ONCE saved always saved!.

[newbirth]

And yet the opposite belief also has issues. If we're always wondering if we've fallen out of God's grace, we have no divine assurance that we are right with God because of Christ and that we can rest in Him and what He's done for us. And in response, turning from our sin and being obedient unto Him.

Look at it, you want God to clean you up, take you in and in response you would repent(turn from sin) and be obedient...that ain't happening bro. Is that how you did it?...Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


That is why would you be wondering if you are fallen, or if you are walking after the spirit?



Why do say we have no divine assurance...
[SUP]


3 [/SUP]His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to[SUP][c][/SUP] his own glory and excellence,[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]4 [/SUP]by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,[SUP][e][/SUP] and virtue with knowledge, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these qualities[SUP][f][/SUP] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore, brothers,[SUP][g][/SUP] be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Jason0047]

Water baptism is essential to salvation, Act 2:38; Jn 3:5; Mk 15:16; Rom 6:3-5; Col 2:12-14; Gal 3:27...

No, while I am sure you have heard this verse before, you are going to need to hear it again: For Scripture says, baptism saves us as an answer of a good conscience toward God; Baptism does NOT save us from the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin).

1 Peter 3:21
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

For we are saved, not by any righteousness that we had done, but we are saved by the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).

Where is the word "legalism" found in the bible? Where is obeying God's will ever called "legalism" in the bible?

The Bible does not have to specifically say a special name that we are familar with in the Bible in order for it to be spoken about in the Bible. There are many words and concepts we use today that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible. The Bible does not talk about the "Conditional Salvation" by name, but it is a concept that exists within the Scriptures none the less. Legalism is not about abiding with God's Spirit whereby He does the good work within you. Legalism is the over emphasis on man's works to save himself rather than repenting of one's sins and and trusting in the grace of Jesus Christ so as to be cleansed. It is trust in His grace as being 100% sufficient rather than what we do. In John 6:28-29, Jesus was asked the question, what must they do in order to do the works of God? Jesus did not give them a long list of things to do. Instead, Jesus essentially said believe in Him.

For example: Take Luke 18:9-14: Who was more justified before God? Was it the Tax Collector (Publican) who cried out to God to have mercy on him in the fact that he was a sinner? Or was it the Pharisee who did many wonderful things and thought he was better than other people (Such as the Tax Collector)?

For the thief on the cross was saved without water baptism.

Now, of course, you are going to say that this was in a different Covenant. But you have to understand that no one was saved ever by keeping the Law. Not even in the Old Testament. Everyone was saved by having a born again (or circumcised in heart) faith. Including Abraham. A life of holiness and fruitful works is simply the result of having a transformed heart and the proof that God lives within them. For if God made it harder for others to be saved by following a set of rules to be saved versus trusting and repenting of one's sins (Which is easier), then God would be a respector of persons.

If obeying God's will is "legalism" and disobedience to God's will is sin, then what is man to do?

No, my friend. Please do not take this the wrong way, but you are falsely labelling "God's will" into a list of things that the Bible does not say we have to do in order to be saved. One naturally obeys God's will when they are saved. Works are are merely the effect of salvation and works are not the cause for one's salvation.

 

[Jason0047]

stay clear from the doctrine of men .....

Thank you, my friend. I will definitely strive to do so with God's help.

Anyways, may God bless you.

 

[Jason0047]

Look at it, you want God to clean you up, take you in and in response you would repent(turn from sin) and be obedient...that ain't happening bro. Is that how you did it?...Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That is why would you be wondering if you are fallen, or if you are walking after the spirit?

Why do say we have no divine assurance...
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to[SUP][c][/SUP] his own glory and excellence,[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]4 [/SUP]by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,[SUP][e][/SUP] and virtue with knowledge, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these qualities[SUP][f][/SUP] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore, brothers,[SUP][g][/SUP] be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

When I read the Scriptures, I never get the impression that we can do bad things (Such as lie, cheat, steal, fornicate) and be still be saved without repenting of those things. In fact, the Scriptures teach the exact opposite. For Paul says if we do such things we will not inherit the Kingdom of God; And Jesus says you cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other. Jesus also says that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and vise versa, too.

 

[Jason0047]

...you have to understand that no one was saved ever by keeping the Law. Not even in the Old Testament. Everyone was saved by having a born again (or circumcised in heart) faith. Including Abraham. A life of holiness and fruitful works is simply the result of having a transformed heart and the proof that God lives within them. For if God made it harder for others to be saved by following a set of rules to be saved versus trusting and repenting of one's sins (Which is easier), then God would be a respector of persons.

Where is the word "legalism" found in the bible? Where is obeying God's will ever called "legalism" in the bible?

For the Old Testament says, He desires mercy and not sacrifice. The New Testament says that loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbor is better than the whole of one's burnt sacrifices. In other words, the Scriptures are not saying that the OT saint was to refuse sacrifice; The point was to show that one must first love God and love all others first. This means more to God than just sacrifices alone. For one needs to be born again spiritually so as to love and so as to enter the Kingdom of God. This concept refutes Legalism yet at the same time it upholds the idea that a believer must be moral and upright by their choosing to abide in Christ so as to allow His "good works" to flow within them. For Jesus saves both in Justification and Sanctification.

 

[SeaBass]

No, while I am sure you have heard this verse before, you are going to need to hear it again: For Scripture says, baptism saves us as an answer of a good conscience toward God; Baptism does NOT save us from the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin).

1 Peter 3:21
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

For we are saved, not by any righteousness that we had done, but we are saved by the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).

Peter said "baptism doth also now save us" So it cannot be anymore clear that God has chosen water baptism as the means by which He saves men. Nothing in the rest of verse 21 changes the fact that baptism saves. After Peter tells us baptism saves, he then tells us what water baptism is NOT for and what water baptism is for. Water baptism is NOT like taking a bath where one washes dirt off his flesh. What water baptism is for, it is an answer of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the point were sins are remitted, washed away by the blood of Christ. So when one has been water baptized and washed away his sins he can have a good conscience toward God.

In Acts 2, Peter convicted his listeners of the sin of crucifying the Messiah. Those that heard and believed what Peter said, it made their conscience guilty of that sin so much so they asked Peter "what shall we do?" The "answer" Peter gave them for their guilty conscience of sin was the command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Being water baptized for remission of sins is the answer for their guilty conscience so they can then have a good conscience towards God.


Tts 3:5 speaks of the water baptism of the new birth:

Jn 3:5-----------spirit+++++++++born of water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5--------Holy Ghost+++++washing of regen.>>>>>>>>>saved

All there verses say the same thing, it takes the Spirit and water baptism to be saved/in the kingdom/in the body.

Note how Paul CONTRASTS our own righteousness we have done FROM the obedience in being water baptized/washing of regeneration. Paul makes this same contrast in Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have NOT submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Those Jews were lost for they were doing their OWN righteousness and NOT doing GOD'S righteousness.


Some people do not see the difference between a man doing HIS OWN righteousness and doing GOD'S righteousness.

A man doing his OWN righteousness, his own good works cannot merit salvation so one must do God's rightesousness. Psa 119:172 says all of God's commandments are righteousness. So when one obeys God he is doing GOD'S righteousness not his own righteousness. As John said in 1 Jn "he that doeth righteousness is righteous" and NOT he that doeth righeousness is a legalist.

1 Jn 1:7,10 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous....In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The Bible does not have to specifically say a special name that we are familar with in the Bible in order for it to be spoken about in the Bible. There are many words and concepts we use today that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible. The Bible does not talk about the "Conditional Salvation" by name, but it is a concept that exists within the Scriptures none the less. Legalism is not about abiding with God's Spirit whereby He does the good work within you. Legalism is the over emphasis on man's works to save himself rather than repenting of one's sins and and trusting in the grace of Jesus Christ so as to be cleansed. It is trust in His grace as being 100% sufficient rather than what we do. In John 6:28-29, Jesus was asked the question, what must they do in order to do the works of God? Jesus did not give them a long list of things to do. Instead, Jesus essentially said believe in Him.

Legalism or legalist is not in the bible. What happens is people define this word according to their own bias and misapply that biased definition to the bible. Some will argue that the Pharisees were legalists. The Pharisees were condemned for hypocrisy, condemned fro replacing their traditions for God's law but the Pharisees were NEVER condemned for following/obeying God's word. In fact, they were condemned over and over for NOT obeying God's word

For example: Take Luke 18:9-14: Who was more justified before God? Was it the Tax Collector (Publican) who cried out to God to have mercy on him in the fact that he was a sinner? Or was it the Pharisee who did many wonderful things and thought he was better than other people (Such as the Tax Collector)?

For the thief on the cross was saved without water baptism.

These are two examples of those under the OT law and not under Christ's NT gospel.
[There is no proof the thief had never been baptized.]

Now, of course, you are going to say that this was in a different Covenant. But you have to understand that no one was saved ever by keeping the Law. Not even in the Old Testament. Everyone was saved by having a born again (or circumcised in heart) faith. Including Abraham. A life of holiness and fruitful works is simply the result of having a transformed heart and the proof that God lives within them. For if God made it harder for others to be saved by following a set of rules to be saved versus trusting and repenting of one's sins (Which is easier), then God would be a respector of persons.

People were condemned for NOT keeping God's law.

Duet 28:45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:

1 Kings 9:6,7 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people.

Psa 89:30-32 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes

Even in the NT Jesus said "If ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. Who will be saved that does not love Christ by not keeping His commandments? None.

No, my friend. Please do not take this the wrong way, but you are falsely labelling "God's will" into a list of things that the Bible does not say we have to do in order to be saved. One naturally obeys God's will when they are saved. Works are are merely the effect of salvation and works are not the cause for one's salvation.

It is God's will that men obey the gospel by believing, Jn 8:24; repenting, Lk 13:3,5 confession, Mt 10:32,33 and be baptized, Mk 16:16 to be saved.

God, who cannot lie, cannot break His promises has promised to save those that obey, Heb 5:9 and have vengeance upon the that OBEY NOT the gospel of Christ.

So the question remains, if obeying God's law is legalism and not obeying God's law is sin/disobedience/unrighteousness with God taking vengeance upon those that "obey not" then what is a man to do?

 

[SeaBass]

For the Old Testament says, He desires mercy and not sacrifice. The New Testament says that loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbor is better than the whole of one's burnt sacrifices. In other words, the Scriptures are not saying that the OT saint was to refuse sacrifice; The point was to show that one must first love God and love all others first. This means more to God than just sacrifices alone. For one needs to be born again spiritually so as to love and so as to enter the Kingdom of God. This concept refutes Legalism yet at the same time it upholds the idea that a believer must be moral and upright by their choosing to abide in Christ so as to allow His "good works" to flow within them. For Jesus saves both in Justification and Sanctification.

God is not looking for sinless perfection but desired a faithful obedience in both the OT law and also in NT law.

You post "The New Testament says that loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbor is better than the whole of one's burnt sacrifices"

How does the NT define loving God?

J 14:15,21 If ye love me, keep my commandments....He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 Jn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous

2 Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it


Obviously loving God is not a mere emotional feeling or something thought about but an action, an act of obedience to God's will.
----------------------------

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

Does verse 9 make one a legalist for obeying God? Does verse 8 make Christ a legalist for obeying God?

 

[Jason0047]

Peter said "baptism doth also now save us" So it cannot be anymore clear that God has chosen water baptism as the means by which He saves men. Nothing in the rest of verse 21 changes the fact that baptism saves. After Peter tells us baptism saves, he then tells us what water baptism is NOT for and what water baptism is for. Water baptism is NOT like taking a bath where one washes dirt off his flesh. What water baptism is for, it is an answer of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the point were sins are remitted, washed away by the blood of Christ. So when one has been water baptized and washed away his sins he can have a good conscience toward God.

In Acts 2, Peter convicted his listeners of the sin of crucifying the Messiah. Those that heard and believed what Peter said, it made their conscience guilty of that sin so much so they asked Peter "what shall we do?" The "answer" Peter gave them for their guilty conscience of sin was the command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Being water baptized for remission of sins is the answer for their guilty conscience so they can then have a good conscience towards God.


Tts 3:5 speaks of the water baptism of the new birth:

Jn 3:5-----------spirit+++++++++born of water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5--------Holy Ghost+++++washing of regen.>>>>>>>>>saved

All there verses say the same thing, it takes the Spirit and water baptism to be saved/in the kingdom/in the body.

Note how Paul CONTRASTS our own righteousness we have done FROM the obedience in being water baptized/washing of regeneration. Paul makes this same contrast in Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have NOT submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Those Jews were lost for they were doing their OWN righteousness and NOT doing GOD'S righteousness.


Some people do not see the difference between a man doing HIS OWN righteousness and doing GOD'S righteousness.

A man doing his OWN righteousness, his own good works cannot merit salvation so one must do God's rightesousness. Psa 119:172 says all of God's commandments are righteousness. So when one obeys God he is doing GOD'S righteousness not his own righteousness. As John said in 1 Jn "he that doeth righteousness is righteous" and NOT he that doeth righeousness is a legalist.

1 Jn 1:7,10 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous....In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.




Legalism or legalist is not in the bible. What happens is people define this word according to their own bias and misapply that biased definition to the bible. Some will argue that the Pharisees were legalists. The Pharisees were condemned for hypocrisy, condemned fro replacing their traditions for God's law but the Pharisees were NEVER condemned for following/obeying God's word. In fact, they were condemned over and over for NOT obeying God's word



These are two examples of those under the OT law and not under Christ's NT gospel.
[There is no proof the thief had never been baptized.]



People were condemned for NOT keeping God's law.

Duet 28:45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:

1 Kings 9:6,7 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people.

Psa 89:30-32 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes

Even in the NT Jesus said "If ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. Who will be saved that does not love Christ by not keeping His commandments? None.




It is God's will that men obey the gospel by believing, Jn 8:24; repenting, Lk 13:3,5 confession, Mt 10:32,33 and be baptized, Mk 16:16 to be saved.

God, who cannot lie, cannot break His promises has promised to save those that obey, Heb 5:9 and have vengeance upon the that OBEY NOT the gospel of Christ.

So the question remains, if obeying God's law is legalism and not obeying God's law is sin/disobedience/unrighteousness with God taking vengeance upon those that "obey not" then what is a man to do?

I was baptized not with the intent that it would save me. I believe Jesus is what saves me. In other words, would I need to get baptized again with the intent that it saves me in order to be truly saved? See, you are missing the whole point. One naturally does those things of God after they are saved. Baptism only saves in clearing the conscience and not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh, which is sin.

Also, being born of water in John chapter 3 is not talking about baptism. It is talking about being born by the written Word of God. For we are to sanctify the church with the washing of the water of the Word (Ephesians 5:25, 26). For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Which is what the Parable of the Sower is all about. The seed is the words of God that are within the Scriptures.

So while you believe a performance on your part saves you in addition to the cross, I will trust in Jesus Christ who is my Savior so as to save me. Does this mean, I disobey God's commands within the New Testament? No, most certainly not. But these things are done not so as to be saved, but they are done after one is saved (or regenerated whereby God lives within their heart and does the good work within them).

 

[Jason0047]

God is not looking for sinless perfection but desired a faithful obedience in both the OT law and also in NT law.

You post "The New Testament says that loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbor is better than the whole of one's burnt sacrifices"

How does the NT define loving God?

J 14:15,21 If ye love me, keep my commandments....He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 Jn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous

2 Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it


Obviously loving God is not a mere emotional feeling or something thought about but an action, an act of obedience to God's will.
----------------------------

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

Does verse 9 make one a legalist for obeying God? Does verse 8 make Christ a legalist for obeying God?

I never said that we don't keep His commandments. I said a life of holiness and fruitful works (Which would involve New Testament Commandment keeping) will be the natural result of having repented of your sins and accepting Jesus as one's Savior. If they mess up. They have God's grace to go back to so as to walk perfectly in Him. But it is not YOU who keeps God's Commands. No. No. YOU can do nothing without Jesus Christ. Just read John chapter 15. For it is why the elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. For it was Jesus who was living within them by their free will choice in allowing Him to abide in their hearts and lives in everything that they did. For it's why Paul said it was no longer himself that lived but it was Jesus Christ that lived within him. For Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

 

[SeaBass]

I never said that we don't keep His commandments. I said a life of holiness and fruitful works (Which would involve New Testament Commandment keeping) will be the natural result of having repented of your sins and accepting Jesus as one's Savior. If they mess up. They have God's grace to go back to so as to walk perfectly in Him. But it is not YOU who keeps God's Commands. No. No. YOU can do nothing without Jesus Christ. Just read John chapter 15. For it is why the elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. For it was Jesus who was living within them by their free will choice in allowing Him to abide in their hearts and lives in everything that they did. For it's why Paul said it was no longer himself that lived but it was Jesus Christ that lived within him. For Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

In an earlier post you said That somehow his sacrifice was not enough to save you after receiving his free gift. That you must also go out next week and do something to be saved, like being baptized......

Christ commanded baptism. Does that command have to be obeyed or can one disobey that command and be saved anyway? Christ also commanded one to believe and repent. Can one be saved while remaining in disobedience to these commands?

In Heb 12:2 the word "our" was added by translators and not in original texts. Christ is the author and finisher of THE faith. "THE faith" refers to the NT, the body of information found from Matthew to Revelation.

 

[SeaBass]

I was baptized not with the intent that it would save me. I believe Jesus is what saves me. In other words, would I need to get baptized again with the intent that it saves me in order to be truly saved? See, you are missing the whole point. One naturally does those things of God after they are saved. Baptism only saves in clearing the conscience and not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh, which is sin.

I think everyone on this forum would agree that "Jesus saves". The issue as I see it is WHO/WHY does He save? Christ does not save people at random, so there must be a basis as to why He saves some and not others. Heb 5:9 gives that basis..'Christ is the author of salvation to all them that obey him'.

How can one be saved BEFORE being baptized when in verses like Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 baptism is put BEFORE salvation/remission of sins?

Again, Psa 119:172 says all of God's command are righteousness....so working rightoeusness = obeying God's will.
And from Acts 10:35 God accepts them that work righteousness. So how can one be accepted with God BEFORE he works righteousness? It's not possible. John said "whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God" Again, how can one be of God BEFORE they work righteousness?

Also, being born of water in John chapter 3 is not talking about baptism. It is talking about being born by the written Word of God. For we are to sanctify the church with the washing of the water of the Word (Ephesians 5:25, 26). For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Which is what the Parable of the Sower is all about. The seed is the words of God that are within the Scriptures.

I disagree. BOrn of water in Jn 3:5 = water baptism. The bible is its own best commentary:

Jn 3:5-----------spirit++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------spirit++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body

These are two "born again" verses. Since there is just one way to be saved/born again then both verses must express the same idea, with both verses being equivalent to each other.
spirit = spirit
Water = baptized
in the kingdom = in the body

So while you believe a performance on your part saves you in addition to the cross, I will trust in Jesus Christ who is my Savior so as to save me. Does this mean, I disobey God's commands within the New Testament? No, most certainly not. But these things are done not so as to be saved, but they are done after one is saved (or regenerated whereby God lives within their heart and does the good work within them).

Obedience/working righteousness is a work that God Himself said will save.

Again John said 'whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God'

So how will one ever be of God without doing righteousness? Not possible.

Jesus said one must believe, Jn 8:24; repent, Lk 13:3,5, confess, Mt 10:32,33 be baptized, Mk 16;16. Are you suggesting one is saved BEFORE he does these things?

Can one be saved as an unbeliever, impenitent denier of Christ in his unwashed sins?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

If a person is being obedient to GODs word in their own strength,then I think that would be legalism,because they would not be perfectly right without sin,only JESUS could be perfect; And through the grace that JESUS provided we now have hope.

 

[SeaBass]

If a person is being obedient to GODs word in their own strength,then I think that would be legalism,because they would not be perfectly right without sin,only JESUS could be perfect; And through the grace that JESUS provided we now have hope.

One would have to obey based on his own choice to obey or it would not be true obedience.

God is not looking for sinless perfection but a faithful obedience. 1 Jn 1:7 if the Christian faithfully walks in the light then Christ' s blood washes away all sins keeping the Christian "holy and without blame" Eph 1:4.

 

[Kerry]

One would have to obey based on his own choice to obey or it would not be true obedience.

God is not looking for sinless perfection but a faithful obedience. 1 Jn 1:7 if the Christian faithfully walks in the light then Christ' s blood washes away all sins keeping the Christian "holy and without blame" Eph 1:4.

God is looking for faith in the cross, because faith in the cross is the only way you can live victoriously over sin.

 

[SeaBass]

God is looking for faith in the cross, because faith in the cross is the only way you can live victoriously over sin.

Looking for faith, not faith only.

 

[Jason0047]

In an earlier post you said That somehow his sacrifice was not enough to save you after receiving his free gift. That you must also go out next week and do something to be saved, like being baptized......

Christ commanded baptism. Does that command have to be obeyed or can one disobey that command and be saved anyway? Christ also commanded one to believe and repent. Can one be saved while remaining in disobedience to these commands?

In Heb 12:2 the word "our" was added by translators and not in original texts. Christ is the author and finisher of THE faith. "THE faith" refers to the NT, the body of information found from Matthew to Revelation.

There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins that lead unto death are those types of sins that Paul lists numerous times (i.e. lying, theft, hate, fornicating, drunkeneness, etc.); For they that do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. In addition, Peter specifically says baptism only saves as a good conscience towards God and not for the putting away the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin). Also, what happens if you are marooned on a deserted island? You find a Bible, repent of your sins, and accept Jesus. Are you not saved because no one is around to baptize you? As for a believer refusing to be baptized: Well, I would think a true believer will want to get baptized by the right group of believers and not just by any old church that could have a false doctrine.

 

[Jason0047]

There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins that lead unto death are those types of sins that Paul lists numerous times (i.e. lying, theft, hate, fornicating, drunkeneness, etc.); For they that do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. In addition, Peter specifically says baptism only saves as a good conscience towards God and not for the putting away the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin). Also, what happens if you are marooned on a deserted island? You find a Bible, repent of your sins, and accept Jesus. Are you not saved because no one is around to baptize you? As for a believer refusing to be baptized: Well, I would think a true believer will want to get baptized by the right group of believers and not just by any old church that could have a false doctrine.

In other words, from my experience, finding the right church is not as easy as it appears. It takes hard work to find that right church that is not corrupt or fake in some way. In other words, while you are searching to find that right church in order to get baptized, lets say you get hit by bus and die. Are you not saved?

What if you were a poor beggar who repented of your sins, and accepted Jesus according to a Bible you found? Say you are unlearned in knowing about baptism and you are just starting to learn about the Bible. What if you are rejected by most churches in you area because you are dirty and everyone else is clean? Say you die before you find that church that will take you in? Are you not saved?

What if you are about to die and somebody tells you about Jesus and you repent of your sins and accept Jesus? Are you not saved? How is that different than the thief on the cross? Is God a respector of persons or limited by time when it comes to saving people?

Does the performance of an actual ritual really save you?
Or is it really Jesus Christ that saves people?
Think about it.

 

[Jason0047]

In Heb 12:2 the word "our" was added by translators and not in original texts. Christ is the author and finisher of THE faith. "THE faith" refers to the NT, the body of information found from Matthew to Revelation.

No, my friend. There are no mistakes in the Word of God. For who does the "good work" in a believer's life? Is it God? Or is it the believer? Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10 KJV
Hebrews 12:1, 2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22, 23, 24 (cf. Matthew 7:16, 18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26, 27


For as I said before, the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.


Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

 

[newbirth]

I was baptized not with the intent that it would save me. I believe Jesus is what saves me. In other words, would I need to get baptized again with the intent that it saves me in order to be truly saved? See, you are missing the whole point. One naturally does those things of God after they are saved. Baptism only saves in clearing the conscience and not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh, which is sin.

So you were not baptised for the remission of sins? So you were not baptised into Christ's death and raised to walk in the newness of life? How can you say baptism does not wash away sins>

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Also, being born of water in John chapter 3 is not talking about baptism. It is talking about being born by the written Word of God. For we are to sanctify the church with the washing of the water of the Word (Ephesians 5:25, 26). For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Which is what the Parable of the Sower is all about. The seed is the words of God that are within the Scriptures.

unless you are born of the water and of the spirit you cannot enter the kingdom...and here it is water baptism born of water and gift of the Holy Ghost born of the spirit...
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

So while you believe a performance on your part saves you in addition to the cross, I will trust in Jesus Christ who is my Savior so as to save me. Does this mean, I disobey God's commands within the New Testament? No, most certainly not. But these things are done not so as to be saved, but they are done after one is saved (or regenerated whereby God lives within their heart and does the good work within them)

The remission of sin is not the end of out salvation, God gave us the power to become a son of God. He works in us so we can do the good works.

Since when is a command from God is a performance?

 

[SeaBass]

There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins that lead unto death are those types of sins that Paul lists numerous times (i.e. lying, theft, hate, fornicating, drunkeneness, etc.); For they that do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. In addition, Peter specifically says baptism only saves as a good conscience towards God and not for the putting away the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin). Also, what happens if you are marooned on a deserted island? You find a Bible, repent of your sins, and accept Jesus. Are you not saved because no one is around to baptize you? As for a believer refusing to be baptized: Well, I would think a true believer will want to get baptized by the right group of believers and not just by any old church that could have a false doctrine.

Peter said in Acts 2:38 baptism is for remission of sins. So why would he turn around and contradict that in 1 Pet 3:21 by saying baptism is not for washing away sins? When Peter said baptism is not for removal of dirt from the flesh, this is not about sin. Peter is saying baptism is not like taking a bath to remove outward dirt of the flesh, it's not some ceremonial washing of the body as the Jews had. There is an inward spiritual cleansing away of sins that takes place when one is baptized. Baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God. Conscience has to do with sin. Sins are remitted in baptism freeing the conscience of sin thereby giving one a good conscience towards God.

In the context Peter makes an OT type to NT anti-type.

OT type:--------saved by water (flood)
NT anti-type:-- saved by water (baptism)

Peter said baptism saves and nothing in the rest of that verse (or bible) changes the fact baptism saves. Being alone on an island alone does not change God's word. What if an atheist were alone on an island and dying of thirst/starvation. Moments before dying he begins to think there is a "Higher Power" and life after death but dies not knowing who or what to believe in. He would have come to believe if only given a chance. So do we bypass what the bible says about belief and allow this atheist be saved in unbelief?