Free Gifts Come With Conditions....

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
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Again you posted "if you don't come to me and eat them soon, they will rot and be eaten by bugs.

The implication is if I do not come to you, I do not get the berries and they rot.
"But now our appetite is gone;
there's nothing to look at but this manna!"

(Numbers 11:6)
 
Mar 12, 2014
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So let me get this straight, a 'free' gift has conditions, but working to meet the attached conditions can not lead a person to meeting them, but a person must work to gather enough manna to hit and meet the conditions thus get this 'free' gift?

I'll tell you how much sense that makes:

1 free gift + conditional giving = 1 conditional gift.

1 conditional gift + unattainability of conditions = 1 unattainable gift

1 life of Godly work = 1 manna

1 manna + 1 unattainable gift = 1 unattainable gift + 1 useless manna
God gave them the manna for free. Would they have had it to eat if they did not go and gather it? No

Would Naaman been healed by God's grace if he did not go and do the work of dipping 7 times in the river? No
 
Mar 12, 2014
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I'm not getting why gathering life sustaining manna is being used to illustrate working. I get 'the sluggard' proverb, but that guy probably has cans of Spaghettio's in his cabinet. Manna was a miraculous gift that was eventually taken for granted like many other things God does for us. Questioning whether gathering manna is work is kinda like asking 'Dang walking thru this Red Sea is getting really annoying; wonder what will happen if I stop?"


Some labor under the false notion that if you do any work that work means you are earning something.

The Hebrews did work in gathering the manna, but that work did not earn them the manna.


Likewise, obedience to Christ does not earn salvation as some falsely claim.
 
D

dabodab

Guest
Some labor under the false notion that if you do any work that work means you are earning something.

The Hebrews did work in gathering the manna, but that work did not earn them the manna.


Likewise, obedience to Christ does not earn salvation as some falsely claim.

The faith vs. works argument for the ages! I know it well.


My point was that much of your argument is centered around the collecting manna being physically or spiritually connected to faith. There was no faith involved! Eating manna was necessary to sustain their lives and therefore made collecting it imperative.
I don't eat my breakfast in faith. I prepare it with the intention of sustaining my appetite to live. Plus it tastes good, that helps.

Some works of the flesh:


Eating manna - we must have sustenance
Drinking - we must take water
Sleeping - observe the tweeker
Earning a living - although in some USA states this isn't necessary, sadly
Cancer treatments - I could say going to the doctor but this analogy drives my point home better


Some works of The Spirit:


Faith: Believing God and thus being 'saved'; work: I answered God's call to salvation
Faith: Feasting on God's Word; work: Taking time to open God's word
Faith: Worshipping God; work: I made this manna; it is mine.
Faith: Prayer and fasting; work: Prayer and fasting


Hmmmm, funny - I wanted to list works of faith alone, but was compelled to list the work that results from the faith.


Alnyways, all are acceptable to God. You can't have faith without works. "The Father is working and I am working". If I am not sustained by manna, I am not working. If God is not sending the manna, then I am not sustained.


What about this, hiding God's messengers because of knowledge that they were God's messengers? There was a work involved, a possible ulterior motive - the saving of Rahab's family. It would appear that faith and a desire for a means to that faith are connected here. God accepted her 'work' as faith. "By faith Rahab ..."


Eh, you guys are heavy hitting arguers, much respect to you. I enjoyed reading your thread. Hopefully you can understand my 'works are faith' illustration. <smile>
 
Mar 28, 2014
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I'm not getting why gathering life sustaining manna is being used to illustrate working. I get 'the sluggard' proverb, but that guy probably has cans of Spaghettio's in his cabinet. Manna was a miraculous gift that was eventually taken for granted like many other things God does for us. Questioning whether gathering manna is work is kinda like asking 'Dang walking thru this Red Sea is getting really annoying; wonder what will happen if I stop?"
To see if they would be obedient , simple instructions and they had problems...

Do you think Moses had to lift up his rod for God to part the sea sea?
Do you think Noah had to build an ark for God to save him, his family and the animals?

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
113
To see if they would be obedient , simple instructions and they had problems...

Do you think Moses had to lift up his rod for God to part the sea sea?
that reminds me of something:

So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill.
As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning.
When Moses’ hands grew tired, they took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held his hands up—one on one side, one on the other—so that his hands remained steady till sunset.

(Exodus 17:10-12)

Joshua was down in the valley fighting the Amelekites, doing what the world would call 'the real work' --
but an essential 'work' of faith was being done up on the top of the hill.
& there, when Moses was unable to do the 'work' of standing with his arms upraised,
he was supported by a rock, and his arms held up by his brothers.
 

DavidLOVESsnow

Senior Member
Mar 4, 2014
411
4
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I'm not going to do much for this debate. I will only state something to help you all in your discussion.

work

/wɜrk/ Show Spelled [wurk] Show IPA
noun 1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.

2. something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking: The students finished their work in class.

3. productive or operative activity.

4. employment, as in some form of industry, especially as a means of earning one's livelihood: to look for work.

5. one's place of employment: Don't phone him at work.


So work can be under definition 1) and 3) what SeaBass is claiming about the manna.

However, I'd like to define something else. Since theres 35 definitions of Free, I'll post the ones that are in the other people's arguments favor.

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]3.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]not subject (to) or restricted (by some regulation, constraint, etc); exempt: a free market ; free from pain
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]9.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]costing nothing; provided without charge: free entertainment
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]30.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]without charge or cost



So before you start arguing, you better figure out which of the definitions of Free you are talking about when it comes to a free gift :p.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
113
Peter was unable to complete 'the work'

But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out,
“Lord, save me!”​
Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him.
You of little faith,” he said,
why did you doubt?
(Matthew 14:30-31)

and when He cried out to the Lord,
the Lord, by the strength of His own arm, preserved him.
 
D

dabodab

Guest
To see if they would be obedient , simple instructions and they had problems...

Do you think Moses had to lift up his rod for God to part the sea sea?
Do you think Noah had to build an ark for God to save him, his family and the animals?

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Gathering manna as a test is easier to accept than gathering manna is a work. But then I think about the manna as being Christ, and our work of receiving him. That is a little easier to swallow. No pun intended.

Still in all three cases those 'works' would yield life sustaining rewards. That's my point.
 
D

dabodab

Guest
I'm not going to do much for this debate. I will only state something to help you all in your discussion.

work

/wɜrk/ Show Spelled [wurk] Show IPA
noun 1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.

2. something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking: The students finished their work in class.

3. productive or operative activity.

4. employment, as in some form of industry, especially as a means of earning one's livelihood: to look for work.

5. one's place of employment: Don't phone him at work.


So work can be under definition 1) and 3) what SeaBass is claiming about the manna.

However, I'd like to define something else. Since theres 35 definitions of Free, I'll post the ones that are in the other people's arguments favor.

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]3.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]not subject (to) or restricted (by some regulation, constraint, etc); exempt: a free market ; free from pain [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]9.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]costing nothing; provided without charge: free entertainment [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]30.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]without charge or cost



So before you start arguing, you better figure out which of the definitions of Free you are talking about when it comes to a free gift :p.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
I choose #30. The manna was free. It wasn't contingent on a work for the manna to fall. The manna doesn't belong in an argument about faith vs. works, because there it was. Ready to eat. Just like making breakfast. The entire world eats. We must go to our fridge and prepare the breakfast. Fact of life. Not faith-based.

So I can't get past the manna as a faith vs. works argument. Lol. The other instances of faith mentioned here are definitely faith based works, because who knew that God would part the sea or send a flood? Moses and Noah, by faith, knew it.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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I choose #30. The manna was free. It wasn't contingent on a work for the manna to fall. The manna doesn't belong in an argument about faith vs. works, because there it was. Ready to eat. Just like making breakfast. The entire world eats. We must go to our fridge and prepare the breakfast. Fact of life. Not faith-based.

So I can't get past the manna as a faith vs. works argument. Lol. The other instances of faith mentioned here are definitely faith based works, because who knew that God would part the sea or send a flood? Moses and Noah, by faith, knew it.
the work is in the obedience to the commands or instructions and we are having the same problem to this day...
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.[SUP](some say it is not necessary)
[/SUP]
Hebrews 13:16
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
But some still teach your good works is filthy rags




[SUP]16 [/SUP]This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
The faith vs. works argument for the ages! I know it well.


My point was that much of your argument is centered around the collecting manna being physically or spiritually connected to faith. There was no faith involved! Eating manna was necessary to sustain their lives and therefore made collecting it imperative.
I don't eat my breakfast in faith. I prepare it with the intention of sustaining my appetite to live. Plus it tastes good, that helps.

Some works of the flesh:


Eating manna - we must have sustenance
Drinking - we must take water
Sleeping - observe the tweeker
Earning a living - although in some USA states this isn't necessary, sadly
Cancer treatments - I could say going to the doctor but this analogy drives my point home better


Some works of The Spirit:


Faith: Believing God and thus being 'saved'; work: I answered God's call to salvation
Faith: Feasting on God's Word; work: Taking time to open God's word
Faith: Worshipping God; work: I made this manna; it is mine.
Faith: Prayer and fasting; work: Prayer and fasting


Hmmmm, funny - I wanted to list works of faith alone, but was compelled to list the work that results from the faith.


Alnyways, all are acceptable to God. You can't have faith without works. "The Father is working and I am working". If I am not sustained by manna, I am not working. If God is not sending the manna, then I am not sustained.


What about this, hiding God's messengers because of knowledge that they were God's messengers? There was a work involved, a possible ulterior motive - the saving of Rahab's family. It would appear that faith and a desire for a means to that faith are connected here. God accepted her 'work' as faith. "By faith Rahab ..."


Eh, you guys are heavy hitting arguers, much respect to you. I enjoyed reading your thread. Hopefully you can understand my 'works are faith' illustration. <smile>
The issue I am raising is more about do all works imply one is trying to earn something than about the topic of faith.

Some falsely argue that if you obey God by doing any obedient works then you are trying to earn your salvation.

The issue is simply this; did the work of gathering the manna mean they earned the manna? No. So this refutes any notion that obedience to Christ is earning salvation.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
I'm not going to do much for this debate. I will only state something to help you all in your discussion.

work

/wɜrk/ Show Spelled [wurk] Show IPA
noun 1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.

2. something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking: The students finished their work in class.

3. productive or operative activity.

4. employment, as in some form of industry, especially as a means of earning one's livelihood: to look for work.

5. one's place of employment: Don't phone him at work.


So work can be under definition 1) and 3) what SeaBass is claiming about the manna.

However, I'd like to define something else. Since theres 35 definitions of Free, I'll post the ones that are in the other people's arguments favor.

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]3.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]not subject (to) or restricted (by some regulation, constraint, etc); exempt: a free market ; free from pain [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]9.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]costing nothing; provided without charge: free entertainment [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]30.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]without charge or cost



So before you start arguing, you better figure out which of the definitions of Free you are talking about when it comes to a free gift :p.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Gathering manna is a work, an exertion, effort, labored expended.

The manna was free, it cost the Hebrews nothing, no charge.

So how could the Hebrews exertion/effort/labor in gathering ever earn them the manna when it was free of charge/no cost?
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Hopefully you can understand my 'works are faith' illustration. <smile>
I see faith is a work, Mk 2:1-5, so doing the work of faith is not earning anything, it's like gathering the manna
 
D

dabodab

Guest
the work is in the obedience to the commands or instructions and we are having the same problem to this day...
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.[SUP](some say it is not necessary)
[/SUP]
Hebrews 13:16
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
But some still teach your good works is filthy rags




[SUP]16 [/SUP]This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.
I get the feeling the first scriptures are for someone else?

The last three you named, I became convinced to read the verses myself.

Clearly the Israelites did not murmur about having to collect the manna. The 'work' part that they missed was trying to collect it on the sabbath (when it wasn't given) and God found out and was angry.

My mind is aflutter so reading the verses myself sure paid off. The misinformation earlier in the thread, that the Israelites did not want to gather the manna and subsequent perception (at least on my part) that the Israelites had to 'work' for it was unfounded. This, the crux of my argument, that the Israelites (and God) considered the gathering of manna a work, is hereby dismissed. <smile>

God did not consign these sinners to a day without manna over their sin. That's definitely good news.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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I get the feeling the first scriptures are for someone else?

The last three you named, I became convinced to read the verses myself.

Clearly the Israelites did not murmur about having to collect the manna. The 'work' part that they missed was trying to collect it on the sabbath (when it wasn't given) and God found out and was angry.

My mind is aflutter so reading the verses myself sure paid off. The misinformation earlier in the thread, that the Israelites did not want to gather the manna and subsequent perception (at least on my part) that the Israelites had to 'work' for it was unfounded. This, the crux of my argument, that the Israelites (and God) considered the gathering of manna a work, is hereby dismissed. <smile>

God did not consign these sinners to a day without manna over their sin. That's definitely good news.
actually the first part was generally speaking ....kinda like thinking aloud... I wish there was another word to use instead of work.. when we follow God's instructions. because in a true sense there is no "work" taking place. Just receiving and following instructions. Some consider this to be work so it is just a matter of opinion and words. But it has nothing to do with earning.
Glad you did read the scripture...
 

penknight

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2014
811
26
28
it is still your puppy. It is still my salvation. when I stand in front of God. i will either have many rewards. or watch my rewards burn as wood hay and straw (depending on what I did with my salvation) but as paul says, I am still saved, at that time, even though as through fire.

if I offer you a gift, and you mock me by saying you need to work for it. you can not believe I would give you something for free, I will not give you your gift. I will wait till you get on your knees and say you give, You will take the gift you want so badly.

sadly. Many will stand in front of Christ thinking they got the gift. only to realise God did not give it to them, because they did not trust him, and mocked him by trying to work for it, because they refused to believe God would give it to them for nothing.
Excellent point. This also applies to hypocritical believers, remember the Pharisees.
 
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penknight

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2014
811
26
28
And God's conditions on how the manna was to be received? Seriously, there is no faith alone. You all keep harping on this belief even though Scripture clearly states that there is no faith alone. The response always is well that's not how he meant it. Accept that obedience is a condition of salvation for without obedience we are those who will cry Lord Lord and be cast out.
Yes, faith without works is dead. But that applies to the change you want to make in life, when you pray for something God gives you the opportunities to do something to receive it. Repentance and changing your life comes from having a genuine faith, it's not something you have to do to show that your faith is real.
 

penknight

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2014
811
26
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It most certainly is the issue, Our salvation makes us children of promise, God offers to bless all children of God with blessings, of things such as manna,

He does not offer to those things which are not his children, or called out ones




No. That is not the issue.

the issue is God did what he did to us all. He offers us blessings, by grace (we can never earn it) and asked us to take it. It is NOT A WORK TO TAKE IT.

your trying to mix a condition of someone recieving something, and equating it with works. Does not compute..

next.
That's true.