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S
God did not shed His blood for Noah or his family or Lot or his wife or daughters at that time .....He shed his blood for the church that is us .....so why would He let us go through the tribulation?..tribulation is the wrath of God onto the earth.check out rev 3:10 He said that He would keep us away from that.
S
are you trying to say that you are full of hypocrisy and ignorance???lol
God has said that He has clothed us with righteous garments and that we are spotless.
isaiah 61:10
in zechariah chapter 3, when satan accuses Joshua the high preist, the Lors rebukes satan and clothed him with rich robe and clean turban
psalm 30:11 - it says that He put off our sackcloth and clothed us with gladness
God repeatedly told us to stay up and watch out for Him cos He will come at any time and we dont know when. Hes telling us not to be ignorant and those who are will be left behind but those who have the fear of God in their hearts and are awake in spirit will be lifted up.
During the tribulation, God has given the power to satan to rule the earth and kill thhose who dont worship the beast. rev 13:15. 2 thess 2:7 says that the mystery of lawlessness is already at work but theres One who restrains it and will do so until Hes taken out of the way which means that the grace of God doesnt exist anymore during the antichrist rule and so without His help HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE POSSIBLY THINK YOU CAN WITHSTAND THE TRIBULATION??!!!!
and exactly why would He leave His bride, the one He loves unconditionally to go through the Great tribulation??
rev 7 and 14 tells us clearly that only 144000 will withstand the Great tribulation since God has sealed His name on their foreheads and that they are virgins...so you mean to tell me that only 144000 will be taken up to heaven??? and that only virgins will be taken up...so people who believe in post trib DO NOT GET MARRIED...STAY SINGLE TILL YOU DIE....llol!!! and for those who are already married...guess what?? YOU ARE GOING TO HELL....loll!!
God has said that He has clothed us with righteous garments and that we are spotless.
isaiah 61:10
in zechariah chapter 3, when satan accuses Joshua the high preist, the Lors rebukes satan and clothed him with rich robe and clean turban
psalm 30:11 - it says that He put off our sackcloth and clothed us with gladness
God repeatedly told us to stay up and watch out for Him cos He will come at any time and we dont know when. Hes telling us not to be ignorant and those who are will be left behind but those who have the fear of God in their hearts and are awake in spirit will be lifted up.
During the tribulation, God has given the power to satan to rule the earth and kill thhose who dont worship the beast. rev 13:15. 2 thess 2:7 says that the mystery of lawlessness is already at work but theres One who restrains it and will do so until Hes taken out of the way which means that the grace of God doesnt exist anymore during the antichrist rule and so without His help HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE POSSIBLY THINK YOU CAN WITHSTAND THE TRIBULATION??!!!!
and exactly why would He leave His bride, the one He loves unconditionally to go through the Great tribulation??
rev 7 and 14 tells us clearly that only 144000 will withstand the Great tribulation since God has sealed His name on their foreheads and that they are virgins...so you mean to tell me that only 144000 will be taken up to heaven??? and that only virgins will be taken up...so people who believe in post trib DO NOT GET MARRIED...STAY SINGLE TILL YOU DIE....llol!!! and for those who are already married...guess what?? YOU ARE GOING TO HELL....loll!!
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I meant it doesnt necessarily mean it's the raptured church. That view is commonly used to prove the rapture, that the church must be in heaven since the 24 elders are in heaven and represents the church. Butl no one really knows the identity of the 24 elders, whether it is literally 24 chosen people , or only symbolic, of the whole church. The 24 elders don't have to be the raptured church, they could be people who have long died such as old testament levitical priests or maybe the 12 apostles, who knows. It's sort of counter productive to use that idea to show a worldwide church rapture as it is only 24 elders anyway, - not a mass multitude of people. And these 24 elders are not in their soul state they appear to be glorified, and probably the first fruits to God. As I or someone else said before, we have to read a lot into the scripture to get a pre-trib rapture view. In this case, we have to assume that 24 elders means the whole church and that being the whole raptured church. But it's still only guess work all the same.
B
We must get away from our emotions regarding this subject. I know this previous statement may peirce someone reading this, but it is the truth. It seems as if there are too many clear cut scriptures that support a post trubulation Rapture... I'd rather call it the first resurrection because that is what the bible calls it (Rev 19 and Rev 20:1-5). If you all would not mind.. I would like you to find all clear scriptures you can that support a pre trib rapture. And then I, and Im sure some others will post a reply. After that we will just put them in the balance and let it be weighed.
Also, I read in one post that a post tribulation rapture does not fit into GOD's pattern..... I wonder how is that so... The children of Israel suffered coming out of egypt (Exodus-Deuteronomy). David suffered even before the absalom issue. Micaiah suffered, was smote and thown in prison. Daniel suffered, Nehmiah suffered, Paul suffered, The deciples suffered and our GOD WAS CRUCIFIED AND PUT TO DEATH to rectify what was wrong due to adams decision. (Psalms 34:19) Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
It does not say you will not go through the affllictions nor did it say when you will be delivered... but THE WORD OF GOD does assure deliverance. It would seem to me that afflictions and even a tribulation where even some of the righteous are tried, is stated by the word of GOD.
Also, I read in one post that a post tribulation rapture does not fit into GOD's pattern..... I wonder how is that so... The children of Israel suffered coming out of egypt (Exodus-Deuteronomy). David suffered even before the absalom issue. Micaiah suffered, was smote and thown in prison. Daniel suffered, Nehmiah suffered, Paul suffered, The deciples suffered and our GOD WAS CRUCIFIED AND PUT TO DEATH to rectify what was wrong due to adams decision. (Psalms 34:19) Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
It does not say you will not go through the affllictions nor did it say when you will be delivered... but THE WORD OF GOD does assure deliverance. It would seem to me that afflictions and even a tribulation where even some of the righteous are tried, is stated by the word of GOD.
G
The rapture is a false teaching from people who want to destroy true christianity and take over the world that some true christians grabed, just because most belive it doesn't make it true.
How many want to be taken away (raptured) in a flood. notice the words "taken away" aplies to the wicked
Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
How many want to be taken away (raptured) in a flood. notice the words "taken away" aplies to the wicked
Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
well I am sure I have pointed this out before maybe you missed it I don't know but in rev, it clearly teaches that the Church /The Bride is ready and has already been adorned in her white robe, before the first resurrection. so could you explain this please. and try to show me from scripture not what a pastor or christian author has said
Re 19:4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.Re 19:5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.Re 19:6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.Re 19:7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.Re 19:8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.Re 19:9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
and the scriptures uses the word and this happen and then this happened so it in is a timely order of each event following the other then in these verses it states that the first resurrection happens after the Bride is there and ready
Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Re 19:4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.Re 19:5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.Re 19:6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.Re 19:7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.Re 19:8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.Re 19:9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
and the scriptures uses the word and this happen and then this happened so it in is a timely order of each event following the other then in these verses it states that the first resurrection happens after the Bride is there and ready
Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
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S
Let's be a little realistc here about the things we go through in this life and what believers have gone through since the beginning that have nothing to do with the great tribulation that is coming upon the earth. This tribulation that is coming has never been upon the earth nor experienced by anyone and will not be afterwards / Mt 24:21. There is no benefit for the church or bride of Christ in this great tribulation but is meant for the salvation of Israel and the execution of the wrath of the Lamb upon the children of disobedience / Eph 5:6, Col 3:6, Rev 6:16,17. There are six seals opened by the Lamb in Rev 6 and before the earth could be hurt by the seventh seal is opened, 12,000 from each tribe of Israel are sealed in their foreheads / Rev 7:4 and given white robes that had been made white by the blood of the Lamb / Rev 7:13,14. They will be taken out of the great tribulation and be feed by the Lamb before the throne of God and not experience the wrath of the Lamb of the seventh seal / Rev 7:14-17. There is no mention of any church being spared of this seventh seal or being involved in the first six seals.
In Rev 2:18-24 you have Jesus Christ dealing with the church of Thyatira. In verse 22 something very interested is mentioned that involves those that were at that church who were seduced by Jezebel to commit fornication, eat things sacrificed to idols and commit adultery / Rev 2:20,21. God gave Jezebel space to repent and if she did not repent and those that followed her, they would be cast into great tribulation, which is the same as mentioned in Mt 24:21. Here is what is curious. If they did not repent they would be cast into great tribulation by the Lord , but those, from that church, that did repent or had no need to repent, would not be cast into great tribulation. It looks like the crowd that followed Jezebel and her teachings and did not repent would be going into (the) great tribulation because they were not saved though involved in that church. But those that made up that church who did not follow her teachings, were saved and would not be cast into great tribulation. If they are not cast in then they must be taken up before the great tribulation takes place.
Read for yourself; Rev 2:18-24 'And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.'
In Rev 2:18-24 you have Jesus Christ dealing with the church of Thyatira. In verse 22 something very interested is mentioned that involves those that were at that church who were seduced by Jezebel to commit fornication, eat things sacrificed to idols and commit adultery / Rev 2:20,21. God gave Jezebel space to repent and if she did not repent and those that followed her, they would be cast into great tribulation, which is the same as mentioned in Mt 24:21. Here is what is curious. If they did not repent they would be cast into great tribulation by the Lord , but those, from that church, that did repent or had no need to repent, would not be cast into great tribulation. It looks like the crowd that followed Jezebel and her teachings and did not repent would be going into (the) great tribulation because they were not saved though involved in that church. But those that made up that church who did not follow her teachings, were saved and would not be cast into great tribulation. If they are not cast in then they must be taken up before the great tribulation takes place.
Read for yourself; Rev 2:18-24 'And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.'
S
Don't let those that do not know the grace of God wear you done and get you confused and frustrated. Be strong in grace and keep the conviction that God has given you in the truth. What is in their heart will be revealed for what it is because God will show it to them. God has redeemed you through the eternal blood of Christ and you are not appointed unto wrath / 1Thes 5:9. Anyone that tries to convince you otherwise does not know the grace and salvation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
sorry dude, but i think the correct term :
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828)
ARTFL > Webster's Dictionary > Searching for rapture:
Try your search on Wordnik!
Displaying 1 result(s) from the 1828 edition:
RAP''TURE, n. [L. raptus, rapio.]
1. A seizing by violence. [Little used.]
2. Transport; ecstasy; violence of a pleasing passion; extreme joy or pleasure.
It can be violence but it also can be extreme joy, therefore comfort one another with these words, sounds to me like the intent of scripture would imply joy.
1 thes 4:13-18 clearly states that the ones taken out are the ones in Christ, so your doctrine of the evil ones that are taken out is blaspheme against the Church. calling the elect Church of God evil , shame on you!!! you should read text when text is referred to instead of taking someone elses word for it . and take note please that only the ones in Christ are taken not all the dead which is at the last resurrection.
1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain. certain sounds like the good people verses the evil that are taken out; dead in Christ and we which remain speaking about the brethren that He was speking to.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828)
ARTFL > Webster's Dictionary > Searching for rapture:
Try your search on Wordnik!
Displaying 1 result(s) from the 1828 edition:
RAP''TURE, n. [L. raptus, rapio.]
1. A seizing by violence. [Little used.]
2. Transport; ecstasy; violence of a pleasing passion; extreme joy or pleasure.
It can be violence but it also can be extreme joy, therefore comfort one another with these words, sounds to me like the intent of scripture would imply joy.
1 thes 4:13-18 clearly states that the ones taken out are the ones in Christ, so your doctrine of the evil ones that are taken out is blaspheme against the Church. calling the elect Church of God evil , shame on you!!! you should read text when text is referred to instead of taking someone elses word for it . and take note please that only the ones in Christ are taken not all the dead which is at the last resurrection.
1th 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain. certain sounds like the good people verses the evil that are taken out; dead in Christ and we which remain speaking about the brethren that He was speking to.
hello welcome to the discussion forum but look dude You either didn't read with open eyes or you just plain missed it, the scriptures you referr clearly states that the first resurrection is pertaining to the tribulation saints only. pay close attention to who is resurrected.
Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
the ones that refused to take the mark the ones that were beheaded sounds like tribulation saints to me, there are in heaven by the first resurrection and the rest of the dead the second resurrection want be until after the thousands but note please that a rapture is not a resurrection, yeah the dead are taken but aslo the living were also taken, you can't resurrect the living, thus a taken up or rapture occurs before both resurrections for the bride is in heaven before the first resurrection occurs
Re 19:6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.Re 19:7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.Re 19:8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.Re 19:9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
One thing that I don't understand is that a lot of people who believe in the pretribulation rapture believe that the Christians will be snatched up and the Holy Spirit will be taken out as well.
They then believe that there is a chance for the remaining people to be saved till Christ comes to take the second group of Christians.
Well my questian is this how can a person be saved without the Holy Spirit?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5
They then believe that there is a chance for the remaining people to be saved till Christ comes to take the second group of Christians.
Well my questian is this how can a person be saved without the Holy Spirit?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5