BEWARE the Lawkeepers

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L

Laodicea

Guest
The law is much more than just the 10 commandments.
For those under the law righteousness is determined by perfect obedience to it.
The law has the death penalty for even just one offence (James 2:10).

But Christ's commandments to us has 2 commandments.
1John 3:23
1: Believe on Jesus (thus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5)
2: Love one another.

Are these 2 laws different?
2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Heb 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Both these covenants cover issues such as stealing.
The old covenant demanded the death penalty for even just one offence. Righteousness was determined only if one kept the law perfectly.

But under the new covenant faith is counted for righteousness.
And under the new covenant Christians are not preaching condemnation under the old law. Instead we show the same love/grace to others as God showed to us. We forgive 7x70. And whilst a Christian's behavior improves, as we love one another (hence we do not steal, etc), in this imperfect physical world we do sometimes fail (or are you claiming to be perfect, Laodecia?). We do not profit by doing wrong as God disciplines us.

Note also how the Sabbath and dietary laws are not listed in Christ's commandments (1John 3:23).

So back to my questions.
I'm curious how you see the many Christians here who never keep the Saturday Sabbath?

Do you see Christians who do not have the works of the law that your doctrine demands, as "cripples"? Or do you see them as lost?
You have not answered my question. It looks like you are avoiding answering my question. So I will ask again, If the thief on the cross would have lived would he have kept the commandment "Thou Shalt not Kill'? A simple yes or no will do. I asked this question first, after you answer then I will answer your question.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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As to this deceptive teaching that one can continue to sin a known sin and still be righteous, John says:

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Only those who "doeth" righteousness are righteous.

1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin...

Unrighteousness = sin
righteousness = not sin.

Sin = breaking the law
not sin = keeping the law.

To do righteousness is to keep the law. Or do you not know that he was manifest to take away our sin?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
As to this deceptive teaching that one can continue to sin a known sin and still be righteous, John says:

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Only those who "doeth" righteousness are righteous.

1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin...

Unrighteousness = sin
righteousness = not sin.

Sin = breaking the law
not sin = keeping the law.

To do righteousness is to keep the law. Or do you not know that he was manifest to take away our sin?
if your going to quote John. maybe we need to see all of it.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]21[/SUP]I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
 
B

BradC

Guest
If you say yes it simply means that you agree the Law is still in effect. One is still under grace for that is the forgiveness for breaking the Law.

Sure, one of them is true, either we keep the Ten Commandments or we don't. Pretty easy question.




Can we obey them perfectly? No, we all sin, John makes that plain in chapters 1 and 2 of his first epistle. Can we obey them in our heart as Paul says?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Sure can.

Can't you commit to anything? I am committed to obeying God to the best of my ability and then relying on grace when I fall short.
Show one time in the NT scriptures where not keeping the Sabbath was considered sin, disobedience or breaking the law by Jesus Christ or by any of the apostles who walked with Him or by Paul himself. Show us in the NT scriptures where not keeping the Sabbath is a transgression of the law.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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if your going to quote John. maybe we need to see all of it.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]21[/SUP]I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
I simply assume people would actually go have a look for themselves. have you not only added a few verses and not all?

I gave what was intended.

Blessings.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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Show one time in the NT scriptures where not keeping the Sabbath was considered sin, disobedience or breaking the law by Jesus Christ or by any of the apostles who walked with Him or by Paul himself. Show us in the NT scriptures where not keeping the Sabbath is a transgression of the law.
That is a mute argument, Show us one place in all of scripture where the Sabbath is changed or we are told not to keep it.

however give Hebrews 4 a look.


Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

to know how we come short we should no how they came short.

Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard.

so they did not have faith, how did that manifest?

Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works;

notice entering into that rest is connected with the seventh day.

Heb 4:5 and in this place again, They shall not enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience,

well that is interesting is it not. God said they will not enter His rest, but they failed because of disobedience.

Now they disobeyed in may things but the author only brings out the 7th day Sabbath why?

Heb 4:7 he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before), To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day.

David said "today" long after Joshua took them into the promised land so thus proving that there is a rest still to be entered.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.

A rest remains, but notice the issue is do not disobey. The author shows that 7th day Sabbath disobedience effects eternal rest.

The author knew this because?

Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy of holies;
Heb 9:4 having a golden altar of incense, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was a golden pot holding the manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

Because the pot of manna was put in the most Holy indicating that it had to do with the the time Just before Jesus comes the second time. (I hope you understand the Sanctuary).

What then happened?

Deu 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which Jehovah thy God hath led thee these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble thee, to prove thee, to know what was in thy heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or not.
Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by everything that proceedeth out of the mouth of Jehovah doth man live.

God tested them for 40 years to humble them to see what was in their hearts. that they should live be every word (10 commandments spoken by Gods own mouth) not by bread alone.

what did the bread teach?

Exo 16:4 Then said Jehovah unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or not.
Exo 16:5 And it shall come to pass on the sixth day, that they shall prepare that which they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

and how long did God prove them with the manna?

Exo 16:32 And Moses said, This is the thing which Jehovah hath commanded, Let an omerful of it be kept throughout your generations, that they may see the bread wherewith I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt.
Exo 16:33 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omerful of manna therein, and lay it up before Jehovah, to be kept throughout your generations.
Exo 16:34 As Jehovah commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept.
Exo 16:35 And the children of Israel did eat the manna forty years, until they came to a land inhabited; they did eat the manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan.

40 years.

this is the issue being spoken of in Hebrews:

Heb 3:16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses?
Heb 3:17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
Heb 3:19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

that's the short version.
 
B

BradC

Guest
It is not a 'moot' point. You always like to refer to 'keeping the law' but you seldom refer to 'breaking the law'. If you are not keeping the law then you are breaking the law. Sin is the transgression of 'breaking' the law by not 'keeping' it. If we do not keep the law of the Sabbath then we are breaking the law and surely our Lord would not want us to break the law, for that would be sin and Christ came not to be a minister of sin. But if we no longer are obligated to be under the law because Christ has put away our sin and is the end of the law to everyone who believes, then we are under grace to walk in the Spirit and by doing so we fulfill the law instead of trying to keep it. We keep the commandments by waking in the Spirit of grace and truth and we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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It is not a 'moot' point. You always like to refer to 'keeping the law' but you seldom refer to 'breaking the law'. If you are not keeping the law then you are breaking the law. Sin is the transgression of 'breaking' the law by not 'keeping' it. If we do not keep the law of the Sabbath then we are breaking the law and surely our Lord would not want us to break the law, for that would be sin and Christ came not to be a minister of sin. But if we no longer are obligated to be under the law because Christ has put away our sin and is the end of the law to everyone who believes, then we are under grace to walk in the Spirit and by doing so we fulfill the law instead of trying to keep it. We keep the commandments by waking in the Spirit of grace and truth and we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Actually we often refer to breaking the law as sin.

You said "then we are under grace to walk in the Spirit and by doing so we fulfill the law instead of trying to keep it. We keep the commandments by waking in the Spirit of grace and truth and we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

amen to that, and if the law be fulfilled in us through the Spirit then we will be keeping the law by faith in Jesus and His powerful Grace.

My problem is with this attitude that some have where they think they can sin and not be sinners.

If you sin you are a slave to sin. John 8:34.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Actually we often refer to breaking the law as sin.

You said "then we are under grace to walk in the Spirit and by doing so we fulfill the law instead of trying to keep it. We keep the commandments by waking in the Spirit of grace and truth and we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

amen to that, and if the law be fulfilled in us through the Spirit then we will be keeping the law by faith in Jesus and His powerful Grace.

My problem is with this attitude that some have where they think they can sin and not be sinners.

If you sin you are a slave to sin. John 8:34.
Jesus said that if you look at a women with lust you have sinned, but that is not against the law.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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Jesus said that if you look at a women with lust you have sinned, but that is not against the law.
It is against the law, That is what Jesus was saying the law goes deeper than actions, it goes to the very thoughts. but Gods Grace changes even our thoughts.

Pro 16:3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.

2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Praise God.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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wow you error rate is 100%

yes the commanments WERE given to abraham

they were actually given to aam an eve says the bible or they coul not have sinned

you really ought to rea your Bible more

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice,
and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
You do realize the obvious here, don't you? When these verses say the Abraham listened to God's commandments, It is not talking about the Law given to the Israelites through Moses.

It is talking about the fact that Abraham listened to what God had told him (specifically Abram/Abraham) to do. The Law (as given to Moses and the Israelites) was not given until Moses! And yes, there was a foreshadowing of the Sabbath at creation, but there was also foreshadowing of Jesus Christ - but they did not understand who Jesus was until He had risen.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Clearly only the act was considered sin.

Mat. 5

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
Clearly only the act was considered sin.

Mat. 5

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
That is the same thinking of the Pharisees.

Matthew 23:25-28 KJV
(25) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
(26) Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
(27) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
(28) Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.


They thought as long as they don't do the outward act it was ok. The gospel is to work inside out, not just outward only.
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
One of Satan's most successful deceptions
is to lead men to claim to be sanctified,
while at the same time they are living
in disobedience to God's commandments.

These are described by Jesus as those who will say,
"Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works"?

Yes, those who claim to be sanctified
have a great deal to say about being saved
by the blood of Jesus;

but their sanctification is not through the truth as it is in Jesus.

While claiming to believe in him,
and apparently doing wonderful works in his name,
they ignore his Father's law,
and serve as agents of the great adversary of souls
to carry forward the work which he begun in Eden,

that of making plausible excuses
for not obeying God implicitly.

Their work of leading men to dishonor God
by ignoring his law,
will one day be unfolded before them
with its true results.

The conditions of eternal life are made so plain
in God's word that none need err,
unless they choose error
rather than truth
because their unsanctified souls
love the darkness
rather than the light.

The lawyer who came to Christ with the question,
"Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
thought to catch Christ;
but Jesus laid the burden back upon the lawyer.

"What is written in the law?
how readest thou?

And he answering said,
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul,
and with all thy strength,
and with all thy mind;
and thy neighbor as thyself."

Then said Christ, "Thou has answered right;
this do, and thou shalt live."

These words meet the individual cases of all.
Are we willing to comply
with the conditions?

Will we obey God and keep his commandments?

Will we be doers of the word and not hearers only?

God's law is as immutable
and unchangeable as his character.

Whatever men may say or do to make it void,
does not change its claims,
or release them from their obligation to obey.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,726
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Not a word of praise to the One who kept the law in their stead,
Instead they insist that 'they' can keep the law; "Thanks Jesus, but no thanks" is their motto.
"Though my righteousness is as filthy rags in your sight O Lord, they are clean as snow in my own sight", says Mr.I-KnowI-Can.
Never resting, never rejoicing too busy trying to be good enough, until on that Day they stand before the Judge of all...
their plea? I did, I tried, I didn't, I taught, I fed, I clothed, I kept, I did ALL these wonderful works, I, I, I, I, I, I,.

But what does Scripture say?

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(Gal 2:20-21)

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(Gal 3:11)

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
(Luk 18:13-14)

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
(1Co 1:30-31)

BEWARE of those that exalt their works of the law over the Works of Christ Jesus.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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If we loved the Lord, and in scripture we find that the Lord spoke often about keeping the Sabbath, why, when this is for our benefit, are we grossing and complaining about it? God created us, God sent His son to die for us, I should think that if God says to spend a day as He explains how we are to spend it, that it would be the least we could do.

Instead we are trying to shoot each other down with accusations about it, like little kids. Not like Christians. Why can't we just shut up and do like we are told? It isn't that hard, and a day devoted to saying I just give up my striving, I know You are in control sounds like a pretty good deal to me. God didn't ask for seven days of this, just one single day.

Reading some of these posts complaining about it sounds to me like ungrateful brats telling their Father He is wrong and abusing them for giving them a present.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
You might try not taking scripture out of context, which is the mark of the workers of iniquity:[SUP]19 [/SUP]“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

They are to go listen to the law of Moses being preached in every city. If there were not to keep the law why were they being sent to listen to the law? What sense does that make?

I wonder how Paul, a Torah Keeping Jew, is going to react in the kingdom when he realizes his words and letters intended to help others live like a better Jew were twisted and turned into an excuse to commit iniquity. I look forward to sitting at his feet and telling him how his letters encouraged me to keep the law, and not let others judge me for doing so. I wonder how he will react to you, specifically, telling others that Paul wanted them to sin and commit iniquity, because all of the law is done away with. I wonder if he'll laugh, or cry?

Here's some material that might help you understand Paul and the world he lived in a little better: The Pauline Paradox Series - Part 1 | 119 Ministries
What a gem! Thank you sister for reflecting His light.:)
 
K

Karraster

Guest
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

God said that He made human beings in His “image” and “likeness.”
“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is

King David also understood this a thousand years earlier when he wrote: “As for me, I will behold Your face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Your likeness”

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Do you notice a theme here? Any feedback would be appreciated in explaining "foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests". Because the way I see it is that foxes are in burrows to reproduce, as birds use nests for the same purpose ..to produce a "likeness" of themselves, they don't just hang out there daily, as we tend to do with homes.

He goes on to say He has no place to lay His head...I think He's saying it is not yet time for Him to gather His children. any thoughts would be appreciated.

Point being, My understanding is He forgives the repentant, and then we go on to become more and more like Him. He is the author and finisher, but until that time we breath our last our journey must be transformative, ever changing into His image.

Also consider, has any man made government worked in harmony? There must be cause and effect in the natural, and only the government of God is perfect and everlasting.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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Luke 13
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Just at that time some Pharisees approached, saying to Him, “Go away, leave here, for Herod wants to kill You.” [SUP]32 [/SUP]And He said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.’

Not sure what the application is exactly, but this is an interesting verse anyway.