Baptism Essential to Salvation

[peacefulbeliever]

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, andwith fire:

Proper exegesis requires one to understand who is speaking, who is being spoken to and what is being said. So prove to me that the pronouns "you" refer to you.

By your "proper exegesis" none of the scripture is written to any of us because we are not the "you", "us", "we" directly in any scripture but we are the "you", "us", "we" indirectly - especially in the church epistles.

Who is the "you" here? Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee [you]; You must be born again.

Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, ad of the Holy Spirit:

By your "proper exegesis" you cannot even use the verses you have been using . . . . . So prove to me that the pronouns "you" refer to YOU.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not here to make doctrine I stand on the word of God you stand on the doctrine of man...We are saved by grace God does that through faith your part. Key phrase they got baptized if it was not necessary why do it???? to you it's a bath to us who believe it is obedience of faith...

No your not here to stand on the word. or anything else.

1. You claim people say things they have never said
2. You claim we say one should not be baptized. yet even though you have been asked to prove it. You can;t which proves your either blindness, or purposeful false witness againt others.
3. You were commanded to go to church, give to the poor. make disciples of others, and many other things. yet they will not save you. so your argument is in and of itself is flawed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No verse says circumcision is the OT type for NT baptism.

You're misreading Col 2:11,12 for it says nothing about the man doing the baptizing, it is talking about the person being baptized.

col 2: 11- 12 does

Col 2 : 12 says how we are circumcized by the hands of God. By being baptized into Christ.

It also says it is the work of God who raised him from the dead.

Next

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Finally I'm back to this one. I don't have a lot to add. I think we have pretty well beaten this to death. but I will have just a few thoughts.

Regardless of what word we use, I do not find any requirement for baptism in the Old Testament. Christ baptism represents the death burial and resurrection of Christ. See Romans 6:3–6. This is the baptism that should concern us.

Yes I agree with rom 6.

Where we disagree is who is the one doing the baptising in romand 6.

You think it is man baptising you in water (you are making a symbolic interpretation of romans 6)

I believe it is God himself literally placing us into the death and burial of Christ ( a literal interpretation)

I only state such, because you claimed I was taking a ymbolic interpretaion. when I just tried to show you that is not true, It is you who are taking a symbolic interpretation.

And you can not say no one was commanded in the OT. Again the word baptize is not a hebrew or OT term. It is a greek term (it is not even english) so your claiming it was never commanded is already flawed. Sorry my friend, All preists were commanded to be washed (baptised) it is the same ceremony.

Jesus performed baptism of the Holy Spirit on two occasions. On the day of Pentecost it was given to the apostles and also to the Cornelius householld. He has issued the great commission just prior to His death, and asked the apostle to go into the world and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the father the son and Holy Spirit. That is water baptism and that is what saves us today.

Yet John said we would all be baptized by Jesus. with the HS or fire. Not just apostles (there were not there at Johns Baptism) So you have a problem here.

 

[Hoffco]

Rom.6 is the Holy Spirit baptizing us into the Christ, into His death and resurrected life, ie. being born of the Holy Spirit. Our water baptism represents our Death to sin and new life in Christ. In our water baptism ,we are confessing that we have been saved, that we were baptised by the Spirit into Jesus death and resurrected life, That we are really changed persons, not that we have only received Jesus, but that we promised to LIVE for Jesus only. This confession is absolutely necessary for salvation, but being baptized in water is not necessary for salvation. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[SeaBass]

By your "proper exegesis" none of the scripture is written to any of us because we are not the "you", "us", "we" directly in any scripture but we are the "you", "us", "we" indirectly - especially in the church epistles.

Who is the "you" here? Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee [you]; You must be born again.

Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, ad of the Holy Spirit:

By your "proper exegesis" you cannot even use the verses you have been using . . . . . So prove to me that the pronouns "you" refer to YOU.

It cannot be told from the context of Mt 3:11 who the "you" is for John is using the pronouns "you" generically both times. One must look to the fulfillment of John's words to find out who the "you" is that will be baptized with the HS. The fulfillment can be found in Acts 1:1-5 where Jesus is speaking with His apostles, even references what John said in verse 5. So the "you" of Mt 3:11 that Christ will baptize with the HS is the apostles.

 

[SeaBass]

col 2: 11- 12 does

Col 2 : 12 says how we are circumcized by the hands of God. By being baptized into Christ.

It also says it is the work of God who raised him from the dead.

Next

No it does not for again, water baptism has been commanded to all men where OT circumcision was for 8 day old males only.

 

[SeaBass]

Rom.6 is the Holy Spirit baptizing us into the Christ, into His death and resurrected life, ie. being born of the Holy Spirit. Our water baptism represents our Death to sin and new life in Christ. In our water baptism ,we are confessing that we have been saved, that we were baptised by the Spirit into Jesus death and resurrected life, That we are really changed persons, not that we have only received Jesus, but that we promised to LIVE for Jesus only. This confession is absolutely necessary for salvation, but being baptized in water is not necessary for salvation. Love to all, Hoffco

Rom 6 is about water baptism:

verse 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

One is buried in a watery grave and then raised up form that watery grave. This water baptism was the form of doctrine they obeyed from the heart making them justified, Rom 6:17,18

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No it does not for again, water baptism has been commanded to all men where OT circumcision was for 8 day old males only.

wrong

Circumcision was for any male who wanted to be part of the covenant of Israel Study your bible.

Did you pastor rise Christ from the dead? then his baptism is useless. Paul proves this in col 2: 12

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Rom 6 is about water baptism:

verse 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

One is buried in a watery grave and then raised up form that watery grave. This water baptism was the form of doctrine they obeyed from the heart making them justified, Rom 6:17,18

wrong

rom 6 is about spirit baptism. It is about being literally baptized into the death and burial of Christ. No water in mentioned.

 

[SeaBass]

wrong

Circumcision was for any male who wanted to be part of the covenant of Israel Study your bible.

Did you pastor rise Christ from the dead? then his baptism is useless. Paul proves this in col 2: 12

Baptism is commanded for every one not just Jewish 8 day old males.

Col 2:11,12 does not mention the person doing the baptizing, it's about the person being baptized.

 

[SeaBass]

wrong

rom 6 is about spirit baptism. It is about being literally baptized into the death and burial of Christ. No water in mentioned.

No "spirit baptism" mentioned in Rom 6. The baptism of Rom 6 involves a burial from which one is raised up from. If it was "spirit baptism" then is buried in the spirit and then raised up from the spirit never maintaining the spirit he was supposedly buried in.

Rom 6:17 the water baptism of Rom 6 is that form of doctrine they obeyed from the heart. One can obey the command to be water baptized but no one can obey a command to be "spirit baptized" for that command does not exist.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No "spirit baptism" mentioned in Rom 6. The baptism of Rom 6 involves a burial from which one is raised up from. If it was "spirit baptism" then is buried in the spirit and then raised up from the spirit never maintaining the spirit he was supposedly buried in.

So God is not able to do those things?

Wow. No wonder you rely on man, Your God can not do those things.

My bible tells me all over God has raised me up.. My God is capable of doing those things. If your God is not. you need to find a new God

Rom 6:17 the water baptism of Rom 6 is that form of doctrine they obeyed from the heart. One can obey the command to be water baptized but no one can obey a command to be "spirit baptized" for that command does not exist.

Rom 6 is not about water baptism, it is about being united in the likeness of his death. so as paul says:

certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection

This proves it is not water baptism. the water baptism signifies being raise. In romans 6 the resurrection has not yet taken place. it is a yet future event, We were ony baptized into his DEATH AMD BURIAL. the baptism into his ressurection is a yet future event.

Next.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Baptism is commanded for every one not just Jewish 8 day old males.

Col 2:11,12 does not mention the person doing the baptizing, it's about the person being baptized.

Circumcision was commanded for everyone. Not just 8 day old males.

Again Paul said we were baptized by the working of God who raised him from the dead. So no argument you use works.


, [SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Unless your pastor raised christ from the dead. Your talking dead words. they are meaningless. period

 

[Alligator]

Yes I agree with rom 6.

Where we disagree is who is the one doing the baptising in romand 6.

You think it is man baptising you in water (you are making a symbolic interpretation of romans 6)

I believe it is God himself literally placing us into the death and burial of Christ ( a literal interpretation)

I only state such, because you claimed I was taking a ymbolic interpretaion. when I just tried to show you that is not true, It is you who are taking a symbolic interpretation.

And you can not say no one was commanded in the OT. Again the word baptize is not a hebrew or OT term. It is a greek term (it is not even english) so your claiming it was never commanded is already flawed. Sorry my friend, All preists were commanded to be washed (baptised) it is the same ceremony.



Yet John said we would all be baptized by Jesus. with the HS or fire. Not just apostles (there were not there at Johns Baptism) So you have a problem here.

Again, where is the evidence (scripture) that God Himself was the baptizer in Rom. Ch. 6? This scripture talks about being buried with Christ, which is exactly what baptism is.The eunuch was baptized in water, the Great Commission was baptism in water, There is nothing in the context to indicate this is a different baptism.

We we don't know who the "you" is that John spoke of. But look at the fulfillment of that prediction. On the day of Pentecost the HOLY SPIRIT was poured out on the ,apostles.

 

[SeaBass]

So God is not able to do those things?

Wow. No wonder you rely on man, Your God can not do those things.

My bible tells me all over God has raised me up.. My God is capable of doing those things. If your God is not. you need to find a new God



Rom 6 is not about water baptism, it is about being united in the likeness of his death. so as paul says:

certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection

This proves it is not water baptism. the water baptism signifies being raise. In romans 6 the resurrection has not yet taken place. it is a yet future event, We were ony baptized into his DEATH AMD BURIAL. the baptism into his ressurection is a yet future event.

Next.

Rom 6 is water baptism, a burial in water which one is raised up from, the baptism they obeyed from the heart. Christ's resurrection had already taken place by Rom 6 and this water baptism symbolizes that death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

 

[AdamTheWatchful]

This is one topic I haven't seen on this forum:

Is water baptism essential to salvation?

Does it matter how you are baptized? (Sprinkled or fully immersed)

Does it matter what is said when they baptize you? (Father, Son, Holy, In Jesus name, name of the Lord Jesus?)

It is the baptism of repentance which John gave (water) which I believe many already accepted and the Jews did know at the time! However Jesus baptises you in fire and with The Holy Spirit which is needed to continue your daily walk with Christ! Jesus is the only way to heaven and it is not through John nor Moses or Elijah that one could be saved but ONLY THROUGH THE LORD OF HOSTS: JESUS CHRIST!!!

We know the water of earth has no power to save in it, it is the River of Life which flows through the veins of The Anointed One Jesus Christ which can save you, and that is the Baptism which John spoke would come!

Nevertheless: DO REPENT, as John the Baptist taught- AMEN!

Indeed it is the Father the Son Jesus and the Holy spirit which are ONE and bear testimony in heaven which shall save you!



Jesus says he will not leave you 'COMFORTLESS' (greek- orphanos or orphan) and the comforter and giver of wisdom is the Holy spirit!

Therefore how can you say you are a Son of God if you are an orphan, without his Holy Spirit to teach guide and convict you???

YOU CANNOT!

There was only a short amount of time between when Jesus died and showed himself to the disciples and resurrected which the disciples did not have the Holy spirit and the time was solemn and very bitter when they knew not where Jesus was, yet so many I believe are still living in that confusing time, they are COMFORTLESS and thus have no right to speak on anything because they speak of their own spirit and flesh, still in sin and bitterness JUDGING AND always accusing as satan does today and similar to how Paul DID BEFORE HE WAS SAVED- killing his future brethren rather than acting in Holiness with the Holy Spirit!

The Holy Spirit baptism is necessary to salvation, otherwise you would have to follow the LAW which is JESUS WHOLEHEARTEDLY WITH NO FAIL (AND WE CANNOT DO SO IN OUR CURRENT FALLEN CONDITION) JUST LOOK AT HOW PRETTY MUCH ALL OF THE DISCIPLES WERE EITHER MYSTERIOUSLY ABSENT, HIDING OR DENIED JESUS WHEN JESUS WAS DELIVERED UP TO DEATH!!!

Thus it is necessary to have the Holy Spirit of GOD to be saved and continue in Holiness!!!

Glory be to the Lord God forever and ever!

 

[SeaBass]

Circumcision was commanded for everyone. Not just 8 day old males.

Show me where female Jews were circumcised.

Again Paul said we were baptized by the working of God who raised him from the dead. So no argument you use works.

Paul did not say we are baptized by the working of God. You're changing the passage.

Col 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

The water baptism here as in Rom 6 has a burial from which one is risen.

, [SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Unless your pastor raised christ from the dead. Your talking dead words. they are meaningless. period

The passage says nothing about the person doing the baptizing.

 

[newbirth]

No your not here to stand on the word. or anything else.

1. You claim people say things they have never said
2. You claim we say one should not be baptized. yet even though you have been asked to prove it. You can;t which proves your either blindness, or purposeful false witness againt others.
3. You were commanded to go to church, give to the poor. make disciples of others, and many other things. yet they will not save you. so your argument is in and of itself is flawed.

look who inherits the kingdom, those who work, think again bro. if your eye offends you pluck it out
[SUP]

31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Hoffco]

To limit the "you" of Mt.3:11 to the Apostles is very foolish. John is making a general statement to the whole crowd. And we are not to assume that all of them were baptized that day., we don't know, but we might assume that some were saved and were already baptized in the heart by the Spirit into Christ. but the official "fire" baptism might wait for pentecost. Love to all Hoffco