Baptism Essential to Salvation

[newbirth]

Jn 3:5 water means literal water.....born of water being water baptism.


Jn 3:5-----------------spirit+++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------------spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>in the body

With both verses having the same meaning, then 'born of water" of Jn 3:5 is equivalent to "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13.
So "born of water" in Jn 3:5 has nothing to do with the natural birth no more than "baptized " of 1 Cor 12:13 has to do with the natural birth.


Acts 2:38 tells me water baptism is for the remission of sins/salvation not "...a symbol of leaving our earthly life behind..."


Rev 1:5 John said Christ washed us from our sins in His own blood
Jn 19:34 Christ shed His blood in His death.
Rom 6:3-6 one is water baptized into the death of Christ where His shed blood washes away sins

So water baptism saves because it is the point where Christ's blood washes away sins. 'Belief only' does not get one into the death of Christ.


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You post: Should we be baptized? Yes

If water baptism is not necessary to being saved, then why should one be baptized?

we are saved by grace....through faith, water baptism is an act of obedience of faith and very necessary. Through faith does not mean one act or two acts of obedience will save you ,it is a life of obedience. Salvation is in Christ one cannot be in Christ and be disobedient. Have we so soon forgotten Adam and Eve the moment they tasted the fruit they became separated from God. It is beyond me why men would think they can sin and still have fellowship with Christ one must repent.He said if you confess your sin he is faithful to forgive. Men even boast how they can live evil lives and still be a child of God. What fellowship has light with darkness?
1 John 3:10
English Standard Version
By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The problem here is if the anti-water baptism crowd think they can (1) get one saved on his death-bed WITHOUT being water baptized, then they will think (2) ANYONE can be saved whether on a death-bed or not WITHOUT being water baptized. So they are wrong on both counts.

No. thats not the problem.

The problem is we have people today who are no better than the jews, who claimed we needed physical circumcision by men to be saved, only they replace circumcision with baptism.

When God says we need to be spiritually circumcised by the had of God himself (HS Baptism) to be cleansed.

Jesus called this blasphemy of the spirit. (replacing the work of God with the work of man or satan or a demon)

 

[posthuman]

Read the incident of Phillip and the eunuch. Did Phillip carry water around with him?

no, he didn't. maybe he believed it wasn't so important that water be applied to a believer immediately, lest his soul be lost, even though he believed?
but Philip traveled with the Eunuch. and they came to water - which no man, but God provided.
i rather believe that God also provides for us, don't you?

but you've told me in another place that if a man was trapped alone on a desert island, with nothing but the Bible with him, he couldn't be saved.

the water that Christ carried with Him was living water, of which if we drink we will never thirst again.

i think it's interesting that there is no record of Jesus ever baptizing the twelve with water -- only that He washed their feet, long after He called them to follow. when He called them, all He asked was that they follow Him, and that took nothing but faith to be obedient to the call.

 

[Billyd]

Jn 3:5 water means literal water.....born of water being water baptism.


Jn 3:5-----------------spirit+++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------------spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>in the body

With both verses having the same meaning, then 'born of water" of Jn 3:5 is equivalent to "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13.
So "born of water" in Jn 3:5 has nothing to do with the natural birth no more than "baptized " of 1 Cor 12:13 has to do with the natural birth.


Acts 2:38 tells me water baptism is for the remission of sins/salvation not "...a symbol of leaving our earthly life behind..."


Rev 1:5 John said Christ washed us from our sins in His own blood
Jn 19:34 Christ shed His blood in His death.
Rom 6:3-6 one is water baptized into the death of Christ where His shed blood washes away sins

So water baptism saves because it is the point where Christ's blood washes away sins. 'Belief only' does not get one into the death of Christ.


----------------------------------------------------------------
You post: Should we be baptized? Yes

If water baptism is not necessary to being saved, then why should one be baptized?

Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall, I have no intention of doing that. Here's the completion of you last comment.

Should we be baptized? Yes. You show the world that you are leaving the life of your birth behind, and committing to your new life in Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.

If water baptism is necessary for salvation, why was it not included in every instance of salvation in the Bible?

My final comment on belief for eternal life. Here is the definition of Belief as it appears in the Greek text.

[TABLE="class: MainVerseTable"]
[TR]
[TD][SIZE=+1]pisteuvw [/SIZE]Pisteuo (pist-yoo'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 4100[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   1. to be intrusted with a thing

[TABLE="class: MainVerseTable"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]KJV Word Usage and Count[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]believe [/TD]
[TD]239 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]commit unto [/TD]
[TD]4 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]commit to (one's) trust [/TD]
[TD]1 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]be committed unto [/TD]
[TD]1 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]be put in trust with [/TD]
[TD]1 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]be commit to one's trust [/TD]
[TD]1 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]believer [/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I can see that it is possible for you to misinterpret it's meaning, but when you take it in it's context, the message is clear. You must entrust your entire self to Christ to have eternal life. It requires no pomp and circumstances. You can take a dip if you want to. For me and my household, we will continue to put our faith and trust in Jesus. Without Him we would still be crawling around in the armpits of the secular world, searching for the peace that we have in His promise.

 

[Apostol2013]

The water baptism is necessary for salvation , that is it the apostles taught it Jesus taught it even by example even being God He did it to show us the primary example and not just purely by example , many churches I seen baptizing people back to back but each and every person being baptized must be taught the reason of why they are doing it and the responsibility they are taking on with the free gift given and the new life we are to take on , it is necessary they are educated in true Christianity .

 

[SeaBass]

No. thats not the problem.

The problem is we have people today who are no better than the jews, who claimed we needed physical circumcision by men to be saved, only they replace circumcision with baptism.

When God says we need to be spiritually circumcised by the had of God himself (HS Baptism) to be cleansed.

Jesus called this blasphemy of the spirit. (replacing the work of God with the work of man or satan or a demon)

I have not seen any one say a physical circumcision is necessary to being saved.

Col 2:11,12 God performs a spiritual circumcision in cutting away the body of sin, but God does this when one is buried in baptism, no where else.

 

[SeaBass]

no, he didn't. maybe he believed it wasn't so important that water be applied to a believer immediately, lest his soul be lost, even though he believed?
but Philip traveled with the Eunuch. and they came to water - which no man, but God provided.
i rather believe that God also provides for us, don't you?

God made all the water in the world, and said to use it to baptize for remission of sins.

but you've told me in another place that if a man was trapped alone on a desert island, with nothing but the Bible with him, he couldn't be saved.

Circumstances as this or death-beds do not change God's word.

the water that Christ carried with Him was living water, of which if we drink we will never thirst again.

i think it's interesting that there is no record of Jesus ever baptizing the twelve with water -- only that He washed their feet, long after He called them to follow. when He called them, all He asked was that they follow Him, and that took nothing but faith to be obedient to the call.

Jesus' living water is His word. His word says to be baptized.

"the word" - Jn 15:3; Eph 5:26; Phil 2:16; Heb 4:12;

 

[SeaBass]

Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall, I have no intention of doing that. Here's the completion of you last comment.

Should we be baptized? Yes. You show the world that you are leaving the life of your birth behind, and committing to your new life in Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.

If water baptism is necessary for salvation, why was it not included in every instance of salvation in the Bible?

My final comment on belief for eternal life. Here is the definition of Belief as it appears in the Greek text.

[TABLE="class: MainVerseTable"]
[TR]
[TD][SIZE=+1]pisteuvw [/SIZE]Pisteuo (pist-yoo'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 4100[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   1. to be intrusted with a thing

[TABLE="class: MainVerseTable"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]KJV Word Usage and Count[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]believe[/TD]
[TD]239[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]commit unto[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]commit to (one's) trust[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]be committed unto[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]be put in trust with[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]be commit to one's trust[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]believer[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I can see that it is possible for you to misinterpret it's meaning, but when you take it in it's context, the message is clear. You must entrust your entire self to Christ to have eternal life. It requires no pomp and circumstances. You can take a dip if you want to. For me and my household, we will continue to put our faith and trust in Jesus. Without Him we would still be crawling around in the armpits of the secular world, searching for the peace that we have in His promise.

1) Acts 2:41,44 - reading these two verses you will see that "believed" in v44 INCLUDES being baptized of v41. So "believed" in verse 44 is used as a synecdoche were the word "believed" includes baptism.

2) if grace or the blood of Christ are necessary to salvation, then why aren't both specifically mentioned in every instance of conversion in the bible?

 

[homwardbound]

The OT law is different from NT law and the OT law had no baptism for remission of sins for they did not have the shed blood of Christ....without shedding of blood is no remission of sin, Heb 9:22.

Walking in the light (repenting) is a sustained, ongoing life long commitment.

No work of repentance = no salvation.

So essentially Baptism is in the blood then right and Jesus is the last sacrifice and last shedding of blood then right, so it is done, and all man's supposed righteousness he does afterwards is dung as Paul said it, put no confidence in self flesh
Love it Thanks Seabass

 

[homwardbound]

No, the gospel does not teach "death-bed" salvation.

Right it teaches belief in God by Son the Christ= salvation, Thank you again, and who knows when one is saved but God and that person. When fear is gone, one knows and not arrogantly, humbly, there is a big difference
you know if I must be immersed, immerse me in the blood of Christ, as I wait for the new life, if I have not received it yet, and if have which by belief one has, then its time to renew the mind you think, from God's perspective or mankind's?

 

[homwardbound]

The thief lived and died under the OT law and therefore is not an example of NT salvation.

And when he believed he lived, whether under old or not, he saw Jesus as the Christ and believed:
John 14:6 [Full Chapter]
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[SeaBass]

So essentially Baptism is in the blood then right and Jesus is the last sacrifice and last shedding of blood then right, so it is done, and all man's supposed righteousness he does afterwards is dung as Paul said it, put no confidence in self flesh
Love it Thanks Seabass

Christ shed His blood in His death, ergo God has made it where water baptism puts one in Christ's death, Rom 6:3-5, where there in baptism that shed blood washes away sins/God cuts away the body of sin, Col 2:11,12.

 

[SeaBass]

Right it teaches belief in God by Son the Christ= salvation, Thank you again, and who knows when one is saved but God and that person. When fear is gone, one knows and not arrogantly, humbly, there is a big difference
you know if I must be immersed, immerse me in the blood of Christ, as I wait for the new life, if I have not received it yet, and if have which by belief one has, then its time to renew the mind you think, from God's perspective or mankind's?

The gospel teaches that one must believe, Jn 8:24; repent, Lk 13:3,5, confess, Mt 10:32,33; be baptized Mk 16:16.

Water baptism is the point God has chosen to put one in contact with the blood of Christ.

 

[homwardbound]

Heb 9:16,17 Christ's NT would not come into effect until some time AFTER He died. So thief was under the OT law at the time he was promised paradise and is not an example of NT salvation.

And all the Old (First) testament Saints promised as well, and when ?Christ rose from the dead he took all those that believed with him to Heaven in Spirit and truth, where the Devil lost the keys he had hold of, victory in Christ completed

Proof in the resurrected Christ and took captivity captive, preach to the Spirits that were held in prison as when the Devil thought he had him, when he did not ever have him, only thought he did and lost
The Prince of this world has been judged, defeated, stripped naked, exposed, made toothless, declawed. All the enemy has left is fear:

Have I done good enough, do I need water Baptism, waht if I do not do it right? Did I go to the right Church? And on and on goes "Doubt" that started the whole mess in the first place and they ate from the knowledge of good and evil and became as Gods, sent out of the Garden to till the ground for themselves, stealing, killing and destroying any and all that ever got in their way
God just love you all, period so much that he sent his one and only Son to die for you, and give you new life in Spirit and truth, b y the resurrected Christ, Father does this for you, if you beleive. Now go ahead and dispute this fact, bring out the Doubt unbelief, that Eve saw by the deception that was given to her to doubt, and saw that it was inviting her to eat, and now has been passed on from generation to generation
It is only in and through Christ one gets new life in Spirit and truth, and that takes Faith

 

[SeaBass]

And when he believed he lived, whether under old or not, he saw Jesus as the Christ and believed:
John 14:6 [Full Chapter]
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1) the thief lived and died under the OT law and is not an example of NT salvation

2) Heb 9:16,17, the NT did not come into effect until some time AFTER Christ died, so the thief was not under nor accountable to it. Yet those of us who live AFTER Acts 2:38 are accountable to it.

3) for all we know, the thief may have been a disciple baptized with John's baptism but later fell into a life of crime.

4) Matt 9:6 when Christ was "ON EARTH" he had the authority/power to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. Yet Christ left earth some 2000 years ago, so how can anyone claim they are saved just like the thief when Christ is NOT here on earth today going around and forgiving sins as He was at the time of the thief? When Christ left earth some 2000 years ago, He left behind His word as His authority on earth and His word requires belief, repentance, confession and baptism to be saved for us today.

 

[SeaBass]

And all the Old (First) testament Saints promised as well, and when ?Christ rose from the dead he took all those that believed with him to Heaven in Spirit and truth, where the Devil lost the keys he had hold of, victory in Christ completed

Proof in the resurrected Christ and took captivity captive, preach to the Spirits that were held in prison as when the Devil thought he had him, when he did not ever have him, only thought he did and lost
The Prince of this world has been judged, defeated, stripped naked, exposed, made toothless, declawed. All the enemy has left is fear:

Have I done good enough, do I need water Baptism, waht if I do not do it right? Did I go to the right Church? And on and on goes "Doubt" that started the whole mess in the first place and they ate from the knowledge of good and evil and became as Gods, sent out of the Garden to till the ground for themselves, stealing, killing and destroying any and all that ever got in their way
God just love you all, period so much that he sent his one and only Son to die for you, and give you new life in Spirit and truth, b y the resurrected Christ, Father does this for you, if you beleive. Now go ahead and dispute this fact, bring out the Doubt unbelief, that Eve saw by the deception that was given to her to doubt, and saw that it was inviting her to eat, and now has been passed on from generation to generation
It is only in and through Christ one gets new life in Spirit and truth, and that takes Faith

So those that lived under the OT law as the thief, Noah, Abraham, David, etc., all lived BEFORE Acts 2:38 came into effect so they were not accountable to it like we today who live AFTER Acts 2:38 are accountable to it.

Acts 2:47 after one is baptized God adds him to the right church, the one and only church that was established on Pentecost.

Acts 2:47 "praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved."

Who in Acts 2 were being saved? The ones that obeyed verse 38.

 

[homwardbound]

We are all sinners. I don't even know what you're talking about. I think you've been listening to Atwood too much.

Renew the mind after you believe God
Maybe if you see things from God's point of view you might see from God's viewpoint we by Son, the Christ are made new, perfect in Father's sight by Son's death so since by Son's death we are made righteous in front of Father, and this is where Father inh the power of the Holy Spirit takes up residence in us to straighten us out, and tewaches us how to walk by Faith as Son already did

So go ahead and view from the flesh world of things, and be that sinner and stay that sinner separated from God, your free choice, yet if you are God's belong to God then I know this and trust this:

Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

Thank you Jesus fro waht you did not only for me but for the whole world for all that will come to believe you and you alone, love for for loving me and all first

 

[homwardbound]

I am just now getting around to your post. Better late than never.

let me rephrase the question. I'm looking for a scripture anywhere that says baptism was necessary under the law of Moses.

where does it say that God baptized you into Christ? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Bible scholar F. F. Bruce says that a word or phrase is to be taken literally in Scripture unless the context shows it should be figurative. There is nothing in Romans 6:3-6 that gives the impression that it is figurative. Only Christ can administer Holy Spirit baptism. The baptism of the great commission, is obviously water. Man cannot administer Holy Spirit baptism so it could not have been Holy Spirit baptism that Jesus asked the Apostles to perform when he issued the great commission.

Understand I am not saying we do not receive the Holy Spirit. We all receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptized, just like they were on the day of Pentecost.(Acts 2:38), But that is not the same as Holy Spirit baptism.

you are right, the water itself does not save. But it's the act of obedience to God's word that saves us. Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38

The Levites were put in Charge after they were freed from Egypt to do all the law and concentrate on God for the other tribes, that supported the levites tribe

They before going into the Holy holies carrying their sins and the peoples sins, were water Baptized before entering into the Temple behind the curtain, tied to a rope, so they could be pulled out if they died while in there, if they did not confess all of their sins prior to going in there
And Water Baptism was never public, until John the Baptist, and became public as for John to do John's job and water Baptize the Christ, and did not want to, when the Christ came upon him for John to do so
And Christ told John to do it for now, because Christ needed to do all that was right, and the Levites, would have never done this, since the Christ came from a different tribe Judah
Christ came to fill the Law and Prophets of Old, he did this and took this completed work with him to the cross and killed the old Law in literally us having to perform what we can't being in unredeemed flesh, and placed his blood on the Mercy seat for all that come to believe get new life in Spirit and truth by the resurrected Christ from Father a gift to us to appreciate not earn

 

[homwardbound]

when he said ye would be baptized with the Holy Ghost, he was talking to the apostles not all of mankind.

Sorry for you then, God is awesome and saves all that believe God, and God confirms this by:

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Now that is the Baptism friend, praying for you and all to receive, and only by God can anyone receive

First beleive and stay steadfast on this belief, then one day receive and see, by God and God alone through Son, the Christ alone
See Son see Father too simple for the finite mind of flesh that wants control, to be master instead of server you think?

 

[Timeline]

None of these passages promises anyone today baptism with the Holy Spirit. In Mt 3:11, no one can make themselves be the either of the pronouns "you" when it does not refer to them.

1 John 5:5-8
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? [SUP]6 [/SUP]This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For there are three that testify: [SUP]8 [/SUP]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Ephesians 4:1-7
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, [SUP]2 [/SUP]with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, [SUP]3 [/SUP]being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [SUP]4 [/SUP]There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;[SUP]5 [/SUP]one Lord, one faith, one baptism, [SUP]6 [/SUP]one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.[SUP]7 [/SUP]But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore it says,
“When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.”

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Jesus does not say "you" here. He says "No one" can enter unless they are born of water and the Spirit. I definitely would not discourage anyone from being baptized in water, but it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves. The New Testament records people receiving the Holy Spirit before, after, and during water baptism. But we did receive the example of being baptized in water and therefore should follow that example.

I will also mention the fact that Jesus told Pilate that He was the King before He was crucified. He did not say that He was going to be King, but that He already was. So if the King was there, what was He King of? Did He not preach that the Kingdom was "at hand"? Notice that when He said, " ... “Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. [SUP]46 [/SUP]Get up, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!” the following verse said, [SUP] "[/SUP]While He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, came up accompanied by a large crowd with swords and clubs, who came from the chief priests and elders of the people."


John 18:37
Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”