Baptism Essential to Salvation

[homwardbound]

I keep saying over and over we are saved by grace, through faith......it is not a one off thing where you do one thing after you are saved...it is the obedience of faith. God has saved you cleaned you and placed you in Christ . He gave you faith to stay in Christ. Why do you guys make this so hard?
1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

So then each work out their own salvation and then see that next verse after that one, do you know of which one I am talking about?

 

[homwardbound]

NOT obeying God's commands is sin/disobedience/unrighteousness > the reason men are lost.

So the command to be water baptized makes baptism essential to salvation if for no other reason.

and two plus two = five or six

 

[homwardbound]

I have been born again per Jn 3:5 when I was water baptized many, many, years ago.

Go man go, it is so great to hear and see that God gave you what you needed and not others,
so is god's gift free or conditional? And since you state conditional, which Church is the true Church for me, per you?

 

[newbirth]

So then each work out their own salvation and then see that next verse after that one, do you know of which one I am talking about?

How could I know what you are talking about? Do you think anyone can make sense of this..."then see that next verse after that one "? I am wondering now if you have any clue what my post means.

 

[newbirth]

No problem newbirth, maybe time to mature, scripture is the below scripture trute or not, whether one sins or not, are we by God still forgiven or not?

Romans 3:25 [Full Chapter]
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
1 John 2 [Full Chapter]
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. [ Love and Hatred for Fellow Believers ] We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. ...

Commandsment to believe and trust God only as Christ did

1 John 2:12New International Version (NIV)

Reasons for Writing

[SUP]12 [/SUP]I am writing to you, dear children,
because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.

The above is stated in past tense, is it not?

And i do not promote to take this for granted and sin all the more, rather to trust God to teach us to stop by faith in God's finished work for us in appreciation and response in love back

And i do not promote to take this for granted and sin all the more,

So you really think if you sin it is already forgiven?

The scripture says your past sins have been forgiven ....God does not forgive sin that we don't have . You have no scripture to prove that. If that were so then there would be no need for this scripture...
1 John 2 [Full Chapter]
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

or this...
Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

 

[newbirth]

Last time: In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

The Greek rule regarding agreement between verbs and pronouns requires that the remission of sins be connected with repentance, not with baptism.

The fundamental question is this - to which verb, the verb "repent," or the verb "be baptized," does the prepositional phrase "for the remission of your sins" refer to or connect? That is the $64, 000 question.

First, lets talk about the ANTECEDENT OF humon or the pronoun "your" in English. What is the antecedent of this pronoun? In order to answer this, we must first note that there are two main clauses preceding the prepositional phrase.

Though both leading clauses are imperatives, they are not identical, for the first clause, "repent ye" (including both verb and pronoun), is second person plural, while the second clause, "each one of you be baptized" (including both verb and pronoun), is third person singular. Thus, there is a change of both person and number between the verbs and pronouns in these two clauses.

In the prepositional phrase, "for the remission or YOUR sins," the pronoun “your” is second person plural. The effect of this change from second person plural to third person singular, and then back again to second person plural, shows that the phrase connects directly with the command to “repent.”

Essentially what you have is - “You (plural) repent for the forgiveness of your (plural) sins, and let each one (singular) of you be baptized (singular).” Or, “You all repent for the forgiveness of all of your sins, and let each one of you be baptized.”

Acts 2:38 has two occurrences of the pronoun "your" or "humon"; both are second person plural in the genitive case. The first occurs in the phrase "each of you," in which humon functions as a partitive genitive, indicating the group from which each person derives. The second occurrence is in the phrase "for the remission of your sins," in which humon is a subjective genitive indicating whose sins are involved in the remission.

The basic rule of concord, in Greek, stipulates that a personal pronoun (in this case humon) agrees with its antecedent in gender and number.

The concord between verb and pronoun requires that the remission of sins be connected with repentance, not with baptism.

If one associates forgiveness with baptism, the verse translated into English, with due accord to person and number, would read like this, "let him [third singular] be baptized for the remission of your [second plural] sins." But, such an interpretation or translation would be supporting an absurdity. It would be affirming that an individual's baptism remitted the sin of others, in this case, that of the Pentecostal penitents, or of the crowd, as a group.

The structure of Acts 2:38 illustrates that the command to be baptized is parenthetical and is not syntactically connected to remission of sins. When Peter commanded the people to repent, he was speaking to the crowd. Then the command to be baptized was directed to each individual. In the "remission of your sins" phrase, Peter again directed his words to the crowd collectively.

The issue in Acts 2:38 is that of agreement between the personal pronoun humon and its antecedent.

One must not impose English word order rules on the Greek text. In English the phrase "for the forgiveness of your sins" may be connected to either "repent," "be baptized," or both. However, in the Greek it cannot be so.

In Acts 2:38, repentance is the means of receiving forgiveness and baptism is done in reference to repentance and forgiveness.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43-47 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43? Believed, received remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism.

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism? It followed AFTERWARDS.

Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony*


​

why are you wrestling against the word, you must be born again of water and spirit to enter the kingdom so say Jesus himself.....is it not water baptism he is talking about?[SUP]
5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Alligator]

why are you wrestling against the word, you must be born again of water and spirit to enter the kingdom so say Jesus himself.....is it not water baptism he is talking about?[SUP]
5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

because his goal is to try and win an argument and run down the church of Christ. He changes the meaning of verses to conform to his man made doctrine rather than wanting to get it right.

 

[Kerry]

If baptism is essential then what do we need the cross for?

 

[SolidGround]

all men are born of water.
Does the phrase "my water broke" come to mind?

they are not separate baptisms, but separate births.
I was born of water when I was born of my earthly parents,
and I was born bad.
I needed to be reborn if I was gonna make it to heaven.
I am now reborn in Christ. I was not born a 3rd time when baptized in water.

There is one Baptism: the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Water is simply an object lesson, and an expression of the ONE true Baptism.

Why glorify the expression?

 

[SolidGround]

I am not supporting those who refuse to get baptized in water.
That is simply foolish rebellion, and a sign of either confusion or immaturity.

I am only arguing for what is clear in Scripture, that there is only one Baptism, and that is of the Holy Spirit.
It is not a condition for salvation, but an opportunity to express your saving faith with an action.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Baptism is essential for salvation.

People use the criminal on the cross as reference to support that it is not needed, but baptism was even evident in symbolism in the old testament.

Exodus 19:10-11

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.


Exodus 29:4

And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

Then the new testament attest's for this;


Hebrews 9:18-20

Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.


Then the bible tells us not to be misinformed when it comes to this situation as it applies to those in the past;

1 Corinthians 10:1-2

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

 

[SolidGround]

But then you are saying there are 2 necessary baptisms. The Word says there is only one baptism.

I am having difficulty seeing how you are able to rectify this.

I agree with the symbolism, (except that you need to reread that passage from Hebrews, as it is about blood)
but I believe the symbolism all points to Christ and the Spirit He has sent,
not simply to water baptism, which itself is just a symbol.

 

[kennethcadwell]

But then you are saying there are 2 necessary baptisms. The Word says there is only one baptism.

I am having difficulty seeing how you are able to rectify this.

I agree with the symbolism, (except that you need to reread that passage from Hebrews, as it is about blood)
but I believe the symbolism all points to Christ and the Spirit He has sent,
not simply to water baptism, which itself is just a symbol.

The scripture in Hebrews shows both the justification we receive through the blood of our Lord, and the cleansing ( remission of sins ) through baptism.


Hebrews 9:18-20

Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

He took blood ( symbolism of Jesus blood ) with water ( symbolism of the baptism ) and sprinkled all the people.

 

[newbirth]

all men are born of water.
Does the phrase "my water broke" come to mind?

they are not separate baptisms, but separate births.
I was born of water when I was born of my earthly parents,
and I was born bad.
I needed to be reborn if I was gonna make it to heaven.
I am now reborn in Christ. I was not born a 3rd time when baptized in water.

There is one Baptism: the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Water is simply an object lesson, and an expression of the ONE true Baptism.

Why glorify the expression?

I knew this would come sooner or later but that argument is just for argument sake it holds no water (no pun intended).If it were so,Why would Christ mention it, seeing all men are born that way already? He would simply say you must be born of the spirit seeing that we are born of the water already..God is not the author of confusion...But if I were to answer that I would say to be born in the flesh one must come through the water likewise one must come through the water to be born in the spirit...this is for your spiritual birth
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

picture this...
Romans 6:3-5
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:



Some say this is a spiritual baptism but we see a planting together in the likeness of his death so it is a physical thing happening. look at verse 5 carefully and tell me if you have not been planted in the likeness of his death, who 's resurrection will you be in the likeness of?

 

[newbirth]

I am not supporting those who refuse to get baptized in water.
That is simply foolish rebellion, and a sign of either confusion or immaturity.

I am only arguing for what is clear in Scripture, that there is only one Baptism, and that is of the Holy Spirit.
It is not a condition for salvation, but an opportunity to express your saving faith with an action.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Now this is what we call the great commission, if this does not mean water baptism. I want you to tell me how do you baptise someone with the Holy Spirit. The commission is something you have to do please tell how do you do it? How do you perform Holy Spirit baptism?

 

[Kerry]

Was John the baptist baptized? Is there any notation (if it so important) that any of the 12 were baptized. I think that if it were so important that the Holy Spirit would have pointed that out in scripture. Don't you?

 

[Billyd]

all men are born of water.
Does the phrase "my water broke" come to mind?

they are not separate baptisms, but separate births.
I was born of water when I was born of my earthly parents,
and I was born bad.
I needed to be reborn if I was gonna make it to heaven.
I am now reborn in Christ. I was not born a 3rd time when baptized in water.

There is one Baptism: the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Water is simply an object lesson, and an expression of the ONE true Baptism.

Why glorify the expression?

How does those that were never born fit into your definition of water baptism? This thread has posed more questions than answers. We are Saved by Grace through Faith. That is as plain and simple fact. Yet Jesus, was baptized in water. John the Baptist also told us that he baptized with water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit. From there things get a little murky. Jesus never said that we were to be baptized to be saved. Yet he sent His disciples out to "teach us and to baptize us" (make disciples out of us). There was a promise to the disciples who did this. He would be with them until the end of the world. But. He never baptized any of His disciples. Eleven of them were Saved by their faith. Then we get to the disciples. They baptized those who came for Salvation (most of the time) in the water. Here we are today. The real question is should we or must we be baptized in water in order to be saved, or should we or must we be after we are saved. Since God's Word does not contradict itself, there is an answer.

Now it's time for us to take every scripture that is used to support a position and find the answer that isn't contradicted by another scripture. I see why your scriptures support your position, but your positions are also contradicted by the scriptures used to support other positions.

 

[newbirth]

But then you are saying there are 2 necessary baptisms. The Word says there is only one baptism.

I am having difficulty seeing how you are able to rectify this.

I agree with the symbolism, (except that you need to reread that passage from Hebrews, as it is about blood)
but I believe the symbolism all points to Christ and the Spirit He has sent,
not simply to water baptism, which itself is just a symbol.

The one baptism is of water even Jesus did it and he commands us to do it. Holy Spirit is a gift from God.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:47

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

 

[SolidGround]

If you say you're not baptized in the Holy Spirit, but are only baptized by water, that's on you.
The Holy Spirit is surely a gift, but He is also the one Baptism.

The passage about water and spirit is not confusing. I don't even understand how you got your interpretation from the context.
Did you even read the rest of it?

There are 2 births. Natural and spiritual.
Water and Spirit.

He doesn't mention 3 births: womb, water, and spirit.
Just two.


Please read Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. Notice the conversation of light and dark, and how that imagery is used.
Try to analyze how Jesus is responding to everything that Nicodemus has asked him, and not just saying random phrases. Each phrase is answering something that Nicodemus said, and/or dealing with the circumstances around Nicodemus coming to him.


And to all the verses with the command of baptizing in water:
It is a command. The command doesn't save. It is an expression of faith. Faith is what saves.
The expression of faith is faithfulness/OBEDIENCE.

 

[Kerry]

You are correct natural birth breaks the ( all women break water before birth unless taken surgically and the water breaks anyway) water. Spiritual birth is faith in the work of the Cross.