It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[newbirth]

Re: E S in the Psalms; Ps 73

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. NKJV

katargeo:
kat(a) = thoroughly
a- =not
erg = work (e disappears added to a)
eo = verb ending

made thoroughly not working

BDAG:
1. to cause someth. to be unproductive, use up, exhaust, waste
of a tree κ. τὴν γῆν Lk 13:7


2. to cause someth. to lose its power or effectiveness, invalidate, make powerless fig. extension of 1
make ineffective, nullify
τὴν πίστιν τοῦ θεοῦ God’s fidelity Ro 3:3.
ἐπαγγελίαν Gal 3:17; cp. Ro 4:14;
τὰ ὄντα κ. nullify the things that (actually) exist 1 Cor 1:28.
τὸν νόμον make the law invalid Eph 2:15; cp. Ro 3:31


3. to cause someth. to come to an end or to be no longer in existence, abolish, wipe out, set aside τὶ someth.
τὰ τοῦ νηπίου set aside childish ways 1 Cor 13:11.

Of God or Christ:
God will do away with both stomach and food 6:13;
bring to an end πᾶσαν ἀρχήν, ἐξουσίαν, δύναμιν 15:24.

τὸν ἄνομον 2 Th 2:8.

τὸν θάνατον break the power of death 2 Ti 1:10;
pass. 1 Cor 15:26
τὸν τὸ κράτος ἔχοντα τοῦ θανάτου destroy the one who has power over death Hb 2:14.

ἵνα καταργηθῇ τὸ σῶμα τ. ἁμαρτίας in order that the sinful body may be done away with Ro 6:6.

In 2 Cor 3:14 the subject may be ἡ παλαιὰ διαθήκη or, more probably (despite some grammatical considerations),
κάλυμμα; in the latter case the mng. is remove.
—Pass. cease, pass away προφητεία, γνῶσις [=prophecy, knowledge] 1 Cor 13:8.

τὸ ἐκ μέρους what is imperfect vs. 10.

ἄρα κατήργηται τὸ σκάνδαλον τοῦ σταυροῦ the cross has ceased to be an obstacle Gal 5:11.

καταργούμενος doomed to perish
of the ἄρχοντες τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου 1 Cor 2:6.

Of the radiance on Moses’ face 2 Cor 3:7.

Subst. τὸ καταργούμενον what is transitory vss. 11, 13.


4. to cause the release of someone from an obligation (one has nothing more to do with it),
be discharged, be released.

Severed

is a misleading translation to the extent that katargeo does not refer to cutting something off, like a limb of a tree or an arm from a body.

The word does not imply that the one who would be justified by law used to be part of Christ & no longer is. But if you try to justified by the law (by obedience), then you cut yourself off / make yourself discharged from Christ's saving power. He is not your Savior then; you are your alleged savior.

NewB, it appears to me that you with your works salvation fit precisely into this verse. Am I wrong?

you judge for yourself

Matthew 3:10



And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[BradC]

Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Trees do not bear good fruit and are cast into the fire because they are bad trees.

Would we all agree that King David was a good tree and brought forth good fruit unto God in the kingdom of Israel? If we do, do we also agree that there was a time in his life that he bore some bad fruit concerning Bathsheba and her husband Uriah? That was not a good time for David nor for Israel and there was no good fruit that came of it. Read it yourself in (2 Sam 12). Perhaps a better understanding of (Matt 7) is in order. David would have died the sin unto physical death if God had not put away his sin.

 

[newbirth]

Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Trees do not bear good fruit and are cast into the fire because they are bad trees.

The fruit determines where the tree ends up....the tree is responsible for the fruit it bears...

 

[mailmandan]

No one here is saying works is the root of salvation

works is the Evidence of how much you blelieve

the evidence of things not seen

get it>

I get it but not everyone else gets it.

why you keep saying we teach works saves

Who is "we?"

we keep telling you WORKS CAN NOT SAVE ANYONE

Yet certain people will say that it's not works of the law but works of grace or good works that save or help to save us. I hear this from Catholics and people who attend the church of Christ.

but false fatih cannot save

Amen! James makes this clear (James 2:14-24).

to believe you dont have to keep the commandments
HAVE TO
HAVE TO KEEP the dommandments
to believe you DONT HAVE TO

will kill you

YOU HAVE TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS

Please define what it means to "KEEP" the Commandments.

because keeping the commandments is evidence you have the HOLY SPIRIT

you HAVE TO HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT

you ahve to be born again

if you are not keeping the commandments you do NOT have the holy spirit filling you

for he ALWAYS KEEPS EVERY WORD IN THE BIBLE

ithe commandments is a TEST to see if you have the TRUE HOLY SPIRIT

1 John 3:24 - And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

what would you way to a church that calls themselves
OF THE SPIRIT
when they have meetings, get riled up and then all go out and kill someobody for the excitemnt?

They lie and do not practice the truth.

same way with chiritians who go to CHRISTIAN ROCK concerts and say they ahve the spirit

that is NOT the holy spirit.

Big difference between killing someone for excitement and going to a Christian rock concert.

 

[newbirth]

Would we all agree that King David was a good tree and brought forth good fruit unto God in the kingdom of Israel? If we do, do we also agree that there was a time in his life that he bore some bad fruit concerning Bathsheba and her husband Uriah? That was not a good time for David nor for Israel and there was no good fruit that came of it. Read it yourself in (2 Sam 12). Perhaps a better understanding of (Matt 7) is in order. David would have died the sin unto physical death if God had not put away his sin.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

maybe we can get a better understanding here...
John 15:1-6
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[mailmandan]

The fruit determines where the tree ends up....the tree is responsible for the fruit it bears...

The fruit determines what kind of tree it is which determines where the tree ends up. The root of the issue is the tree did not bear good fruit because it was a bad tree.

 

[Atwood]

Eternal Security as a Doctrine Has Existed Since OT Times

ES was not invented 500 years ago. It has been around since OT times, e.g., Ps 23

"Surely goodness & mercy will follow me all the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the House of the LORD forever."
Superscription to Ps 23 " A Psalm of David.
David is famous for adultery & murdering the husband.
Yet he was secure in God's grace.
Even if he was chastized with 4 sons dying and a daughter raped by her own brother,
David was secure to dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

Likewise, Eternal Security is found in the NT,
"I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish."
"He who began a good work in you will perfect it."
You see, the Lord Jesus is the author ("to you it has been given . . . to believe"),
and the perfecter of our faith.
Our inheritance is incorruptible & undefiled, reserved in Heaven -- we are guarded.

ES is also found in Christendom after the NT. It was believed by Origen and all universalists and Jerome for example. Basil records that the belief was common. And Augustine attests to the doctrine existing. None of those people read documents from the 1500's or 1600. The evidence was posted below on this form.

 

[p_rehbein]

Re: Evidence of E S is Found in "Church Fathers"

Interesting web site concerning this subject.........guaranteed to make someone's blood boil.........

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrB...urity.htm/RK=0/RS=Z1G5J6I8HP6QRK6u7ugzZlbKMeU-

 

[Atwood]

Those that overcome, those that endure.

Good morning Kerry.

Those who overcome are explained in 1 John as the believer; and the believer/overcomer is secure. The Lord Jesus paid for all our sins. He may be & must be trusted as Savior, not dismissed as a mere "chance-giver."


Overcome is not "endure," though all who trust Christ do endure. They endure because He saves. The Lord Jesus is a Savior, not a leaking ark.

"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
"The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and
I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith."

"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and
unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death."

Be not fearful that somehow the Lord Jesus is a mere chance-giver, who will not save you. If you trust Him, you are an overcomer and secure in Him.

What was Paul talking about when He said backslider. Are we picking and choosing what parst of the bible we believe and throw the rest away.

I would say to quote your verse on backslider & make your case, except that we are going round & round now, responding to the came canards which have been already addressed.

So far as picking & choosing is concerned, I read the whole Bible through & marked everything on the subject in pink. But when you determine the doctrine of salvation, you focus on the verses that address that subject. You don't emphasize off-topic verses which never say "lose salvation," that phrase never occurs in Bible. If a verse does not say "salvation" or "eternal life" (or the equivalent), set it aside as of secondary importance on this doctrine.

John say's that it is impossible for believers to sin. Then say's that if we sin He is just to forgive us.

No, John says that that which is begotten of God does not sin. I take that to mean that our new natures do not sin. Compare Rom 7 where when Paul is sinning, he says it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me, that is in my flesh (Paul's old "me," Paul's Old Man). And Paul indicates near the end of Rom 7 that Christ Jesus will deliver Paul from the frustration with sin described in Rom 7.

Unrepentant sin can cause us to lose our salvation.

The Bible never says that at all. It does promise the believer chastisement. If what you said were true, would not all Christians lose their salvation every day? Is there not usually a time interval between a sin & the repentance? So during that time every day would you not be lost? This is unbiblical nonsense. Surely everyone has unrepented sin, things they did that they do not even remember.

What John is talking about is that as long as you are in Christ you will not desire to sin.

If John had meant that, he would have said so. But he does not. Actually Gal 5 says that the flesh lusts vs the Spirit. This is ongoing in all Christians. A lust is a desire to sin, and it is a sin itself. That doesn't mean that the Christian himself always wants to sin, but his flesh does. In the NT you don't go popping in & out of Christ; you do go in & out of fellowship with Him -- if you are saved.

If you cannot trust Christ as Savior, then you cannot be saved. You must depend on Him as Savior, not mere chance-giver. Anyone who relegates Christ to mere chance-giver, needs to repent at once.

 

[Atwood]

Can U Grasp How Great Is CHRIST'S LOVE FOR YOU?

Consider the great and immense love of God for the one who has trusted Christ as Savior (not chance-giver)

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? . . . Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from
the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sing it with the YouTube link:

Twila Paris - Lamb of God - YouTube

Your only Son, no sin to hide
But You have sent Him from Your side
To walk upon this guilty sod
And to become the Lamb of God

Your gift of love, they crucified
They laughed and scorned Him as He died
The humble King they named a fraud
And sacrificed the Lamb of God

Oh, Lamb of God, sweet Lamb of God
I love the Holy Lamb of God
Oh, wash me in His precious blood
My Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God

I was so lost I should have died
But You have brought me to Your side
To be led by Your staff and rod
And to be called a Lamb of God

Oh, Lamb of God, sweet Lamb of God
I love the Holy Lamb of God
Oh, wash me in His precious blood
Till I am just a Lamb of God

Oh, wash me in His precious blood
My Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God

 

[newbirth]

A man who believes in the Lord Jesus receives eternal life, not the possibility of eternal life.
"God so loved the World that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but HAVE everlasting life" -- not the possibility of it if he is a good boy.

If there is no condition why should one cut off one's hand or foot?


Mark 9:43-46
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Even to abide in him there are conditions
John 15:1-6
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[SUP]2[/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[newbirth]

The fruit determines what kind of tree it is which determines where the tree ends up. The root of the issue is the tree did not bear good fruit because it was a bad tree.

no one is saying that...the fact remains your fruit will determine where you end up but my point is we all have to bear fruit which determines our fate in the end.

 

[wgeurts]

Now you really need to think,
If you could "fall" from faith what would this be? In my opinion this would mean that you stopped believing in God all together.
But now you could question: Where they ever saved at all?

Read this passage:
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.

So John is questioning if a "Christian" once claimed to have faith but stops, did they ever have faith at all?
This would mean that if you stopped believing you could well not be saved, this means that both parties here are correct!
If you are TRUELY in Christ then you cannot fall and you will be saved as stated here:

John 6:38-40
I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

But if you thought you were a Christian/in Christ but leave and "fall", then you were never saved in the first place meaning no you won't go to heaven most likely. I say "most likely" as in the end God is the only one who truely knows your heart.

 

[Atwood]

If there is no condition why should one cut off one's hand or foot?

Mark 9:43-46
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off:

Note how you quote a passage in which salvation is not a topic. There is nothing in those verses about a Savior who saves you from sin, which is what salvation is all about. The hands & feet are instruments of work. You have to abandon work. In your mind cut off your hands & feet -- nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling. Don't let the pride of self and works prevent you from salvation. Whatever hinders you from trusting the Savior, get rid of it. Trust Him as Savior, not as "chance-giver."

For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Focus on what the word says on how to be saved:
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. Be content that He should save you; salvation is of the LORD. be content to be the one saved, the savee.

Even to abide in him there are conditions

You failed to quote a scripture that gave conditions for abiding in (fellowship with) Him. This makes sense as fellowship, nothing about salvation. Focus on passages that teach salvation: Focus on the passages which tell us that He is the Savior and what it is that gets Him to save us. Faith/trust in Him is the only thing required of man for salvation.

Actually then; Abiding (staying) in fellowship with Christ is the condition for fruit bearing (not fruit bearing then you can abide). Abide is the cause, fruit is the result. A parallel passage is in Gal 5 where good works are the fruit of the Spirit, not worked up by human effort.

1 john 3 "

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him."

Thus the cure for sin is abiding in [fellowship with] Christ.

All this says nothing about salvation, which is the Lord Jesus saving us sinners.

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.


O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified? This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 

[Cassian]

Re: Eternal Security as a Doctrine Has Existed Since OT Times

ES was not invented 500 years ago. It has been around since OT times, e.g., Ps 23

"Surely goodness & mercy will follow me all the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the House of the LORD forever."
Superscription to Ps 23 " A Psalm of David.
David is famous for adultery & murdering the husband.
Yet he was secure in God's grace.
Even if he was chastized with 4 sons dying and a daughter raped by her own brother,
David was secure to dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

Likewise, Eternal Security is found in the NT,
"I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish."
"He who began a good work in you will perfect it."
You see, the Lord Jesus is the author ("to you it has been given . . . to believe"),
and the perfecter of our faith.
Our inheritance is incorruptible & undefiled, reserved in Heaven -- we are guarded.

ES is also found in Christendom after the NT. It was believed by Origen and all universalists and Jerome for example. Basil records that the belief was common. And Augustine attests to the doctrine existing. None of those people read documents from the 1500's or 1600. The evidence was posted below on this form.

First, David, the story of Bathseba does not support ES. David sinned and would have died permanently spiritually, except that he repented. Huge difference.
Also, just because a couple of Chruch Fathers, namely Origin, who was condemned for his teachings on Universalism and pre-existence of the soul, and other teachings were not according the the original Gospel. Every false teachings has it root in the Church which is very logical. However, what is important is what the Church believed and practiced, not individual men. Man has never had any authority over scripture and man has never been able to impose his innovative ideas upon Christ's Gospel.

I have never read any of these people to support ES. ES possibly according to them is far different than the idea that you are espousing. I believe in eternal security as well, in two different ways, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the theory devised by Calvin which has become known as OSAS.

Of all men Basil was not and "eternal security" guy. Here is a quote from him.....

"Vain then is the labor of the righteous man, and free from blame is the way of the sinner, if a change befall, and the former turn from the better to the worse, and the latter from the worse to the better. So we hear from Ezekiel teaching as it were in the name of the Lord, when he says, if the righteous turns away and commits iniquity, I will not remember the righteousness which he committed before; in his sin he shall die, and so too about the sinner; if he turn away from his wickedness, and do that which is right, he shall live. Where were all the labours of God’s servant Moses, when the gainsaying of one moment shut him out from entering into the promised land? What became of the companionship of Gehazi with Elissæus, when he brought leprosy on himself by his covetousness? What availed all Solomon’s vast wisdom, and his previous regard for God, when afterwards from his mad love of women he fell into idolatry? Not even the blessed David was blameless, when his thoughts went astray and he sinned against the wife of Uriah. One example were surely enough for keeping safe one who is living a godly life, the fall from the better to the worse of Judas, who, after being so long Christ’s disciple, for a mean gain sold his Master and got a halter for himself. Learn then, brother, that it is not he who begins well who is perfect. It is he who ends well who is approved in God’s sight". (Letter 42. 1-2)

Hardly ES.

 

[Simona25]

Mark 9:43-46
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off

Note how you quote a passage in which salvation is not a topic. There is nothing in those verses about a Savior who saves you from sin, which is what salvation is all about. The hands & feet are instruments of work. You have to abandon work. In your mind cut off your hands & feet -- nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling. Don't let the pride of self and works prevent you from salvation. Whatever hinders you from trusting the Savior, get rid of it. Trust Him as Savior, not as "chance-giver."

That's not what the verse is saying. The verse says that if your ways (foot), your works (hand) and your eyes cause you to stumble (to sin) than you better remove them because it is preferable without them than to be spiritually mutilated.

 

[Atwood]

That's not what the verse is saying. The verse says that if your ways (foot), your works (hand) and your eyes cause you to stumble (to sin) than you better remove them because it is preferable without them than to be spiritually mutilated.

So if pressed, Simona, can you prove your claim? I mean you quote no scripture to prove it. Now how is someone going to be spiritually mutilated??? In the spirit realm, how are you going to cut off a hand?

You show how doctrine needs to be established from propositional teaching. Then the Parables and metaphors can be used to illustrate the propositional teaching.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Eternal Security as a Doctrine Has Existed Since OT Times

First, David, the story of Bathseba does not support ES. David sinned and would have died permanently spiritually, except that he repented.Hardly ES.

that is just you saying it, Cassian, which proves absolutely nothing. The Psalm says;

"I shall dwell in the House of the LORD forever." Now I believe not you, but God's Word. The Ps doesn't say, "I may make it to Heaven if I am a good boy & don't sin." It says "I shall dwell" -- no ifs ands or buts.

I don't know why you quote ol Basil. I did not say that Basil believed in ES; I said that he stated that it was a common belief among Christians in his day. My long post on this was strong evidence. But nothing depends on it, since it is not God's word. It does give evidence that you are utterly wrong in claiming that ES didn't exist until c. 500 years ago.

Anyone who cares, can go back & read it; but if you persist, I can repost it.

 

[Simona25]

So if pressed, Simona, can you prove your claim? I mean you quote no scripture to prove it. Now how is someone going to be spiritually mutilated??? In the spirit realm, how are you going to cut off a hand?

You show how doctrine needs to be established from propositional teaching. Then the Parables and metaphors can be used to illustrate the propositional teaching.

Sin is a disease that leads to death. We sin because we are death. Christ came to save us from death, to unite with us and to resurrect our fallen natures. Without God, we are mutilated, we are not perfected, we are incomplete, we can not progress in Life (He is Life and Love). So, this is what I understand by the verse: when we sin we move away from life (God) and this mutilates us spiritually. We are not ourselves when we are outside of God, it is not our normal state to be outside of God this is why I say that we are mutilated.

 

[Atwood]

no one is saying that...the fact remains your fruit will determine where you end up but my point is we all have to bear fruit which determines our fate in the end.

No, salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.