Free Gifts Come With Conditions....

[SeaBass]

Dude they gathered manna every day of the week. This was free food, they did not plant and water. It fell from heaven everyday. Gathering is as much work as picking up gold nuggets on the ground. Food is money.

They were not to gather manna on the 7th day, Sabbath Day for it was a day of rest.

Evidently and contrary to Eternally-Gratfull, gathering is a WORK they were to rest from on the Sabbath.

 

[posthuman]

You made the condition I had to work by coming to you to get the free berries. Are you now changing this condition?

i never put that condition on you.

i said "if you don't retrieve them, they will rot or be eaten by bugs" -- and i specifically said they remain yours whether you act or do not act.
God has offered us adoption as sons. if we say to Him, "i want to act in a way worthy of the high place you set me in, but i cannot - please help me" then He is faithful both to forgive us to teach us to walk in His ways. if we dishonor His name with crude behavior, He may chastise us, and we should accept this and repent, lest we provoke Him to wrath and He disown us! but unless we are already His children, it is no shame to His household if we are rude, and unless we were His own, why would He chastise us?

Christ is ours; salvation is ours!
what was impossible to earn is given like rain from heaven, to all, free!!
if we don't accept our gift, how can we benefit from it?
but no matter what we give in return, God is not in our debt.

 

[SeaBass]

Go earn your salvation.

But do me a favor. Stop arguing, Your not going to convince anyone and quite frankly I am sick of trying to discuss Gods word with someone who has no desire to discuss scripture. But continue to tell lies about everyone he does nto agree with.

Enjoy life. for I fear this is all you will have.

So I see you can't admit gathering is a work they were to rest from on the 7th day which means faith only is false.

 

[Kerry]

They were not to gather manna on the 7th day, Sabbath Day for it was a day of rest.

Evidently and contrary to Eternally-Gratfull, gathering is a WORK they were to rest from on the Sabbath.

under law that was true, the got a double portion the day before and it lasted until the day after. Can you just imagine the grace and mercy of God providing for them in a rebellious state. God is awesome.

 

[Atwood]

You Have Been Brain-Washed by Lying Advertisements?

One thing I am confident of:
When I hear an advertisement saying "free" or "free gift,"
that ad is a lie.

"If you buy a new car, we will give you as a free gift, a box of Kleenex.
I feel like telling them give me the free gift; you can keep your car.

But salvation really is a free gift.
If you want you could call receiving it a condition I suppose;
and you have to have faith to receive it.

But aside from what is inherent in receiving a gift, there are no conditions to a free gift.

For the wages of sin is death,
but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Because salvation really is a free gift,
I am annoyed at advertisements misusing the word free gift; for that might make persons disbelieve God's offer, thinking that free gift doesn't mean that at all.

 

[SeaBass]

i never put that condition on you.

i said "if you don't retrieve them, they will rot or be eaten by bugs" -- and i specifically said they remain yours whether you act or do not act.
God has offered us adoption as sons. if we say to Him, "i want to act in a way worthy of the high place you set me in, but i cannot - please help me" then He is faithful both to forgive us to teach us to walk in His ways. if we dishonor His name with crude behavior, He may chastise us, and we should accept this and repent, lest we provoke Him to wrath and He disown us! but unless we are already His children, it is no shame to His household if we are rude, and unless we were His own, why would He chastise us?

Christ is ours; salvation is ours!
what was impossible to earn is given like rain from heaven, to all, free!!
if we don't accept our gift, how can we benefit from it?
but no matter what we give in return, God is not in our debt.

You posted: (in blue)

SeaBass, in my garden the blueberries are ripe.

i set a mouthful aside for you. they are yours, a gift.

if you don't come to me and eat them soon, they will rot and be eaten by bugs.

they will rot because they are yours, and no one else will eat them.

You posted "if you don't come to me" so you put the condition on me I must come to you to get and have the berries to eat.

 

[Kerry]

wow in a different thread I'm shocked?

 

[SeaBass]

under law that was true, the got a double portion the day before and it lasted until the day after. Can you just imagine the grace and mercy of God providing for them in a rebellious state. God is awesome.

But the issue is Eternally-gratfull is arguing that 'gathering' is NOT a work. And he is arguing this to desperately get around the fact that even though the manna was free, they still had to work to gather it and that work of gathering in no way means they earned the manna.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: You Have Been Brain-Washed by Lying Advertisements?

One thing I am confident of:
When I hear an advertisement saying "free" or "free gift,"
that ad is a lie.

"If you buy a new car, we will give you as a free gift, a box of Kleenex.
I feel like telling them give me the free gift; you can keep your car.

But salvation really is a free gift.
If you want you could call receiving it a condition I suppose;
and you have to have faith to receive it.

But aside from what is inherent in receiving a gift, there are no conditions to a free gift.

For the wages of sin is death,
but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Because salvation really is a free gift,
I am annoyed at advertisements misusing the word free gift; for that might make persons disbelieve God's offer, thinking that free gift doesn't mean that at all.

Some gifts may be unconditional but that in no way means all gifts are unconditional.

 

[posthuman]

You posted "if you don't come to me" so you put the condition on me I must come to you to get and have the berries to eat.

if you cannot come to me, confess it, and open the way to your door, and i will send them to you.
just as i offered them to our friend who sought them, even though the gift was first offered to you.
if you cannot come, and you are unwilling to confess inadequacy, what shall i do with the berries?
they will be eaten by bugs, or return to dust. but they will still be your berries. i'm not taking them away from you just because you don't eat them, but you are right, unless you eat them, even though they are yours, you will not be nourished by them.

you know, if we spend too much time pontificating and arguing over words, the berries themselves are going to go to waste...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But the issue is Eternally-gratfull is arguing that 'gathering' is NOT a work. And he is arguing this to desperately get around the fact that even though the manna was free, they still had to work to gather it and that work of gathering in no way means they earned the manna.

False.

They still did not earn the manna, even though they went and got it.

False. the manna was still theres, even if they did not get it. Thus it was NOT A condition. God gave it to them anyway, if they did not benefit from it, that is not Gods fault.

False.. No one could boast of getting the manna.

Which proves you trying to earn your salvation by your works of merit can NOT be justified by using manna as your example.

Next!!

 

[Nick01]

if you cannot come to me, confess it, and open the way to your door, and i will send them to you.
just as i offered them to our friend who sought them, even though the gift was first offered to you.
if you cannot come, and you are unwilling to confess inadequacy, what shall i do with the berries?
they will be eaten by bugs, or return to dust. but they will still be your berries. i'm not taking them away from you just because you don't eat them, but you are right, unless you eat them, even though they are yours, you will not be nourished by them.

you know, if we spend too much time pontificating and arguing over words, the berries themselves are going to go to waste...

I think you're both really in agreement. Existentially, the berries can be 'yours' not matter what, but if you don't 'get' them and actively receive them, they're not yours in any meaningful way, even though the person who gave them has still given them freely.

The way I look at works is this - our living in a way that pleases God, showing our faith by our deeds, is the way we have been giving of truly accepting the gift. How little regard and acceptance we have for the grace of God if our lives do not change in response!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: You Have Been Brain-Washed by Lying Advertisements?

Some gifts may be unconditional but that in no way means all gifts are unconditional.

A conditional gift is no gift at all. It is a reward, a merited payment, or a salary.

A gift is freely given, paid by the giver, with no conditions attacked, or it is not a gift period.

 

[SeaBass]

if you cannot come to me, confess it, and open the way to your door, and i will send them to you.
just as i offered them to our friend who sought them, even though the gift was first offered to you.
if you cannot come, and you are unwilling to confess inadequacy, what shall i do with the berries?
they will be eaten by bugs, or return to dust. but they will still be your berries. i'm not taking them away from you just because you don't eat them, but you are right, unless you eat them, even though they are yours, you will not be nourished by them.

you know, if we spend too much time pontificating and arguing over words, the berries themselves are going to go to waste...

Again you posted "if you don't come to me and eat them soon, they will rot and be eaten by bugs.

The implication is if I do not come to you, I do not get the berries and they rot.

 

[SeaBass]

False.

They still did not earn the manna, even though they went and got it.

False. the manna was still theres, even if they did not get it. Thus it was NOT A condition. God gave it to them anyway, if they did not benefit from it, that is not Gods fault.

False.. No one could boast of getting the manna.

Which proves you trying to earn your salvation by your works of merit can NOT be justified by using manna as your example.

Next!!

SeaBass: So your argument is down to arguing that gathering the manna was not a work?


Eternally-gratfull: Nope it was not. One could not take credit or boast or earn the manna just because they went to go get it. it was theirs to begin with.


Could they have eaten the free manna if they did not do the work of first gathering it? Absolutely not. The manna was not going to walk over to them while they sat and did nothing.

 

[SeaBass]

I think you're both really in agreement. Existentially, the berries can be 'yours' not matter what, but if you don't 'get' them and actively receive them, they're not yours in any meaningful way, even though the person who gave them has still given them freely.

The way I look at works is this - our living in a way that pleases God, showing our faith by our deeds, is the way we have been giving of truly accepting the gift. How little regard and acceptance we have for the grace of God if our lives do not change in response!

YES, he said the berries are mine but to actually receive them I must do the work of going and get them. I will never get them if I sit and do nothing even though he offered them for free. Since he ALREADY offered them to me for free, then my work of going to him cannot earn them.

Salvation had ALREADY been offered to everyone yet to receive it one must come and to Christ and get it and coming to Christ cannot earn it in anyway.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: You Have Been Brain-Washed by Lying Advertisements?

A conditional gift is no gift at all. It is a reward, a merited payment, or a salary.

A gift is freely given, paid by the giver, with no conditions attacked, or it is not a gift period.

So the manna was no gift since they had to conditionally gather it?

So Naaman's healing was no gift since he had to conditionally go and dip 7 times?

Jericho was not a gift since they had to conditionally march around it?

 

[Esanta]

You try hard to find a way around the unavoidable fact;
--the manna was a free gift by God's grace
--it required work to gather the manna to receive this free gift...no work = no manna = stay hungry.


Faith only would place demands upon the "Gift Giver" to have the manna pre-chewed, predigested and place in the stomach of the Israelites while that sat and did nothing.

So let me get this straight, a 'free' gift has conditions, but working to meet the attached conditions can not lead a person to meeting them, but a person must work to gather enough manna to hit and meet the conditions thus get this 'free' gift?

I'll tell you how much sense that makes:

1 free gift + conditional giving = 1 conditional gift.

1 conditional gift + unattainability of conditions = 1 unattainable gift

1 life of Godly work = 1 manna

1 manna + 1 unattainable gift = 1 unattainable gift + 1 useless manna

 

[dabodab]

So when Jesus Christ died on the cross, that was grace. We did not earn his death, we did not deserve his death. He did it because he wanted to.

Jesus did not WANT to die on the cross. Luke 22:42 says "Oh Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me..."


There are many different theories as to why Jesus didn't want to go to the cross; the text doesn't say why. Only that He didn't want to go.


Jesus declared his loyalty to the Father when he continues to pray "...nevertheless, not as I WILL, but as Thou will".


Jesus did the work. He went. But, He could not have gone without acting on the Father's behalf. You see that Jesus did not want to die. But His ultimate will was to do the work of Him who sent Him (John 6:38). In this regard, Jesus did the works of the Father by the Father's power. Can we expect to do works in any greater, or lesser ... if you will ... fashion? And if our works are by the Father's nudging and power, who is really preparing and doing the works?


So you see, "It is by grace you are saved, through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9)


AND


"My Father is working until now, and I am working (John 5:17)


AND


"For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13)


We don't take credit for salvation, for God wills it in us. We can't take credit for works either, for God does that, also.


Jesus could do nothing on His own authority, not even die on the cross! (John 5:30-32).

If you guys were all in a room, and I said I have a million dollars to give away to everyone in this room, that is grace. You didn't do anything to earn or deserve me doing that. But then I say, in order to get the million dollars, you have to run in a circle 5 times. If you really believe I will give you a million dollars, you will get to running! But if you don't believe I even have a million dollars, you are going to say "I am not going to make my self look like a fool for you!" Well, if you don't do what I said, you won't get the million dollars, but that doesn't mean that I didn't give you grace, because I did make it available to you but you decided not to DO anything about it.

If you were God, believe it that we all would run in circles!

 

[dabodab]

No work = no faith
No faith = no work


You're still avoiding the fact that even though God sent the manna, they still had to do the work of gathering.

Had they not done the work of gathering, would they have had manna to eat? No. So they would go hungry with no work.

I'm not getting why gathering life sustaining manna is being used to illustrate working. I get 'the sluggard' proverb, but that guy probably has cans of Spaghettio's in his cabinet. Manna was a miraculous gift that was eventually taken for granted like many other things God does for us. Questioning whether gathering manna is work is kinda like asking 'Dang walking thru this Red Sea is getting really annoying; wonder what will happen if I stop?"