It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

Hoffco · Jul 13, 2014

To Atwood , You are sssssssssssssSO wrong. You did not read Romans 2 very well. If we are people of Good works we will be rewarded with ETERNAL LIFE; if we are immoral, we will receive wrath and indignation. I think you better read the whole word of God and stop deceiving sinners and sending them to Hell with half of the truth. Read Gal 6:7-10 again, for the first time ,maybe, you might see the whole truth. May you be blessed with faith and a holy life, so you have the right and the fitness to enter Heaven. Love to all. Hoffco

Alligator · Jul 13, 2014

Re: Continue in Willful Sin?

Atwood said:

By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Have you heard of the atonement of Christ? How He paid for our sins once for all?

That is the basis of the following:

Q Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee?
A I believe it.

Q Dost thou thank him for his passion and death?
A I do thank him.

Q Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death?
A I believe it.

Come then, while life remaineth in thee: in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust; to his death commit thyself wholly, with this alone cover thyself wholly;

and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee,
say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’

And if he shall say that thou art a sinner,
say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee.

‘If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation,
say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’

If he say that he is wroth with thee,
say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me.

‘And when thou hast completed this,
say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’

Attributed to Anselm of Canterbury (c. 1033-1109)

because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us. For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. - Rom 5

you are off the subject but I'm well aware that Jesus shed His blood once for all. But not for future sins that haven't even been.committed yet. No one reading chapter 10 of Hebrews with an open mind and come away believing that they will still be saved if they.continue in willful sin.

Butch5 · Jul 13, 2014

I can't believe there are 178 pages on a doctrine that can't be found in Scripture or church history prior to the 1500's

newbirth · Jul 13, 2014

Re: The Topic is Eternal Security

Atwood said:

At the momentI am reading 1 John 5

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: ( I believe Jesus is the Christ so I am Born of God)

and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (I love God so I love those who believe in him)

By this we know that we love the children of God,(but how do I know if I really love them?)

when we love God, and keep his commandments.( so loving God and keeping his commandments is loving the children of God)
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.(what are the commandments we must keep if we love God?)
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. ( I am born of God so I will overcome the world by faith)
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?( he who overcomes the world is he who believes Jesus is the Son of God)
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.( by water ,baptized, by blood crucified ,And the holy spirit bears witness)
For there are three that bear record (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.) green not in original manuscripts.
the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. (we must agree with this also)

So far it is all clear but what of the commandments? one command is.. loving the children of God

Atwood · Jul 13, 2014

ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Butch5 said:

Good Morning Butch,

The doctrine is abundantly taught in scripture. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

He who began a good work in you will complete it.

Jesus Christ is the author & perfecter of our faith.

No condemnation.

We have an inheritance incorrruptible & undefiled reserved in Heaven, guarded by the power of God.

foreknew>foreordained>called>justified>glorified (Rom 8)

Nothing can separate the believer from the special love of God which is in Christ Jesus.

The Overcomer (= believer) will not be blotted out of the book of Life.
(& much etc.)
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CHURCH HISTORY

Doctrine comes from God's word, not human tradition. But for the sake of argument you claim no ES before 1500's, yet it is not only in Scripture (2000 yrs ago) but also testified to by Church Fathers. First there were many who believed in universalism, which is an extreme form of ES. I have posted a long post on that.

Instead of pontificating without proof, Butch, start by checking a standard Early Christian Doctrines text like that of J.N.D. Kelly, HarperCollins Publishers.

Now I would ask you Butch, if Origen, Augustine, Jerome, Ambrose, Hilary, and Ambrosiaster all lived after 1500???

Here is an internet quote which starts with Augustine's testimony as to the existence of the ES doctrine:

Augustine wrote about the large variety of views of salvation that existed in his day, including some that involved some form of eternal security:

"I must now, I see, enter the lists of amicable controversy with those tender-hearted Christians who decline to believe that any, . . . of those whom the . . . Judge may pronounce worthy . . . hell, shall suffer eternally, and who suppose that they shall be delivered after a fixed term of punishment . . . In respect of this matter, Origen . . . believed that even the devil himself and his angels . . . should be delivered from their torment, . . . . But the Church, not without reason, condemned him for this and other errors...

There are others, . . . who, . . . attribute to God a still greater compassion towards men. . . . when the judgment comes, mercy will prevail. . . .

So, too, there are others who promise this deliverance from eternal punishment, not, indeed, to all men, but only to those who have been washed in Christian baptism, and who become partakers of the body of Christ, no matter how they have lived, or what heresy or impiety they have fallen into. They ground this opinion on the saying of Jesus, 'This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that if any man eat thereof, he shall not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If a man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever.' Therefore, say they, it follows that these persons must be delivered from death eternal, and at one time or other be introduced to everlasting life.

There are others still who make this promise not even to all who have received the sacraments of the baptism of Christ and of His body, but only to the Catholics, however badly they have lived. For these . . . being incorporated in His body, as the apostle says, 'We, being many, are one bread, one body;' so that, though they have afterwards lapsed into some heresy, or even into heathenism and idolatry, yet by virtue of this one thing, that they have received the baptism of Christ, and eaten the body of Christ, in the body of Christ, that is to say, in the catholic Church, they shall not die eternally, but at one time or other obtain eternal life; and all that wickedness of theirs shall not avail to make their punishment eternal, but only proportionately long and severe....

But, say they [others], the catholic Christians have Christ for a foundation, and they have not fallen away from union with Him, no matter how depraved a life they have built on this foundation, as wood, hay, stubble; and accordingly the well-directed faith by which Christ is their foundation will suffice to deliver them some time from the continuance of that fire, though it be with loss, since those things they have built on it shall be burned." (The City Of God, 21:17-20, 21:22, 21:26)

Some other examples:

"Saint Jerome, though an enemy of Origen, was, when it came to salvation, more of an Origenist than Ambrose. He believed that all sinners, all mortal beings, with the exception of Satan, atheists, and the ungodly, would be saved: 'Just as we believe that the torments of the Devil, of all the deniers of God, of the ungodly who have said in their hearts, 'there is no God,' will be eternal, so too do we believe that the judgment of Christian sinners, whose works will be tried and purged in fire will be moderate and mixed with clemency.' Furthermore, 'He who with all his spirit has placed his faith in Christ, even if he die in sin, shall by his faith live forever.'" (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth Of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 61)

"Jerome develops the same distinction, stating that, while the Devil and the impious who have denied God will be tortured without remission, those who have trusted in Christ, even if they have sinned and fallen away, will eventually be saved. Much the same teaching appears in
Ambrose, developed in greater detail." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 484)

"Like Hilary and Ambrose,
Ambrosiaster distinguishes three categories: the saints and the righteous, who will go directly to heaven at the time of the resurrection; the ungodly, apostates, infidels, and atheists, who will go directly into the fiery torments of Hell; and the ordinary Christians, who, though sinners, will first pay their debt and for a time be purified by fire but then go to Paradise because they had the faith. Commenting on Paul, Ambrosiaster writes:

'He [Paul] said: 'yet so as by fire,' because this salvation exists not without pain; for he did not say, 'he shall be saved by fire,' but when he says, 'yet so as by fire,' he wants to show that this salvation is to come, but that he must suffer the pains of fire; so that, purged by fire, he may be saved and not, like the infidels [perfidi], tormented forever by eternal fire; if for a portion of his works he has some value, it is because he believed in Christ.'" (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth Of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 61)

"we find Ambrosiaster teaching that, while the really wicked, 'will be tormented with everlasting punishment', the chastisement of Christian sinners will be of a temporary duration." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 484)

Atwood · Jul 13, 2014

Re: The Topic is Eternal Security

newbirth said:

At the momentI am reading 1 John 5

I commend you NewB for your attention to the word. My responses are in blue.
------------

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: ( I believe Jesus is the Christ so I am Born of God)
I take that to mean that you trust in this, not merely accept is as fact, as demons believe the fact. Taking this to imply trust (not mere factual believe) is based on the meaning of the Greek verb pisteuo.
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By this we know that we love the children of God,(but how do I know if I really love them?)

You seek their good unselfishly without regard to any personal gain. You care for them. Without any attempt to gain points with them or to enlarge your religious ego, you do what you believe is best for them. In fact, you would die for them.

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when we love God, and keep his commandments.( so loving God and keeping his commandments is loving the children of God)

Of course if we love God, we want to please Him; we adore Him.
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For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.(what are the commandments we must keep if we love God?)

All of them which are given to the Church. But we trust the Lord Jesus and pray for wisdom so that we discern what is His will. We keep in mind that all commandments must be viewed as inferior to and aspects of loving God & neighbor as self.
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For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. ( I am born of God so I will overcome the world by faith)

If you are born of God then you do overcome the world. Our trust in Christ makes us overcomers. It is not merely that you will overcome, you are already overcoming -- you are an overcomer, if you trust Him as Savior (rather than mere chance-giver).

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Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?( he who overcomes the world is he who believes Jesus is the Son of God)

I take believes here to imply that one trusts in this, not merely a factual belief, such as demons have.
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This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.( by water ,baptized, by blood crucified ,And the holy spirit bears witness)

The text does not say baptized. I would consider that it means the natural birth as in John 3 (water of birth). Take a look & see if you agree that:
one of John's purposes in writing is to oppose Docetism, the theory that the Lord Jesus had no real body -- the POV (Docetism) that Christ just appeared to be a man, a heresy that John contends with. He speaks of the necessity of confessing that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

----------------------
For there are three that bear record (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.) green not in original manuscripts.
the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. (we must agree with this also)

I think you are quoting the famous forged Trinity verse inserted very late, like time of Erasmus) into 1 John and found in the KJV. The text isn't saying that we must agree, though indeed we must agree with whatever God's Word says.
-----------------------------

So far it is all clear but what of the commandments? one command is.. loving the children of God

Very important indeed that we love fervently and not play theological tiddywinks.

NewB, again I commend you for your attention to the Word.

Atwood · Jul 13, 2014

Re: Continue in Willful Sin?

Alligator said:

How can the ground of one's faith be off the subject? Believers in Christ (as SAvior, not as chance-giver) have eternal security based on the atonement.

Now you are out of luck, Alligator, by your theory. If the Lord Jesus did not die for sins that were future, then He did not die for you and did not pay for your sins, for they were all future when He died!

But Heb 10 says:
"we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
"he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever,"
His sacrifice covers all sins forever.
"by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified."
That means eternal security. The believers have been set apart as special to God (sanctified), and they are perfected forever.

Since the word says
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins," there is a limit to the sin of the believer.

Now Alligator, are you continuing in willful sin by rejecting Christ as Savior and reducing him to chance-giver, insisting on works salvation like water baptism despite abundant exposure to the truth that salvation is not of works lest anyone should boast? Or are you blind with a hard heart?

Read Hebrews 10 completely with a mind open to the conviction of the Spirit. But better, focus on direct statements of scripture about God's promises of eternal life and the security of the one who trusts Christ as Savior. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish." And if a passage does not say "lose salvation," (or equivalent terms) do not twist it to mean that. There is the fact of apostasy, explained by Heb 6:9 and 1 John 2, which apostasy proves they were never part of the Body of Christ. And there is chastisement of God's people which keeps them saved and proves that they were saved. And chastisement can be severe, but it is no loss of salvation.

Heb 10:

For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh. Else would they not have ceased to be offered? because the worshippers, having been once cleansed, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance made of sins year by year. For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith,
Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not,
But a body didst thou prepare for me;
In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hadst no pleasure:
Then said I, Lo, I am come
(In the roll of the book it is written of me)
To do thy will, O God.

Saying above, Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein (the which are offered according to the law), then hath he said, Lo, I am come to do thy will. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God; henceforth expecting till his enemies be made the footstool of his feet. For
by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,
This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days, saith the Lord:
I will put my laws on their heart,
And upon their mind also will I write them;
then saith he,
And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

At the end of Heb is an explanatory verse:

But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

To anyone reading this, if you have been unwilling to trust Christ as Savior, and have dismissed Him as a mere chance-giver, now is the day of salvation. Trust Him now as Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Atwood · Jul 13, 2014

Hoffco said:

Do not attempt to do the work of satan in deceiving persons by pulling out of context a verse or two from Romans chapters 1-3 where the unsaved, Gentile & Jew are brought under condemnation for sin in most graphic terms. All have sinned & come short, the wages of sin is death, there is none who does good, no not one. There is the principle of judgment that God will justify a man who does good works, but the point is that there are none who do good works. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. There are no "people of good works" who get eternal life for that.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The book of Galatians in fact blows out of the water those who want righteousness by good works instead of by faith. Read the book. As many as are of the works of the law are under a curse. The curse comes because you fail to do everything written in the law.

Have some Romans:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.

And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful: who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.

Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things. And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things. And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek: for there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: . . .

But if thou bearest the name of a Jew, and restest upon the law, and gloriest in God, and knowest his will, and approvest the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them that are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having in the law the form of knowledge and of the truth; thou therefore that teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? . . .

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit:
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Atwood · Jul 13, 2014

Proof of Eternal Security in Rom 8: Memorize It

If you are not convinced that the Lord Jesus is really the Savior, but rather a mere chance-giver, so you deny Eternal Security,
see if you can memorize Romans 8 and still deny ES.

I post highlights below:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

. . .
The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward. For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. . . .

And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.

For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Cassian · Jul 13, 2014

Butch5 said:

Amazing isn't it, and has been known to be false for 500 years already.

newbirth · Jul 13, 2014

Re: The Topic is Eternal Security

Atwood said:

newbirth said:

At the momentI am reading 1 John 5

thanks for your response but it is getting a bit complicated

I do trust Him but here you quote a piece from James which brings to my mind, faith without works is dead . it says demons believe and tremble so they know it is a fact and they tremble with fear. I trust him, shouldn't there be something that I am required to do to show that I trust him?

I am praying God will help me to seek first his kingdom

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this i purpose to do

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My understanding is love encompass all commands so if we love we will not disobey any command. Still I cannot view any of God's commandment as inferior.
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here is where it gets confusing ..I am an overcomer because I am born of God, but the scripture says...But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. I have to be sure because this text gives the understanding that some will not endure to the end. If I do as you say do i still have to endure or is it all taken care of?

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This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.( by water ,baptized, by blood crucified ,And the holy spirit bears witness)

the text does not say natural birth either I can argue the theory of water baptism not being essential
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not wanting to make any new doctrine all I alluding to was spirit baptism ,water baptism and sprinkling of the blood.
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So far it is all clear but what of the commandments? one command is.. loving the children of God

Very important indeed that we love fervently and not play theological tiddywinks.

NewB, again I commend you for your attention to the Word.

Thanks again for your response...

Atwood · Jul 13, 2014

Cassian said:

It has never been shown false. It was believed by those who accepted the gospel in NT times, though there were those who preached a false gospel, accursed (Gal 1). Eternal security also was believed in the days of the so-called "Church fathers," ever denied by some; for the self-righteous who must be saved by their own efforts always exist.

But the Christian has a loving Savior who died for Him on the cross and paid for our sins. We can trust Him as Savior, not as mere "chance-giver."

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

Unbreakable golden chain of Rom 8:

foreknew>foreordained>called>justified>glorified.

We are justified by faith. And everyone justified ends up glorified! And the reason is that

He saves His people from their sins.

Anyone who reads this and has down-graded the Savior to a "chance-giver," needs to repent & trust Him as the Savior which He in fact is.

Butch5 · Jul 13, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Atwood said:

Good Morning Butch,

The doctrine is abundantly taught in scripture. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

He who began a good work in you will complete it.

Jesus Christ is the author & perfecter of our faith.

No condemnation.

We have an inheritance incorrruptible & undefiled reserved in Heaven, guarded by the power of God.

foreknew>foreordained>called>justified>glorified (Rom 8)

Nothing can separate the believer from the special love of God which is in Christ Jesus.

The Overcomer (= believer) will not be blotted out of the book of Life.
(& much etc.)
------------------------

CHURCH HISTORY

Doctrine comes from God's word, not human tradition. But for the sake of argument you claim no ES before 1500's, yet it is not only in Scripture (2000 yrs ago) but also testified to by Church Fathers. First there were many who believed in universalism, which is an extreme form of ES. I have posted a long post on that.

Instead of pontificating without proof, Butch, start by checking a standard Early Christian Doctrines text like that of J.N.D. Kelly, HarperCollins Publishers.

Now I would ask you Butch, if Origen, Augustine, Jerome, Ambrose, Hilary, and Ambrosiaster all lived after 1500???

Here is an internet quote which starts with Augustine's testimony as to the existence of the ES doctrine:

Augustine wrote about the large variety of views of salvation that existed in his day, including some that involved some form of eternal security:

"I must now, I see, enter the lists of amicable controversy with those tender-hearted Christians who decline to believe that any, . . . of those whom the . . . Judge may pronounce worthy . . . hell, shall suffer eternally, and who suppose that they shall be delivered after a fixed term of punishment . . . In respect of this matter, Origen . . . believed that even the devil himself and his angels . . . should be delivered from their torment, . . . . But the Church, not without reason, condemned him for this and other errors...

There are others, . . . who, . . . attribute to God a still greater compassion towards men. . . . when the judgment comes, mercy will prevail. . . .

So, too, there are others who promise this deliverance from eternal punishment, not, indeed, to all men, but only to those who have been washed in Christian baptism, and who become partakers of the body of Christ, no matter how they have lived, or what heresy or impiety they have fallen into. They ground this opinion on the saying of Jesus, 'This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that if any man eat thereof, he shall not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If a man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever.' Therefore, say they, it follows that these persons must be delivered from death eternal, and at one time or other be introduced to everlasting life.

There are others still who make this promise not even to all who have received the sacraments of the baptism of Christ and of His body, but only to the Catholics, however badly they have lived. For these . . . being incorporated in His body, as the apostle says, 'We, being many, are one bread, one body;' so that, though they have afterwards lapsed into some heresy, or even into heathenism and idolatry, yet by virtue of this one thing, that they have received the baptism of Christ, and eaten the body of Christ, in the body of Christ, that is to say, in the catholic Church, they shall not die eternally, but at one time or other obtain eternal life; and all that wickedness of theirs shall not avail to make their punishment eternal, but only proportionately long and severe....

But, say they [others], the catholic Christians have Christ for a foundation, and they have not fallen away from union with Him, no matter how depraved a life they have built on this foundation, as wood, hay, stubble; and accordingly the well-directed faith by which Christ is their foundation will suffice to deliver them some time from the continuance of that fire, though it be with loss, since those things they have built on it shall be burned." (The City Of God, 21:17-20, 21:22, 21:26)

Some other examples:

"Saint Jerome, though an enemy of Origen, was, when it came to salvation, more of an Origenist than Ambrose. He believed that all sinners, all mortal beings, with the exception of Satan, atheists, and the ungodly, would be saved: 'Just as we believe that the torments of the Devil, of all the deniers of God, of the ungodly who have said in their hearts, 'there is no God,' will be eternal, so too do we believe that the judgment of Christian sinners, whose works will be tried and purged in fire will be moderate and mixed with clemency.' Furthermore, 'He who with all his spirit has placed his faith in Christ, even if he die in sin, shall by his faith live forever.'" (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth Of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 61)

"Jerome develops the same distinction, stating that, while the Devil and the impious who have denied God will be tortured without remission, those who have trusted in Christ, even if they have sinned and fallen away, will eventually be saved. Much the same teaching appears in
Ambrose, developed in greater detail." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 484)

"Like Hilary and Ambrose,
Ambrosiaster distinguishes three categories: the saints and the righteous, who will go directly to heaven at the time of the resurrection; the ungodly, apostates, infidels, and atheists, who will go directly into the fiery torments of Hell; and the ordinary Christians, who, though sinners, will first pay their debt and for a time be purified by fire but then go to Paradise because they had the faith. Commenting on Paul, Ambrosiaster writes:

'He [Paul] said: 'yet so as by fire,' because this salvation exists not without pain; for he did not say, 'he shall be saved by fire,' but when he says, 'yet so as by fire,' he wants to show that this salvation is to come, but that he must suffer the pains of fire; so that, purged by fire, he may be saved and not, like the infidels [perfidi], tormented forever by eternal fire; if for a portion of his works he has some value, it is because he believed in Christ.'" (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth Of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 61)

"we find Ambrosiaster teaching that, while the really wicked, 'will be tormented with everlasting punishment', the chastisement of Christian sinners will be of a temporary duration." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 484)

Hi Atwood,

Not one of the passages you posted says a person can't lose their salvation, you've simply inferred that from the passages that you posted. Regarding the church quotes, their quotes that doesn't mean it was accepted church doctrine. The orthodox church did not accept OSAS, and the earliest writers fought against it.

Additionally, you have the problem of English translations which are not always accurate to the original languages. Then there is the issue of metaphors, parables, allegories, and other figures of speech. Then add to that the fact that many Christians simply proof text passages out of context and it's no wonder there is confusion. The bottom line is that there is not a single passage of Scripture that says a person cannot lose salvation, yet we see in the Scriptures that some people do lose it.

Butch5 · Jul 13, 2014

Cassian said:

It is. That people will fight so vehemently for a doctrine that is not stated in Scriptures is just as amazing.

Atwood · Jul 13, 2014

Re: The Topic is Eternal Security

newbirth said:

Atwood said:

NewB, Our answers are getting lost in a maze. LOL

As disciples once saved, we are obliged to present ourselves to God a living sacrifice. We have been recreated to be a producer of good works which must follow salvation. Eph 2 is clear on that.

James is a bit complicated to figure out, as it looks like James has an imaginary opponent which whom he argues. And we don't want to quote the opponent as correct (like in Job, Job argues with 3 friends who dish out a lot of nonsense).

I thought I proved to you that 1 commandment was the greatest, then a 2nd, both of which are superior to others. For example, it was against the law to eat show bread in OT times; the show bread at the Tabernacle was sacred & only priests could eat. Yet the Lord approved trumping that law with "love your neighbor as self." David was starving to death and had to have food, but all that was available was show bread. So the priest gave David show bread to eat. This illustrates how Bible ethics & morality is not theological tiddlywinks, but loving God & neighbor.

Actually the concept that there is a hierarchy of commands is very important. Love God & neighbor trump lesser commands. Otherwise we shall be legalists. I realize this is hard to believe, but if we (as Christians) love Him & neighbor, we have done it all. What about faith? Love believes all things! We are to be so in love with Him that we trust Him completely. I am convinced that when one has a moral quandary: Shall I do this or that, one needs to stop & ask oneself, What does this question have to do with loving God & neighbor? If nothing, then I must be plinking theological tiddlywinks.

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.

Yes, this verse seems obscure & needs study. It cannot be a proof text for baptism, as the term doesn't occur & baptism is not a necessary interpretation. Taking 1 John as having one purpose (if not the main one) to rebuts Docetism, this verse makes sense as speaking of Christ's natural birth in water (as I also take it in John 3).

Atwood · Jul 13, 2014

Butch5 said:

What is amazing is the hard heart that insists in self-righteousness on salvation by works and denies this truth:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Can you really read Rom 8 & not be convicted of eternal security?

Here is scripture to put in your pipe & smoke:

Jehovah redeemeth the soul of his servants;
And none of them that take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

Col 3
If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth. For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with him be manifested in glory.

2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

In II Thess. 3:3 “But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from the evil one.”

In II Tim. 1:12 “For I know Him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard that which I have committed unto Him against that day.”

4:18 of the same Epistle he glories that the Lord will deliver him from every evil work & will save him to His heavenly kingdom.

… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Ps 138

"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Ephesians 1:1-23
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus
Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Butch5 · Jul 13, 2014

Atwood said:

What is amazing is the hard heart that insists in self-righteousness on salvation by works and denies this truth:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Can you really read Rom 8 & not be convicted of eternal security?

Here is scripture to put in your pipe & smoke:

Jehovah redeemeth the soul of his servants;
And none of them that take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

Col 3
If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth. For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with him be manifested in glory.

2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

In II Thess. 3:3 “But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from the evil one.”

In II Tim. 1:12 “For I know Him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard that which I have committed unto Him against that day.”

4:18 of the same Epistle he glories that the Lord will deliver him from every evil work & will save him to His heavenly kingdom.

… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Ps 138

"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Ephesians 1:1-23
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus
Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Can you point out which one says a person cannot lose their salvation? You can post the whole Bible if you like, however, all you have presented are inferences.

An inference is a conclusion that is drawn from a set of facts or statements. However, just because one draws an inference it doesn't mean that inference is correct. I can draw an inference based on two fact, suppose I look out of the window and see that it is cloudy and the grass is wet. I can infer from this that it has rained. That inference may be correct or it may not be. It could have rained, however, it is also possible that the sprinkler system turned on and watered the grass. So, if I don't know that the sprinkler turned on my inference about it having rained may very well be wrong.

We have the same situation with these passages are being pulled from their context and used to say something that passages are not addressing. This is the problem with proof texting and forming doctrines based on inferences.

So, rather than proof texting 30 or 40 passages of Scripture can you show me where Jesus or any one of the apostles sets out and begins to teach that a believer cannot lose their salvation. You see, if this is a doctrine in the church we should find somewhere in the Scriptures were this doctrine first began to be taught. If you could go to that place and exegete the passage showing this teaching I'd really appreciate it.

Atwood · Jul 13, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Augustine wrote about the large variety of views of salvation that existed in his day, including some that involved some form of eternal security:

"I must now, I see, enter the lists of amicable controversy with those tender-hearted Christianswho decline to believe that any, . . . of those whom the . . . Judge may pronounce worthy . . . hell, shall suffer eternally, and who suppose that they shall be delivered after a fixed term of punishment . . . In respect of this matter, Origen . . . believed that even the devil himself and his angels . . . should be delivered from their torment, . . . . But the Church, not without reason, condemned him for this and other errors...

There are others, . . . who, . . . attribute to God a still greater compassion towards men. . . . when the judgment comes, mercy will prevail. . . .

So, too, there are others who promise this deliverance from eternal punishment, not, indeed, to all men, but only to those who have been washed in Christian baptism, and who become partakers of the body of Christ, no matter how they have lived, or what heresy or impiety they have fallen into. They ground this opinion on the saying of Jesus, 'This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that if any man eat thereof, he shall not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If a man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever.' Therefore, say they, it follows that these persons must be delivered from death eternal, and at one time or other be introduced to everlasting life.

There are others still who make this promise not even to all who have received the sacraments of the baptism of Christ and of His body, but only to the Catholics,however badly they have lived. For these . . . being incorporated in His body, as the apostle says, 'We, being many, are one bread, one body;' so that, though they have afterwards lapsed into some heresy, or even into heathenism and idolatry, yet by virtue of this one thing, that they have received the baptism of Christ, and eaten the body of Christ, in the body of Christ, that is to say, in the catholic Church, they shall not die eternally, but at one time or other obtain eternal life; and all that wickedness of theirs shall not avail to make their punishment eternal, but only proportionately long and severe....

But, say they [others], the catholic Christians have Christ for a foundation, and they have not fallen away from union with Him, no matter how depraved a life they have built on this foundation, as wood, hay, stubble; and accordingly the well-directed faith by whichChrist is their foundation will suffice to deliver them some time from the continuance of that fire, though it be with loss, since those things they have built on it shall be burned." (The City Of God, 21:17-20, 21:22, 21:26)

Some other examples:

"Saint Jerome, though an enemy of Origen, was, when it came to salvation, more of an Origenist than Ambrose. He believed that all sinners, all mortal beings, with the exception of Satan, atheists, and the ungodly, would be saved: 'Just as we believe that the torments of the Devil, of all the deniers of God, of the ungodly who have said in their hearts, 'there is no God,' will be eternal, so too do we believe that the judgment of Christian sinners, whose works will be tried and purged in fire will be moderate and mixed with clemency.' Furthermore, 'He who with all his spirit has placed his faith in Christ, even if he die in sin, shall by his faith live forever.'" (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth Of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 61)

"Jerome develops the same distinction, stating that, while the Devil and the impious who have denied God will be tortured without remission, those who have trusted in Christ, even if they have sinned and fallen away, will eventually be saved. Much the same teaching appears in
Ambrose, developed in greater detail." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 484)

"Like Hilary and Ambrose,
Ambrosiaster distinguishes three categories: the saints and the righteous, who will go directly to heaven at the time of the resurrection; the ungodly, apostates, infidels, and atheists, who will go directly into the fiery torments of Hell; and the ordinary Christians, who, though sinners, will first pay their debt and for a time be purified by fire but then go to Paradise because they had the faith. Commenting on Paul, Ambrosiaster writes:

'He [Paul] said: 'yet so as by fire,' because this salvation exists not without pain; for he did not say, 'he shall be saved by fire,' but when he says, 'yet so as by fire,' he wants to show that this salvation is to come, but that he must suffer the pains of fire; so that, purged by fire, he may be saved and not, like the infidels [perfidi], tormented forever by eternal fire; if for a portion of his works he has some value, it is because he believed in Christ.'" (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth Of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 61)

"we find Ambrosiaster teaching that, while the really wicked, 'will be tormented with everlasting punishment',the chastisement of Christian sinners will be of a temporary duration." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 484)

Butch5 said:

What a false denial of the plain statement of scripture!
"I give them eternal life & they shall never perish."
foreknew-foreordained-called-justified-glorified.
This is an unbreakable chain. & nothing can separate the Christian from the special love in Christ Jesus.
He who began a good work in you will complete it, and much more.

The evidence is there Butch on the Church Fathers. They show that in their times Eternal Security was a doctrine in existence.

Now what you are doing is called moving the goal post Butch. Your contention was that Eternal Security did not exist until 500 years ago. What proves it was accepted Church Doctrine is that it is in the NT taught most explicitly. Your denomination is not the Church, Butch. No Eastern or Western, Northern or Southern denomination is the Church.

If you would be in the Church, I recommend that you trust Christ as Savior, & repent of writing Him off as a chance giver.

The earliest writers did not fight against Eternal Security taught it & did not fight vs it at all: John, Paul, Peter.

Butch, why do you think that you can just say things and have it believed. What you say is nonsense, & I have plastered the forum with scripture. I think your mind is closed because you have made the human tradition of your denomination superior to the Word of God. Many passages teach eternal security. And you cannot quote me even one verse in the Bible where the words "salvation" and "lose" are even in the same verse. There is no such scripture.

1 Peter 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto
an inheritance
incorruptible, and
undefiled, and
that fadeth not away,
reserved in heaven for you,
who by the power of God are guarded
through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jesus Christ is the author & pefecter of our faith; he saves to the uttermost.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

He who began a good work in you will complete it.

Atwood · Jul 13, 2014

Butch5 said:

Nonsense. I have posted to you a host of evidence. You look at it and let the Spirit convict you of the truth.

Pasa graphē theopneustos. It is all God's word. But if you want Christ, John, Peter, & Paul, I quoted them already. Read it.

Actually you need a proof text where the doctrine that a person who is saved is in fact saved began to be denied!

Butch, are you willing to accept my exegesis if it conflicts with your denomination? Are you even willing to believe God's Word if it conflicts with your denominational human tradition? Look at the verses for yourself. When it began is not important, but the fact that God teaches it is.

The doctrine is found in the Psalms. Ps 23 has David's name on its top, David the adulterer & murderer of the husband:

"Surely goodness & mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,
And I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever."

Surely . . . all the days . . . forever.

So you have enough evidence. Accept Christ as your Savior, or at your peril continue to write Him off as a mere "chance-giver."

Thou shalt all His name Jesus,
for he will save His people from their sins.

(no ifs, ands, or maybes).

The Overcomer is guaranteed not to have His name blotted out of the book of Life. And we are told that the Overcomer is the believer.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and betheir God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
The proof is conclusive. Accept Christ as your Savior, or at your peril continue to write Him off as a mere "chance-giver."

Thou shalt all His name Jesus,
for he will save His people from their sins.

(no ifs, ands, or maybes).

newbirth · Jul 13, 2014

Re: The Topic is Eternal Security

Atwood said:

newbirth said:

I will take the time to search them out

I am very old school so I tend to back every statement with scripture it would be nice to pop in the actual verses that you refer to ..Eph tells us..
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9[/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
but in the very next verse it says...
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I agree good works must follow salvation. two questions 1) if no good works follow salvation are we still saved? 2) if good works follow for a while then stops are we still saved?

If the opponent is correct we must quote him as correct if he is wrong then he is wrong. I was stating the devils don't just believe they know, and they tremble . If we believe, an action is required to prove we believe.

If God principle applies here ...For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all....So in loving God and neighbour as self one has obeyed all the commands, but if one breaks the least of the commands one becomes guilty of all.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.How do we love God and neighbour as self, this does not happen by wishful thinking because it is practical and takes effort. How many times have we seen people in need and turned a blind eye? Do we have to be continually doing good works? If we stop doing good works will it have any effect on our salvation? We have to be very sure here because it is eternal life we are talking about.

.
I am not as skilled as you guys when it comes to that type of study .I may as well leave it up to you

as I said before I am not as skilled as you guys you may need to pop in some verses .Also I am very practical ,so I try to put everything in actual working situation.

It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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