Romans 7 man not saved.

[gotime]

Many People think that the Romans 7 man is saved but that is simply not so. Paul is describing the person who comes to a knowledge of the law but has not yet found Jesus the one the law should lead us to.

First question:

1. Is the Romans 7 man Spiritual or Carnal?

Answer: Carnal
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

2. Should the Saved person still be Carnal?

Answer: no
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Notice that the Romans 7 man fits this description perfectly, They try to keep the law but can not, thus they are not subject to the law. Notice that if you are in the flesh then you are not Christs.

3. Is the Romans 7 man delivered from sin or slave to it?

Answer: Slave to sin and not delivered.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?



Clearly the Romans 7 man is captive/slave to sin and in need of deliverance.

4. Is it possible that this person is saved while in captivity and serving sin?

Answer: no, we can not serve two masters.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

5. why does Paul use this imagery?

Answer: to show the sinners helpless case and to lead people to Jesus who can deliver us.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

6. Does the sinner stay in this condition after Faith comes?

Answer: no, The Sinner is empowered by the Spirit and no longer walks according to the flesh as seen in Romans 7.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

7. Doesn't Paul say that we serve both after we meet Jesus?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Answer: no, Paul simply shows that in Christ we now are free to chose the law of God or the law of sin. the person in Romans 7 had no choice they served the law of sin no matter what. But the new man empowered by the Spirit is free from the law of sin not like the Romans 7 man who was captive to the law of sin.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


8. Again what was Paul's main point of writing this?

Answer: We are helpless to keep the law even when we realize its good. This should make us realize we are wretched and in need of a savior. Jesus is the answer and Jesus frees us indeed. The law was the schoolmaster that leads us to our need of saving from the Romans 7 condition.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Blessings.

 

[crossnote]

I see Rom 7 as the struggle of an individual, whether he be a non christian or a christian, who is trying unsucessfully to keep the law. The failure is due to the abiding sin which uses the law to bring us into bondage. Solution? Rom 8.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You keep saying the person in Romans 7. That perplexes me because Paul is referring to himself and the struggles we as Christians face. Using himself as the example to show how we are to walk as believers in Christ.

So to say he is not saved, would be saying Paul was not saved do to he was referring to himself.

 

[gotime]

I see Rom 7 as the struggle of an individual, whether he be a non christian or a christian, who is trying unsucessfully to keep the law. The failure is due to the abiding sin which uses the law to bring us into bondage. Solution? Rom 8.

I see Romans 7 as Paul says it.

what you have said is mostly good,I would question only one part. "or a christian" without Romans 8 you can not be a christian. Christians have Christ Romans 7 does not have Christ yet.

 

[gotime]

You keep saying the person in Romans 7. That perplexes me because Paul is referring to himself and the struggles we as Christians face. Using himself as the example to show how we are to walk as believers in Christ.

So to say he is not saved, would be saying Paul was not saved do to he was referring to himself.

Maybe the problem is assuming that when Paul says "I" we assume Paul is speaking of a current condition. this can not be as seen in the text.

As you mentioned Paul says "I" in Romans 7.
but notice what He says in Romans 8.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Notice the word "me" Paul is speaking of himself is he not. Yet here in verse 2 He is free from the very Condition "I" was in in chapter 7.

Notice.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?



Romans 7 "me" is in captivity to law of sin and death.
Romans 8 "me" is free from the law of sin and death


Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Both can not be true at the same time. I conclude then that Paul was using "I" for the reader to read and see themselves in this passage. But whatever reason there is no escaping that both can not be true at the same time.

We can not be in bondage to sin and death and free from sin and death at the same time.

 

[Kerry]

Again, every christian will fail. You must go through Romans 6 and 7 before you get to 8. If the Apostle Paul had too then we must.

 

[Grandpa]

Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Only the saved, or about to be saved, contemplates this question.

The Romans 7 condition is the condition of all men who try to work at the law by their own will and strength.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Romans 7 describes why those who are of the works of the law are under the curse.

Romans 7:18-23
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7 shows the workers of the law this captivity each time, every time.

So who will save us from the body of this death? Certainly not our work at the law.

 

[JamesMcClay]

WRONG. You misunderstand what Paul is even saying.
Paul is in a WAR (something most Chistians WILL NOT DO). He is CHOOSING to believe the Gospel despite the fact he is still succumbing to sin.

Read it again.

 

[Kerry]

His name is Paul, it was changed from Saul after he met Jesus.

 

[gotime]

Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Only the saved, or about to be saved, contemplates this question.

The Romans 7 condition is the condition of all men who try to work at the law by their own will and strength.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Romans 7 describes why those who are of the works of the law are under the curse.

Romans 7:18-23
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7 shows the workers of the law this captivity each time, every time.

So who will save us from the body of this death? Certainly not our work at the law.

not bad, I would suggest one thing though, saved do not contemplate this question the saved have already contemplated it and gone from works to Faith.

what are your thoughts on this?

The Romans 7 man is One who has not graduated from works to faith.

Romans 8 has come to Faith.

 

[gotime]

Romans 7 would be an apt description of Israel who have not yet come to faith in Jesus and rely still on works of the law.

Romans 8 would be the Gentiles and Jews who have come to Faith and the law is then by Faith fulfilled in them.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Thoughts?

 

[Kerry]

Romans 7 would be an apt description of Israel who have not yet come to faith in Jesus and rely still on works of the law.

Romans 8 would be the Gentiles and Jews who have come to Faith and the law is then by Faith fulfilled in them.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Thoughts?

Go, then you have to go to Romans 14. The gentiles that had accepted Christ were not compelled to keep the Sabbath. In fact, Paul gave them permission to divorce their unbelieving spouse.

 

[gotime]

Go, then you have to go to Romans 14. The gentiles that had accepted Christ were not compelled to keep the Sabbath. In fact, Paul gave them permission to divorce their unbelieving spouse.

I disagree Paul speaks against judging.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

You can not prove that Paul here referred to the 7th day Sabbath, this you assume. There were many feast days that revolve around sacrifice that Paul more than likely is referring to as we know that many converted Jews were still keeping the feasts and even trying to get the Gentile converts to keep them. which also involved meet and drink offerings which Paul mentions.

I find in interesting how many people use this text as an argument but no one can say for sure that the 7th day Sabbath is mentioned here.

 

[gotime]

On top of that Paul has spent much time uplifting the 10 commandments in Romans. in fact the chapter before this he does so so we know that He is not referring to the 7th day Sabbath here.

 

[Kerry]

I disagree Paul speaks against judging.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

You can not prove that Paul here referred to the 7th day Sabbath, this you assume. There were many feast days that revolve around sacrifice that Paul more than likely is referring to as we know that many converted Jews were still keeping the feasts and even trying to get the Gentile converts to keep them. which also involved meet and drink offerings which Paul mentions.

I find in interesting how many people use this text as an argument but no one can say for sure that the 7th day Sabbath is mentioned here.

I agree, I am no means promoting the Sabbath. Jesus is my Sabbath, I rest in Him. Just like Paul does in Romans 8.

 

[Atwood]

Many People think that the Romans 7 man is saved

Greetings Got ime or Go Time, as the case may be. Let me make the case that Romans 7 is about the saved carnal man (like the Corinithians who were saved but carnal).

First it is noted that in the structure of Romans the salvation of the lost is the topic in Rom 1-4 and hopefully by the end of Rom 4, he has got the sinner justified (if the sinner responds to the gospel); Rom 5 moves into the Christian life and continues through Rom 8. (As I render Rom 5:1, Wherefore being justified by faith, let us have peace with God). Rom 6-8 is a particularly central passage on the Christian life, and Rom 7 falls in its heart.

Here is Rom 7

"Or are ye ignorant, brethren (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law hath dominion over a man for so long time as he liveth? For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband. So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man.

"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.


"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting [=lusting], except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet: but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead. And I was alive apart from the law once; [must be a Christian]

"but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; and the commandment, which was unto life, this I found to be unto death:

[Paul was sailing along in the Christian life, but the commandment came, and knocked him out of fellowship with God, so that to him it might be said: "Awake thou that sleepest and rise from the dead & Christ shall shine upon thee." This is not the only place where "death" is used as a metaphor for a Christian being out of fellowship.]

"for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me. So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good. Did then that which is good become death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, by working death to me through that which is good; — that through the commandment sin might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do. [That indicates that the man is saved, for he hates sin.]

But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good. So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.

[Looking at those verses & at the following, it is clear that there are two different I's or Me's -- only the Christian could have two competing selves, a good me & a bad me. One me wills to do good, but the other has no good thing in that me, and that 2nd (evil) me is the flesh.]

For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise. But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man; [Only a Christian would delight in the law of God]; but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

[Only a Christian could have such an internal civil war. "My members" here = the flesh above. "My members" are not said to be members of the physical body. Members can include all conceived parts of man, including the spiritual. Colossians also uses "members" for non-physical matters. ]
Col 3 "
"Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry; for which things’ sake cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience: wherein ye also once walked, when ye lived in these things;"

[The Christian can act like the sons of disobedience when his flesh/Old Man/ members are activated -- in Rom 7 activated by the coming of the commandment. When the commandment came, sin revived & I died. Only a Christian can be alive apart from the law, then have sin which was dormant, come to life again (revive). Then his better I dies temporarily -- the Old Man is in operation. The Christian wants his flesh dormant, dead, even though it will go on lusting, expressing its opinion like a hovering ghost in Gal 5.]


Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God
that must be a Christian]; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[The Christian's Old Man or flesh, provides a "body" for sin, a place for sin to reside. This is not the physical body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit for the Christian.

The Christian has two I's -- and that could only be said of the Christian: He has the Old Man & the New Man, co-existing -- death is not nonexistence, but death means separation.]


Rom 8 goes on to say that "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. We are not condemned to the defeat of Rom 7, though it is a possibility. The Christian is a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde; he can act the New Man or the Old Man, but apparently the New Man cannot defeat the Old Man without the aid of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Kerry]

But according to OSAS sin is eradicated and if you fall into sin then you were not really saved right or wrong?

 

[gotime]

One thing I know, When I realized that the Romans 7 man was a slave to sin and not free in Christ I had an experience with God that changed everything.

I do not resonate with the Romans 7 man at all any more. When I will to do good I do it and when I will not to do evil I don't. This is the Romans 8 experience This is Christ in you by Faith. what you could not do by the law you can do in Christ.

I lived most of my christian experience thinking that Romans 7 was how it is till Jesus comes. But through the Word and the Grace of Christ I can honestly say, The Romans 7 man is behind me and forgetting those things that are behind I press forward to the High calling in Christ Jesus.

 

[Kerry]

One thing I know, When I realized that the Romans 7 man was a slave to sin and not free in Christ I had an experience with God that changed everything.

I do not resonate with the Romans 7 man at all any more. When I will to do good I do it and when I will not to do evil I don't. This is the Romans 8 experience This is Christ in you by Faith. what you could not do by the law you can do in Christ.

I lived most of my christian experience thinking that Romans 7 was how it is till Jesus comes. But through the Word and the Grace of Christ I can honestly say, The Romans 7 man is behind me and forgetting those things that are behind I press forward to the High calling in Christ Jesus.

Praise God for that but never forget the man of Romans 7. Cause it will sneak up and bite you. the theme of Romans 7 is placing your faith in the work of Christ and not your own. Never ever forget that.

 

[gotime]

But according to OSAS sin is eradicated and if you fall into sin then you were not really saved right or wrong?

I don't personally believe in once saved always saved. God never takes free will away.

Thus If you have sin eradicated in your life through Faith in Jesus and then fall back into sin you are separated from God unless you repent then you do not fall.

It is a lie of the Devil to say if you fall back into sin you were never really saved in the first place.

For example:

People who are gay and realize its wrong and in Faith they walk with God and their feelings change and their attraction changes. This is the work of God in them.

but if for some reason they fall back into sin people will say Oh well they were never really saved. what does that do?

IT makes people doubt their saving experience and thus harder to repent because of confusion.

OSAS is of the Devil to trap people who like Peter took their eyes of of Jesus and sank.

Peter really walked on the water and it was by Faith in Jesus. OSAS would say to Peter did not really walk on water or else He would have continued. I use this as a metaphor of salvation.

Peter did walk by Faith and Jesus did not ignore Him when he cried out to be saved.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

OSAS makes people doubt their conversion before their fall making it harder to come back to Faith. lies of the Devil.