Trinity?

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Mar 28, 2014
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If you worship God, you worship the Holy Spirit, because the Spirit is God, as the Father and Son are God.
If you understand english you would know that is not what I asked .Trinity claims three individual god or person I see two worshipped as individuals show me the third being worshipped as an individual in scripture ...chapter and verse..not your claim or opinion
 
T

Tintin

Guest
These Trinity threads are never-ending, like the real Trinity.
Here's one Trinity that does end, she of The Matrix.

Thread? Dodge this!
trinity_the_matrix-11351.jpg
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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I understand English just fine, thank you. :)

Now that the pissing contest is out of the way, I did answer your question. You asked where does it say to worship the Holy Spirit in Scripture. I answered with: if the Holy Spirit is God, then you must worship the Spirit, no special verse in 3 Corinthians saying "Hey guys, worship the Holy Spirit". If the Holy Spirit is divine, then you must worship him, because God must be worshiped, almost by definition.

Now, if you want to have a sensible discussion about whether or not the Holy Spirit is a) a person and b) divine, then we can do that. But I'm not going to have a discussion if you're going to essential create a false and very specific standard of proof for no good reason.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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I understand English just fine, thank you. :)

Now that the pissing contest is out of the way, I did answer your question. You asked where does it say to worship the Holy Spirit in Scripture. I answered with: if the Holy Spirit is God, then you must worship the Spirit, no special verse in 3 Corinthians saying "Hey guys, worship the Holy Spirit". If the Holy Spirit is divine, then you must worship him, because God must be worshiped, almost by definition.

Now, if you want to have a sensible discussion about whether or not the Holy Spirit is a) a person and b) divine, then we can do that. But I'm not going to have a discussion if you're going to essential create a false and very specific standard of proof for no good reason.
you did not answer my question, You state IF the holy spirit is God to which I say no....The question I asked is the proof required to prove the HS is GOD
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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you did not answer my question, You state IF the holy spirit is God to which I say no....The question I asked is the proof required to prove the HS is GOD
In the post I responded to, you asked for a passage that instructs explicitly to worship the Holy Spirit. I told you that ever rime that the Bible talks about worshipping God, IF the Holy Spirit is God, then obviously the instruction is to worship the Spirit. I answered that question, just perhaps not in the way you liked.

Now, whether the Holy Spirit is God is another separate question (which was not the one you asked in the post I replied to), but we can deal with that, if you like (although, without having read the rest of this thread, I suspect it has already been addressed). I'll start with a top down approach, and then we can drill further in if you like.

First, my thesis: if the Holy Spirit is a person, not a force, and if the Holy Spirit has the characteristics of God, then we can conclude that the Holy Spirit is God.

Personhood: The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Eph 4:30, the Spirit teaches (John 14:21), the Spirit speaks (Acts 8:29), the Spirit fellowships with us (Phill 2:1), He distributes gifts as he wills (1 Cor 12:11), and has a mind (Romans 8:27). There are other places where the Spirit is talked about in this manner, and it's well worth reading these passages and the whole books in order to get a sense of the writers' pneumatology, but they should suffice to say that the Spirit has personhood, and is described as such consistently

Divinity: The Spirit is pre-existant and eternal (Hebrews 9:14), he is omnipresent and all knowing (Psalm 139:7-8) even the mind of God (John 14:26) he has God's power (Romans 15), and creates life (Psalm 104:30). He has the power of God (Luke 1), and in various places the Spirit and God are used interchangeably (Acts 5:3, Acts 13:2).

Feel free to come back at me on these. Happy to go into more detail if you like.
 
Jun 26, 2014
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I have a question for trinitarians:

What makes the Father the Father? Is it that he is the Father of Jesus Christ or is it that he is our Father?
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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I have a question for trinitarians:

What makes the Father the Father? Is it that he is the Father of Jesus Christ or is it that he is our Father?
I'd say on the basis of the way the term is used primarily in the NT, and in specific cases in the Old usually pertaining to either Israel or one of God's anointed, probably both.
 
Jun 26, 2014
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Well, it has be the latter Nick01. Luke 1:25 tells us that it was the Holy Ghost that overshadowed Mary and caused her to conceive and that would make the Holy Ghost the father of Jesus Christ.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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Well, it has be the latter Nick01. Luke 1:25 tells us that it was the Holy Ghost that overshadowed Mary and caused her to conceive and that would make the Holy Ghost the father of Jesus Christ.
Sorry, I don't see your point. Jesus existed before the incarnation, and Jesus refers to the Father as His Father, and talks about the Spirit separately. AND I think it's a pretty long bow to say that the Holy Spirit causing Mary to conceive is anything approaching a regular conception, in terms of the relationship of the child to the father.
 
Jun 26, 2014
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It that is the case, then why would the Father be called the Father in eternity and the Son be called the Son? Father and Son relationships are defined by conception. So what makes the Father a Father before time began?
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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It that is the case, then why would the Father be called the Father in eternity and the Son be called the Son? Father and Son relationships are defined by conception. So what makes the Father a Father before time began?
Without going into a long discussion on eternal generation (first because I'm going to bed, secondly because it's not entirely relevant to the thrust of your post, and thirdly because it's an idea I'm still thinking about), the Son has existed with the Father since before time began. So it becomes meaningless to try and pin down when the Father 'became' the Father, or the Son became the Son when time isn't a factor, just as meaningless as it is to talk about when, before time began, God became God, or why he began Creation at the 'time' he did rather than any other (non-existant) 'time'. He simply did, because he is self-defining and self-realising. I think it was Aquinas who postulated that possibly the most fundamental characteristic of God is that he is the only person on thing in whom existance and essence are identical. There is no disconnect between the essence of who God is, and his existance. The.The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, the Spirit is the Spirit, and have all been eternally, since before 'the beginning'. Any other speculation as to cause in those terms is, by definition, meaningless.
 
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Jun 26, 2014
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What about Wisdom?

Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Wisdom was there in eternity as well. And it is spoken of in the female gender. (See Proverbs 8)

So what part does wisdom play in the God head?
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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What about Wisdom?

Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Wisdom was there in eternity as well. And it is spoken of in the female gender. (See Proverbs 8)

So what part does wisdom play in the God head?
About the same role love, or truth, or any number of qualities play in the godhead.
 
Jun 26, 2014
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About the same role love, or truth, or any number of qualities play in the godhead.
But neither love, truth, or any other qualities are given a personality such as wisdom is in Proverbs 8. And neither of them have claimed to have been with God from everlasting. See when the son speaks of the Father being separate from himself, you guys say that it proves they are not the same. Well here, wisdom is speaking of herself separate from the Lord. So that means there is another person right? And its of the female gender.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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In the post I responded to, you asked for a passage that instructs explicitly to worship the Holy Spirit. I told you that ever rime that the Bible talks about worshipping God, IF the Holy Spirit is God, then obviously the instruction is to worship the Spirit. I answered that question, just perhaps not in the way you liked.

Now, whether the Holy Spirit is God is another separate question (which was not the one you asked in the post I replied to), but we can deal with that, if you like (although, without having read the rest of this thread, I suspect it has already been addressed). I'll start with a top down approach, and then we can drill further in if you like.

First, my thesis: if the Holy Spirit is a person, not a force, and if the Holy Spirit has the characteristics of God, then we can conclude that the Holy Spirit is God.

Personhood: The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Eph 4:30, the Spirit teaches (John 14:21), the Spirit speaks (Acts 8:29), the Spirit fellowships with us (Phill 2:1), He distributes gifts as he wills (1 Cor 12:11), and has a mind (Romans 8:27). There are other places where the Spirit is talked about in this manner, and it's well worth reading these passages and the whole books in order to get a sense of the writers' pneumatology, but they should suffice to say that the Spirit has personhood, and is described as such consistently

Divinity: The Spirit is pre-existant and eternal (Hebrews 9:14), he is omnipresent and all knowing (Psalm 139:7-8) even the mind of God (John 14:26) he has God's power (Romans 15), and creates life (Psalm 104:30). He has the power of God (Luke 1), and in various places the Spirit and God are used interchangeably (Acts 5:3, Acts 13:2).

Feel free to come back at me on these. Happy to go into more detail if you like.
See how the scripture shows Jesus being worshipped
Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Matthew 28:17
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

See how the scripture shows God being worshipped
Acts 16:14
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Acts 18:7
And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

Revelation 7:11
And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,




All I ask is one scripture showing the holy spirit being worshipped...Just as I showed with Jesus and God

It the trinity theory is true then scripture would shown us plainly,not jumping through hoops trying to convince people.
But some people love the doctrine of man more than God
 
Jun 26, 2014
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We have another problem. Acts 20:28 says that the Holy Ghost purchased the church with his own blood. But if the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ are separate beings, which one of them shed his blood for us?
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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See how the scripture shows Jesus being worshipped
lot's of passages about Jesus and the Father being worshipped
So I take it that you agree with the stuff that I posted about the Holy Spirit in my previous post, then? Otherwise, I'm not going to bother posting anything long if you're just going to ignore my posts and take the discussion elsewhere.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
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We have another problem. Acts 20:28 says that the Holy Ghost purchased the church with his own blood. But if the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ are separate beings, which one of them shed his blood for us?
It's God's own blood being referred to. There have long been arguments over what the text is supposed to say, but I've never seen anyone suggest the direct referent is the Holy Spirit, but instead the connection grammatically is between blood and God, i.e. - the church of God, which He (God) purchased with his own blood. The Holy Spirit is simply equated directly with God - He appoints people as overseers in the church of God, because he has that authority.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
Christ purchased the church with His blood but the Holy Spirit gave witness to Christ's sacrifice.