BEWARE the Lawkeepers

[stew88]

so what you are saying is that sin is Good? are you saying that we should not tri to sin by saying this you are promoting sin

1 John 3:4​

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

also why did jesus say in

Matthew 5:18
​

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

also justifying the wicked is also bad

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.

 

[chubbena]

Christ came to redeem men from bondage to the law, to remove their condemnation by paying the price the law demanded for man's sin. Those who try to bring believers back under the law are deceiving men and pointing them away from the finished work of Christ and true Bible freedom in Him. They themselves are cursed because of their false gospel, and they are leading others from truth into their curse. The goal of salvation is not to bring the believer to the law, but to present him perfect in Christ.

...David W. Cloud (Way of Life Encycopedia: Seventh Day Adventism: Conclusion)

Bondage to the law or bondage to sin?
Did God save the Israelites from the bondage of slavery only to put them under the bondage of the law that they couldn't no longer enjoy what they enjoy while being a slave in Egypt?

 

[chubbena]

I have spent much time on here uplifting the 7th day Sabbath and the commandments of God. would it shock you to know that I actually believe that the law on stone is done away with when we come to Christ by Faith?

What is your take on Jeremiah 31:31-33 then?

 

[chubbena]

so what you are saying is that sin is Good? are you saying that we should not tri to sin by saying this you are promoting sin

1 John 3:4​

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

also why did jesus say in

Matthew 5:18
​

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

also justifying the wicked is also bad

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.

Welcome to the kitchen!

 

[RedTent]

RedTent....

What part of Galatians 3:24-25 do you not understand?

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Christ came to affirm the law and thereby to make men see their sin and need of salvation. The law is a schoolmaster to lead men to the Savior. By exalting the requirements of the law and by showing men that the law requires even perfection of one’s thoughts and heart attitude, Christ made men see that they could not possibly attain righteousness through the law.

RedTent, are you still "under a schoolmaster"?

Our understanding of scripture is so different, I simply cannot understand how you can come up with your interpretation and I don't think you could understand mine. I had to do a LOT of study and praying over scripture.

Here is what that verse is saying: The schoolmaster shows us we need Christ, now we need faith in Christ. We don't need the schoolmaster any more, we have our faith in Christ.

It does not say that we do not need to ever use the law for anything again, and if you read other scripture (all the truth) many of them say we need the law to confirm that it is not saying that. I am not under law for salvation, but I am under law for love of my Savior. If I was under law for salvation, I would be dead in the Lord, for that wouldn't work. If I did not look to the Lord for how to walk with him (God can't walk with sin) but chose to live with sin in my heart to desire sin, than it would be a barrier between me and the Lord.

 

[chubbena]

when i first came to Christ, i was told just concentrate on the Gospels, don't worry about the OT, i'll get confused. i'm glad i was more interested in Gods word, than just the Gospels. hmmm.

Me too! I spent over 10 years preaching what they wanted me to preach - until one day I was bored and decided to read Jeremiah in one sitting then suddenly all became clear. It happened to be a Saturday and the rest is history.

 

[RedTent]

Me too! I spent over 10 years preaching what they wanted me to preach - until one day I was bored and decided to read Jeremiah in one sitting then suddenly all became clear. It happened to be a Saturday and the rest is history.

I had many a tear when I finally found the God of the Old Testament. It was almost as if I hadn't really known Christ before and now I could, besides learning so much about how our world works. But I had to have someone who had studied the culture and language of those times through new findings from ancient times to explain it to me. It is so deeply spiritual and with such layers of meaning, I couldn't understand it without help. But then, I think my worldly mind would get in the way. Stoning meant rocks flying and nothing more without help.

 

[Karraster]

I had many a tear when I finally found the God of the Old Testament. It was almost as if I hadn't really known Christ before and now I could, besides learning so much about how our world works. But I had to have someone who had studied the culture and language of those times through new findings from ancient times to explain it to me. It is so deeply spiritual and with such layers of meaning, I couldn't understand it without help. But then, I think my worldly mind would get in the way. Stoning meant rocks flying and nothing more without help.

Aman sister! On our best day, all of humanity put together quadrupled, could put together our understanding of our Creator and not even scratch the surface. None of us have it all completely right, but having a strong desire to know Him leads us back to the day our Creator sent His only begotten Son to Earth, to get some dust on our clothes as we walk as close as we can to our Messiah.

 

[crossnote]

Christ came to redeem men from bondage to the law, to remove their condemnation by paying the price the law demanded for man's sin. Those who try to bring believers back under the law are deceiving men and pointing them away from the finished work of Christ and true Bible freedom in Him. They themselves are cursed because of their false gospel, and they are leading others from truth into their curse. The goal of salvation is not to bring the believer to the law, but to present him perfect in Christ.

...David W. Cloud (Way of Life Encycopedia: Seventh Day Adventism: Conclusion)

What do you think of when you read of bondage in the bible? Isn't it sin? Christ paid for our sin. If you are under the law and not Christ wouldn't that mean that obedience to law would have to pay and not Christ? So that gets rid of law for salvation.

Now, you say that anyone is cursed if they try to keep the law for any reason. We have discarded salvation as a reason, but God loves us and after salvation God doesn't just drop us. He blesses us instead. The law shows us how to live in that blessing. So your teaching is not of God, you say you are cursed because of false gospel and telling us not to listen to God as God speaks to us is sure as anything false teaching.

Who are you talking to? It was an article and the author is not on CC...David W. Cloud (Way of Life Encycopedia: Seventh Day Adventism

 

[crossnote]

YES!!! If the Holy Spirit leads us to the law so we can understand it, and we have a triune God so Christ and the HS speak with one voice, it would shock me to hear you say this for much of what you say comes straight from scripture. The law on stone was put inside the arc of the covenant, the heart of where God was and we are to understand that through the HS and understand it beyond the physical.

The Holy Spirit reveals the law in order to convict us of sin and then points us to Christ.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; (Joh 16:8-9)

Then once He has convicted us of sin He continually points to Christ...

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(Joh 16:14)

 

[crossnote]

Bondage to the law or bondage to sin?
Did God save the Israelites from the bondage of slavery only to put them under the bondage of the law that they couldn't no longer enjoy what they enjoy while being a slave in Egypt?

Bondage to both.

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:4)

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
(Rom 7:6)

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(Rom 3:20)

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(Rom 6:14)

I could go on but for the lawaholics here, it might set them free in Christ. Ooops a reminder...

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
(Gal 5:1-5)

 

[crossnote]

Our understanding of scripture is so different, I simply cannot understand how you can come up with your interpretation and I don't think you could understand mine. I had to do a LOT of study and praying over scripture.

Here is what that verse is saying: The schoolmaster shows us we need Christ, now we need faith in Christ. We don't need the schoolmaster any more, we have our faith in Christ.

It does not say that we do not need to ever use the law for anything again, and if you read other scripture (all the truth) many of them say we need the law to confirm that it is not saying that. I am not under law for salvation, but I am under law for love of my Savior. If I was under law for salvation, I would be dead in the Lord, for that wouldn't work. If I did not look to the Lord for how to walk with him (God can't walk with sin) but chose to live with sin in my heart to desire sin, than it would be a barrier between me and the Lord.

So let me get this straight.
The law brings us to Christ and then once were are children of God, Christ brings us back to the law!
Hey now that's a winner.

 

[Karraster]

[FONT=Tempus Sans, Tempus Sans Serif, Tempus Sans ITC][SIZE=+2]actually...

Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings
Command ~ mitsvah
[SIZE=+1]By Jeff A. Benner[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][HR][/HR] [TABLE="align: center"]
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[/TD]
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[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia] The word command, as well as commandment, is used to translate the Hebrew word mits'vah but does not properly convey the meaning of mits'vah. The word command implies words of force or power as a General commands his troops. The word mits'vah is better understood as a directive. To see the picture painted by this word it is helpful to look at a related word, tsiyon meaning a desert or a landmark. The Ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people who traveled the deserts in search of green pastures for their flocks. A nomad uses the various rivers, mountains, rock outcroppings, etc as landmarks to give them their direction. The verb form of mits'vah is tsavah meaning to direct one on a journey. The mits'vah of the Bible are not commands, or rules and regulations, they are directives or landmarks that we look for to guide us. The word tsiyon meaning landmark is also the word translated as Zion, the mountain of God but, not just a mountain, it is the landmark.

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[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]AHLB# 1397-H (h[SUP]1[/SUP])[/FONT]

 

[Karraster]

[FONT=Tempus Sans, Tempus Sans Serif, Tempus Sans ITC][SIZE=+2]and actually...

Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings
Law ~ torah
[SIZE=+1]By Jeff A. Benner[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][HR][/HR] [TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
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[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia] To interpret the Hebrew word torah as law is about the same as interpreting the word father as disciplinarian. While the father is a disciplinarian he is much more and in the same way torah is much more than law. The word torah is derived from the root yarah meaning to throw. This can be any kind of throwing such as a rock or an arrow from the bow or throwing the finger in a direction to point something out. Another word derived from this root is the word moreh which can mean and archer, one who throws the arrow, or a teacher, as one who points the way. The word torah is literally the teachings of the teacher or parent. When a parent is teaching a child a new task and he demonstrates a willingness to learn but fails to grasp the teaching completely the parent does not punish the child but rather encourages and builds on the teaching. In contrast to this a law is a set of rules that if not observed correctly will result in punishment and there is no room for teaching. The torah of God are his teachings to his children which are given in love to encourage and strengthen.

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[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]AHLB# 1227-H (i1)[/FONT]

 

[Karraster]

did ya get that?

The torah of God are his teachings to his children which are given in love to encourage and strengthen.

 

[RedTent]

So let me get this straight.
The law brings us to Christ and then once were are children of God, Christ brings us back to the law!
Hey now that's a winner.

Yes, it is a winner!!
Joh_14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

 

[crossnote]

Yes, it is a winner!!
Joh_14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

Which are...?

 

[RedTent]

The Holy Spirit reveals the law in order to convict us of sin and then points us to Christ.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; (Joh 16:8-9)

Then once He has convicted us of sin He continually points to Christ...

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(Joh 16:14)

Very good, now if you add the word "only" to limit God, you will be more honest about your beliefs.

 

[crossnote]

Very good, now if you add the word "only" to limit God, you will be more honest about your beliefs.

Implying not only does He point us to Christ as Christians but also to the law?
I'd say yes, for those who refuse His finger pointing to trust in Christ. His conviction of sin via the law is ongoing as we fail to look to Jesus.

 

[haz]

Hey Haz, blessings.

I am SDA, Our stance on those who do not Keep the 7th day Sabbath is simple. We believe and teach that there will probably be more people saved who currently do not keep the 7th day Sabbath than those who do currently keep it.

The reason for this is that Many SDA's think that by keeping it they will be saved and thus they make it about a legal works based position rather than a Faith Based relationship with Jesus who died for our sins. Not every SDA Is like this but many are.

Most SDA that I've spoken with all claim that not keeping Sabbath leads to eternal damnation. Some say this directly, whilst others say it indirectly. This latter group initially state that not keeping the Sabbath is ok, until one comes to a point in their Christian walk where God expects it of them, and any who refuse are then guilty of sinning wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth.

Gotime, do you agree with that second group I described above or is your SDA view different?

I see scripture differently from SDA.
When we become a Christian we are then one spirit with The Lord, 1Cor 6:17. We're married to Christ.

note also how there are many scriptures warning against sexual immorality. This is all referring to spiritual sexual immorality ( remember scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14).

Being one spirit with The Lord, then we should not be lusting after another.
and who is the alternative that we are to avoid?
Gal 4:24 tells us. It's Hagar, who is symbolic for the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law.

Rom 11:6 tells us that we cannot mix works of the law (symbolised as Hagar, Gal 4:24) with grace ( being one spirit with The Lord).

the law is just, good and holy, Rom 7:12, but as a means for us to attain or even prove righteousness, we see that all the world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19.

Hence thats why Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4

legalists often lose sight of what they have in Christ (righteousness, holiness, completeness, perfection). As James 1 describes, they are like the man who sees himself in a mirror but as soon as he turns away from it he forgets what manner of man he was.

Don't let legalistic doctrines rob you of your salvation. A little leaven (doctrine of righteousness by works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9.