would it not, when that meaning was made in the beginning. The Church was all Greek for 900 years. I think they would have known Greek.

If you so with what it actually says, then they were believers otherwise one cannot apostasize.

YOu post the very text that condemns your view again. Even it being a promise of God, it depends on man's believing. A person who leaves, is no longer a believer, apostasizes, is not a believer any longer so the promise obviously does not apply.

why then do you need to change everything so that it presupposes predestination, a monergistic arrangement, a unilateral action by God and a finite, decreed application for a one-time mental affirmation of faith? Why not just accept what scripture says without all the redefining and changing what a text is saying and means.

NOt a single one. The phrase does not exist EXCEPT IN THE NEGATIVE. You are so desparate that you even need to redefine a negative statement which disproves your theory.

Again, none of those verses say faith only. They also never say faith in the past tense. It is always believes, in the present tense, active and continuing. YOu have dismissed all the rest of scripture which defines just what faith means for the believer. James tells us as well, but you have already dismissed most of James just so you don't need to deal with the negative for faith only.

Several of those verses deals with justification as well, which is NOT salvation either. Here is where your other man made theory comes into play, Anselm's Satisfaction theory of atonement.

YOu can keep kicking against the pricks but you will find no support of either predestination, OSAS, perseverance of the saints, ES, OOS, any other tenet of Calvinism in scripture as described and understood in the Calvinist system.

Cassian · Jun 29, 2014

Re: Objections to ES Seem Always Based on Off Topic Ideas

Atwood said:

While the correct way to determine the truth of Eternal Security is to check all the passages on the subject to see what scripture says that the saved persevere, one is ever reading canards based on other considerations, like free will or the idea that somehoe if salvation depends of belief, men must be able to stop being saved on the theory that they can stop believing. And this is just pontificated without scripture to negate either eternal security nor to prove that believers can stop believing. You find neither lose faith nor lose salvation in the Bible, the latter being an oxymoron.

You have to allow for the possibility that the Lord Jesus is the author & perfecter of the believer's faith, & that to the believer it is given to believe.

Now what do you think of Eph 3 where Paul intercedes for the Ephesian believers. Paul is off in Rome apparently, under house arrest, far from Ephesus; but Paul prays for the Ephesians, who would not know that Paul was praying for them. Paul is led by the Spirit to intercede for them, that they would be strengthened with power in the inner man, that Christ might dwell in their hearts' by FAITH.

And that indicates that if Paul's prayer is answered with a YES (& as a prayer inspired by the Spirit it must get a YES answer), then the Holy Spirit is going to strengthen the Ephesians with power in the Ephesians' inner man so that they will have faith which then results in Christ dwelling in their hearts (instead of at the periphery). That prayer sure looks like the faith that the Ephesians are to have is the result of the Holy Spirit, which in turn is the result of Paul's prayer for them.

Now we may all kinds of theories about human free will or the bondage of the will. However, the proof can be debated. Human supposition about how it must be is useless. Thus it is stupid to take an unproven theory about human free will and then argue from that against eternal security. Can you really prove your human will theory? And if you can, what really does that have to do with eternal security? Are you really so sure that God cannot be sovereign over all and man make real choices at the same time?

But I say, set aside the tangential speculations, & focus on what the Word of God directly states.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

You are pontificating Atwood. Pontificating from false premises as well, rather than what scripture means.

Atwood · Jun 29, 2014

Cassian said:

Cassian, you continue to pontificate with no Bible proof and apparently you think you win a debate by repeating the terms Calvin or Calvinism. It proves nothing, though it does make one wonder if you even read what I post.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us."

Apostasy proves that the apostate was not in the past "of us," that is not in the Body of Christ. The only apostates are persons who were never saved.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Jesus Christ is the author & perfecter of our faith.
[not "example." -- BDAB and L&S Lexicons]

It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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