Romans 7 man not saved.

gotime · Jul 20, 2014

You are right Kerry, The Romans 7 man is always trying to get back control. It is by Faith that we escape it and it is by Faith that we resist it. Only keep our eyes on Jesus I am convinced He is able to finish that which HE has started.

And If I fall I will call out save me and know that He will help me and make me stand again.

Kerry · Jul 20, 2014

Otay enough. If you never sin thats between you and God. I say you sin all the time and don't even realize it. The fact is the closer you get to God the more you find out just how sinful you are and how much more the cross means to you. I'm a cross hugger, because I realize how much it means, with out the cross I am doomed. I try my best, but fail constantly and rely on the cross. Thank God for the cross.

peacefulbeliever · Jul 20, 2014

1 Corinthians 3:1-3

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto you were not able to hear it neither yet now are you able. For you are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, dna strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men?

As long as we are in the flesh we will be "carnal" to a degree . . . we still have this 'body of death' with its senses and emotions which make up the "old man nature" in us. That doesn't go away once we are born again . . . it is a work in progress.

gotime · Jul 20, 2014

Kerry said:

I don't believe I made any claim to never sinning. however I do not willfully commit sin. I know of no sin I am committing right now. that does not mean I am perfect, God knows us much better than we know ourselves.

Gods Grace covers me for sins that I am unaware of, and empowers me to not commit what I know to be sin.

We are only accountable for what we know. So If you are committing sin that you know is sin then I would suggest study the word more that your faith in His Grace increases.

In Christ, the Devil can't make us do anything, not one thing. And in Christ we can do all things.

gotime · Jul 20, 2014

peacefulbeliever said:

But it is dead and dead people can't make you do anything.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Kerry · Jul 20, 2014

gotime said:

I will let this go. But read Romans 7 again carefully. Paul said he was captive, meaning forced or bound or could not of his will stop, a prisoner, forced against his will. The things I will to do i do not and those things which i will not to do those I do.

God bless and keep you.

Atwood · Jul 20, 2014

gotime said:

He started out spiritual: He was alive apart from the law.
The the commandment came, sin revived, & he died [out of fellowship, death being such a figure of speech used of the Christian in the NT].
Sin revived could only be said of a Christian, as it never goes dormant in an unbeliever to be revived, live again after death.
Like the Corinthians who were carnal, so Paul had this experience of being in the Old Man state, carnal; such a one needs to put off the Old Man, & put on the New, to put on Christ Rom 13.

2. Should the Saved person still be Carnal?

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Should is not the point. It is possible, not what ought to be, but in many things we all stumble.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Christians can be sinful or can have peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

But the Christian also has the mind of Christ and he has the mind of his new man. The Old Man of the Christian waxes corrupt; it is never cured, and it is always a mode of operation.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So true. The Christian can act according to the flesh, but He is not in the flesh. His total being is not restricted to flesh as is the unsaved man.

The Romans 7 man is not said to be in the flesh. He is acting according to the flesh, but his total being is not confined to flesh.

He is soon delivered in the chapter.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

You left off the preceding context:

But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

This must be a Christian, who delights in the law and wants to do good. He denies that this "me" is his real self by saying "it is no more I that do it." Only a Christian could say that. Clearly the man has 2 egos. He is in a temporary situation of slavery acting according to the flesh. And this man of Rom 7 is confident that the Lord Jesus will deliver him.

Your question is about saved. Then you forget what you asked & answer with a statement about serving a master. Salvation is about a loving Savior saving the sinner, and also fulfilling His promise: "Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Yes, Rom 6 speaks of saved men who may serve sin to death (separation from fellowship with God temporarily). Rom 6 tells the man that His old man has been crucified, not made non-existent. The Christian is told to know he died, reckon it to be so, and to present Himself to God.

5. why does Paul use this imagery?

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Answer: to show the Christian how helpless he is in his own power and how disasterous it is to try to live by the law (when the commandment came, sin revived & I died); Rom 8 goes on to give the way to victory for the Christian who is not condemned to the Rom 7 defeat.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

That verse clearly indicates that the Christian has 2 forces within Him: 1) His New Man mind & 2) the Old Man flesh. But trying to serve the Law started this predicament: "When the commandment came, sin revived & I died."

The Spirit is an alternative to the flesh (Gal 5). And note that "according to the flesh" is not "in the flesh."

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 7:25 clearly shows that 2 forces are at work in the Christian. The passage says nothing about being free to choose the law of God. In fact it is the "coming of the commandment" which got him into this pickle. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived & I died. The whole passage shows that the Christian was only able to choose to do God's will & endorse God's law in his mind, but in action, he was just sinning. If anything this passage teaches the folly of trying to live the Christian life by the law.

the person in Romans 7 had no choice they served the law of sin no matter what. But the new man empowered by the Spirit is free from the law of sin not like the Romans 7 man who was captive to the law of sin.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

We are helpless to keep the law even when we realize its good. This should make us realize we are wretched and in need of a savior. Jesus is the answer and Jesus frees us indeed. The law was the schoolmaster that leads us to our need of saving from the Romans 7 condition.

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Now that is certainly true, taking "we" and "us" to mean the Christian. The Christian needs the present time salvation by the Lord Jesus.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

gotime · Jul 20, 2014

Kerry said:

Yes I know it says that, like I said that is pre-faith.

And If your experience still lines up with that then you are still to come to faith. I am free in Christ Sin can not force me to do anything. I am not in bondage to the law of sin.

This is why Jesus died to free us who were held in bondage to sin and death.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Kerry · Jul 20, 2014

How could it be pre faith. Saul met Jesus on the road to Damascus. Jesus, changed his name to Paul and was blind. after receiving the Holy Spirit, the scales fell off. Were talking acts. How could a pre faith man preach and then write a letter of instruction to the Romans.

Now your talking like a double cheeseburger a large fry and an apple pie with Diet Coke. It makes no sense.

Atwood · Jul 20, 2014

gotime said:

It is not pre-faith, but post faith. Rom 7 starts out addressing believers, obviously and without dispute. Then it comes to a monkey-wrench verse: I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived & I died. Only a Christian was once alive part from the law. Only in the Christian could sin be dormant, dead; then live again (revive). The instrument of bringing the law back to life was the coming of the commandment! The man in Rom 7 delights in God's law, but has 2 me's. This is only true of the Christian.

gotime · Jul 20, 2014

Oh I fear for you guys, you honestly think that your lot in life is to be like the description in Romans 7.

Jesus died to cast of that bondage to sin. That is not living free in Christ.

Brethren is that what we think of the cross of Christ that his blood simply pardoned but no power?

Why would Paul say not to yield to sin and the flesh if its impossible in Christ to do so?

Many of you are interpreting Romans by your experience and not what it says. Don't buy the lie, In Christ you are free from the law of sin and death. You are no longer slaves to the flesh to do according to its bidding.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Atwood · Jul 20, 2014

gotime said:

Dead is not non-existent in the Bible. The Old Man hangs around at least like a ghost, vitally separated from the Christian, but able to give his opinion -- to lust per Gal 5. It is possible to put on the Old Man and act like the unsaved man you were before saved (if you are saved). Christians do this. In many things we all stumble.

"Make you do something"? We don't have to walk according to the flesh, but we sure can do it.

Kerry · Jul 20, 2014

No my lot in life is Romans 8. But as a Christian I had to go through Romans 6,7 and are still going through it because I will not be perfect till the rapture.

gotime · Jul 20, 2014

Atwood said:

No its not. Paul is speaking to Jews who know the law but have not come to Faith in Jesus. Paul is reasoning that though they know the law they can not keep it thus they need something other than the law, The answer is Jesus.

That is why in Romans 7 Paul addresses those who have law but not Faith. and shows them the problem of only having law with out faith. then Romans 8 is Faith in Jesus because the law can not save. but Jesus through the Spirit saves.

Once he does that he says this in the beginning of 9.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

See Paul is trying to convince Israel according to the flesh that the law can not save but Christ can.

gotime · Jul 20, 2014

Kerry said:

SO you think Romans 8 is only fulfilled at the rapture?

Atwood · Jul 20, 2014

gotime said:

Who is claiming that at any time the World, the flesh, or the devil make you do things? The man in Romans 7 was not willfully sinning; he said it was not I, but sin dwelling in me. He said he was doing what he really did not want to do.

I don't think that Christians usually commit presumptuous sin, like the guy who picked up the sticks on the Sabbath. At the same time, I don't think the Christian is doing robotics when he sins.

peacefulbeliever · Jul 20, 2014

gotime said:

Our 'old man' does not die until we literally die. Or else we wouldn't be told how to 'put off the old man' and 'put on the new man' nor to 'renew our minds'.

Colossians 3:9,10 Lie not one to another seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds: And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Romans 12:1,2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Ephesians 4:22-24 That you put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that youput on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Spiritually on the inside in that new man God has created in us - we are righteous and holy but we still have this outer shell called 'flesh', 'old man' and 'carnal'.

2 Corinthians 4:15,16 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many rebound to the glory of God. For which cause we faint not; but through our outward man perish, yet the inward man I renewed day by day.

gotime · Jul 20, 2014

Kerry said:

ok I see the problem, you are assuming because Paul says "I" that he is speaking of himself currently. There is your problem.

As stated in another post can these be true at the same time?

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

and

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

one says "me" is a captive to the law of sin and death.
The other "me" says free from the law of sin and death.

Both can't be true at the same time. you are either captive or free. Thus proving that Paul is not saying "I" to mean I am currently in this position.

gotime · Jul 20, 2014

peacefulbeliever said:

Yes it does if by Faith we crucify it with Christ. Now I agree to some extent. The old man keeps trying to live again. the point is this it dies enough that we don't obey it any more and it can't make us sin any more.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

clearly we need not be controlled by the old man any more.

Atwood · Jul 20, 2014

gotime said:

What does free will have to do with this? You really went on at length just saying things with no scripture proof.

This is God's promise that the believer has eternal life and will never perish.

He has promised:

"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sin."

It is no metaphor of how to get saved, as Peter was surely saved long before that. But it does make a good illustration of how constant faith is necessary in the Christian life, but even if you fail in a situation in life to trust the Lord in that situation, nevertheless, you are kept saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

OSAS makes people [sic] doubt their conversion before their fall making it harder to come back to Faith.[/quote]

I would agree that what you said is

'=

1 John 2 tells us that those who are in the Body of Christ continue there & do not depart.

Let me urge you who write off the Lord Jesus as a mere chance-giver, to actually trust Him as your only & sufficient Savior.

Jehovah redeems the soul of his servants;
And none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
Col 3
When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then you also with him shall be manifested in glory.
2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

< 2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom;

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Romans 7 man not saved.

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