Trinity?

[newbirth]

So I take it that you agree with the stuff that I posted about the Holy Spirit in my previous post, then? Otherwise, I'm not going to bother posting anything long if you're just going to ignore my posts and take the discussion elsewhere.

You are not proving HS is God with your posts they are your opinion not proof.HS is the spirit God and Christ share...
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Bowman]

Yes now show me just like that where the holy spirit is worshipped as God..straight scripture chapter and verse...worship the holy spirit...

And the twenty four elders, and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God sitting on the throne, saying, Amen! Hallelujah! (Rev 19.4)

 

[Nick01]

You are not proving HS is God with your posts they are your opinion not proof.HS is the spirit God and Christ share...
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Then you should be able to make short work of all the Scriptural references I used as evidence. I look forward to you doing so.

The verse you posted is actually quite at home with a Trinitarian understanding of God, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

 

[Bowman]

Then you should be able to make short work of all the Scriptural references I used as evidence. I look forward to you doing so.

The verse you posted is actually quite at home with a Trinitarian understanding of God, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

The Trinity-deniers are such a hoot!

They keep bringing forth scriptures and they want us to tell them how it supposedly thwarts The Trinity....when it doesn't!

 

[Nick01]

What about Wisdom?

Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Wisdom was there in eternity as well. And it is spoken of in the female gender. (See Proverbs 8)

So what part does wisdom play in the God head?

Sorry, I missed this post amongst the other ones.

A few points:

1: The Spirit is consistently ascribed personhood through Scripture, over thousands of years, from a variety of different writers. Wisdom is only metaphorically given personhood in one very specific place, by one writer, and in the very specific genre of wisdom literature. The Spirit is given personal qualities in books like Acts, where he speaks to people as part of a historical narrative. That is a very different context to wisdom.
2. It's quite easy to see that wisdom is used metaphorically here, particularly if you read all of Proverbs 6-9. The author switches voices, between himself and personified wisdom, occasionally wisdom speaks in the third person, wisdom apparently builds houses, mixes wine, and eats meat, the author instructs us to 'get wisdom' and to 'be wise'.
3. Finally, 'Wisdom', such as it is, quite clearly says that she was made by the Lord (v.22). That is a very different situation compared to the Holy Spirit.

So to conclude, it is quite reasonable to say that the writer of Proverbs uses a personified wisdom as part of the usual practice of wisdom literature, and this metaphorical use is both poetic and designed to instruct in the ways of wisdom. This is very different when compared to the many places and ways in which the Spirit is talked about.

 

[newbirth]

Then you should be able to make short work of all the Scriptural references I used as evidence. I look forward to you doing so.

The verse you posted is actually quite at home with a Trinitarian understanding of God, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?

The point is not what one understands but what the scripture clearly states....
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Now we see all things under the ownership of God the Father and our Lord Jesus...there is no three way split.. trinity claims three co-equal persons or gods .

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



Here we see all things under Christ's feet and he subjects himself unto God so God may be all in all ...I don't see any trinity there. If anyone feels comfortable with a false doctrine that denies the true and living God and makes him what he is not that is their burden. The word of God is clear...

 

[Nick01]

Newbirth, I'm more than happy to respond to the above verses, but I would still like you to reply first of all to the verses I posted earlier. It's pointless having this discussion if we're simply talking past each other.

 

[newbirth]

And the twenty four elders, and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God sitting on the throne, saying, Amen! Hallelujah! (Rev 19.4)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Spirit of God is not another person)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[newbirth]

In the post I responded to, you asked for a passage that instructs explicitly to worship the Holy Spirit. I told you that ever rime that the Bible talks about worshipping God, IF the Holy Spirit is God, then obviously the instruction is to worship the Spirit. I answered that question, just perhaps not in the way you liked.

Now, whether the Holy Spirit is God is another separate question (which was not the one you asked in the post I replied to), but we can deal with that, if you like (although, without having read the rest of this thread, I suspect it has already been addressed). I'll start with a top down approach, and then we can drill further in if you like.

First, my thesis: if the Holy Spirit is a person, not a force, and if the Holy Spirit has the characteristics of God, then we can conclude that the Holy Spirit is God.

Personhood: The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Eph 4:30, the Spirit teaches (John 14:21), the Spirit speaks (Acts 8:29), the Spirit fellowships with us (Phill 2:1), He distributes gifts as he wills (1 Cor 12:11), and has a mind (Romans 8:27). There are other places where the Spirit is talked about in this manner, and it's well worth reading these passages and the whole books in order to get a sense of the writers' pneumatology, but they should suffice to say that the Spirit has personhood, and is described as such consistently

HS is the Spirit of God the same spirit in Christ.
Revelation 4:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.


Revelation 5:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.



Divinity: The Spirit is pre-existant and eternal (Hebrews 9:14), he is omnipresent and all knowing (Psalm 139:7-8) even the mind of God (John 14:26) he has God's power (Romans 15), and creates life (Psalm 104:30). He has the power of God (Luke 1), and in various places the Spirit and God are used interchangeably (Acts 5:3, Acts 13:2).

Feel free to come back at me on these. Happy to go into more detail if you like.

I cannot argue with scripture you quote very true and relevant scriptures but your conclusion is wrong.
Rev 4
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

 

[Nick01]

I cannot argue with scripture you quote very true and relevant scriptures but your conclusion is wrong.
Rev 4
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Can you tell me what your interpretation of those Scriptures is then, please? Just pick a couple from my most, you don't need to deal with, because I want to understand how you incorporate them into your theology.

 

[newbirth]

Can you tell me what your interpretation of those Scriptures is then, please? Just pick a couple from my most, you don't need to deal with, because I want to understand how you incorporate them into your theology.

the scripture speaks for itself ...you see God on the throne , you see spirit before God . The Lamb has the same spirit sent into all the earth

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

 

[Bowman]

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Spirit of God is not another person)

Seven spirits of what God?

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Who sits upon The Throne?

 

[newbirth]

Seven spirits of what God?




Who sits upon The Throne?

take your time and read the bible friend, if you want to see a trinity you will see a trinity...Jesus asked his disciples ,..whom do men say I am, every man had their own opinion...then he asked them...whom do you say I am.....If you want the truth you cannot go looking for trinity ...you will find her. Look for truth always you will find it.

 

[Nick01]

the scripture speaks for itself ...you see God on the throne , you see spirit before God . The Lamb has the same spirit sent into all the earth
.

I meant my post. How do you interpret the Scriptures I put in my post?

 

[Bowman]

take your time and read the bible friend, if you want to see a trinity you will see a trinity...

I first read the Holy Bible before I was either.

Now that I have studied the original languages for the past two decades, I am solid Trinitarian.

You, on the other hand, have a superficial worldview NOT supported by scripture.

 

[newbirth]

First, my thesis: if the Holy Spirit is a person, not a force, and if the Holy Spirit has the characteristics of God, then we can conclude that the Holy Spirit is God.

Personhood: The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Eph 4:30, the Spirit teaches (John 14:21), the Spirit speaks (Acts 8:29), the Spirit fellowships with us (Phill 2:1), He distributes gifts as he wills (1 Cor 12:11), and has a mind (Romans 8:27). There are other places where the Spirit is talked about in this manner, and it's well worth reading these passages and the whole books in order to get a sense of the writers' pneumatology, but they should suffice to say that the Spirit has personhood, and is described as such consistently

Holy spirit is the spirit of God having all those attributes , but thats what he is the spirit of God....
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Divinity: The Spirit is pre-existant and eternal (Hebrews 9:14), he is omnipresent and all knowing (Psalm 139:7-8) even the mind of God (John 14:26) he has God's power (Romans 15), and creates life (Psalm 104:30). He has the power of God (Luke 1), and in various places the Spirit and God are used interchangeably (Acts 5:3, Acts 13:2).

of course he does all these things he is the spirit of God
Feel free to come back at me on these. Happy to go into more detail if you like.

Everyone has their opinion I stick with scripture.....

 

[Bowman]

Everyone has their opinion I stick with scripture.....

No, you don't.

The Trinity already comprehends ALL scripture.

That is why you keep pathetically coming forward with a verse here, and a verse there (w/total disregard for the original languages), as if this was supposed to somehow thwart The Trinity.

Of course, you offer absolutely NO reason whatsoever as to what aspect of The Trinity is somehow thwarted...because you don't even know.

Unitarian joke.

 

[newbirth]

No, you don't.

The Trinity already comprehends ALL scripture.

That is why you keep pathetically coming forward with a verse here, and a verse there (w/total disregard for the original languages), as if this was supposed to somehow thwart The Trinity.

Of course, you offer absolutely NO reason whatsoever as to what aspect of The Trinity is somehow thwarted...because you don't even know.

Unitarian joke.

there is no need it's in your mind...if you put a green glasses on a horse he will see hay as fresh grass....you see trinity because it is the lifeblood of your doctrine without it you have nothing....

 

[Bowman]

there is no need it's in your mind...if you put a green glasses on a horse he will see hay as fresh grass....you see trinity because it is the lifeblood of your doctrine without it you have nothing....

The Trinity started in the OT.

Look at Ezekiel...

We have the Son proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Word (Eze 1.3)
• Also called the Glory (Eze 1.28)
• The Glory has the appearance of a Man (Eze 1.26 – 28)
• Compare how the NT refers to the Son as the Glory & the Word (John 1.14; Heb 1.3)
• Ezekiel states that the Glory by the river (Eze 1.3, 28) is the same Glory as mentioned throughout the book (Eze 3.22 – 23; 10.18 – 20; 43.3)

We have the Spirit proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Man that is portrayed in (Eze 8.1 - 3) is also mentioned in (Eze 40.3)
• The Man is a representation of the Spirit (Eze 8.2 – 3; 43.5 – 6)
• The Hand of Yahweh is also the Spirit (Eze 3.14; 8.3; 37.1)
• The Man and the Glory are often associated with Yahweh
• We have the Man bringing Ezekiel back to the east gate (Eze 44.1)
• Prior to this, the Man was w/Ezekiel by the east gate (Eze 43.1)

We have the Trinity proclaimed in Ezekiel:

• The Spirit & the Glory are mentioned together – but at the same time, distinction is made between them (Eze 1.28 – 2.2; 3.12 – 14, 23 – 24; 8.3 – 4; 10.18 – 11.1, 22 – 23; 43.1 – 5)
• The Man quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 44.6; 45.9, 18; 46.1, 16; 47.13)
• The Glory quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 3.11 – 12; 11.5; 43.18, 19, 27)
• The Man (Eze 44.1) referred the Glory, and went through the east gate into the temple (Eze 43.2 – 5), as Yahweh the Father (Eze 44.2)
• Therefore, the Glory (the Word) is the Son
• The Man (The Hand of Yahweh) is the Spirit
• Yahweh is the Father

 

[Nick01]

Everyone has their opinion I stick with scripture.....

So, let me get this straight in my own head:

You believe the Holy Spirit is a person, not a force.

You believe the Holy Spirit has all the qualities of God, including eternal existence, creative power, and omnipresence.

You believe that somehow him being the 'Spirit of God' somehow immediately overrides all those other factors, and somehow makes the Holy Spirit not God? Does Jesus being the Son of God mean that Jesus is not a part of God, and is not divine? Does being the Queen of England somehow make the Queen not part of England?

When you've actually engaged with Scripture, you haven't really posted anything that conflicts with a Trinitarian understanding of God, and have agreed with everything I have posted to you. You'll have to clarify your position, because I'm not at all sure what it is now.