Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
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Pharisees tried to find anything to blackmail our Lord and his popular ministry... I´m sure he drank what He drank and, while sharing with every people, those "Holly Moly" people, saw He was loved by tax collectors and prostitutes (such as Simon, the leper) and "blamed" Him for partaking simple things. Jeus was a Jew! No corruption was in His mouth or soul. If you believed he never drank wine (fermented) it is okey (I belived it differently, same way John chose his food).
Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."
Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."
Im pretty sure I just said Im not going to get everyone's life story before I have a drink everytime. Seriously if humans took the weaker brother verses to the extent youre saying wed be spending too much time worrying about that than dealing with whatever life is currently throwing at us anyways. Maybe Im the weaker brother and your constant twisting of scriptures and terribly old-fashioned concepts are reminding me why sometimes I wish christianis didnt all get lumped into one huge pile by people. I know if you had been the type of christian who was around when I needed them most, I probably wouldnt be where I am today.
By the way, have you seen that -several times- the scripture compared donkeys with men? The time I knew their culture used it as a metaphor I liked it more. (I said donkeys, not monkeys)
Gen_16:12 He shall be a wild donkey of a man, his hand against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen."
Gen_49:11 Binding his foal to the vine and his donkey's colt to the choice vine, he has washed his garments in wine and his vesture in the blood of grapes.
Gen_49:14 "Issachar is a strong donkey, crouching between the sheepfolds
Exo_13:13 Every firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. Every firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem.
Exo_23:5 If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying down under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it; you shall rescue it with him.
Exo_34:20 The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. And none shall appear before me empty-handed.
Num_22:28 Then the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?"
Num_22:30 And the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey, on which you have ridden all your life long to this day? Is it my habit to treat you this way?" And he said, "No."
Num_22:33 The donkey saw me and turned aside before me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, surely just now I would have killed you and let her live."
Deu_22:10 You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together.
So do not be unequally yoked!
Sir! i was about to marry a prostitute, one who got her money that way (and did not turn back from it, like Ahola or Aholiba). I see no problem in marrying one like those, except they insist on sinning that way. In fact, I could tell much more on that sin, but I don´t want to insult people´s awareness because, each time a person "paid" to receive sexual gratification, he / she was prostituting another person and the scripture warns us too well about it:
Lev 19:29 "Do not profane your daughter by making her a prostitute, lest the land fall into prostitution and the land become full of depravity.
T
I was going to let you slide on a most of our discourse.
Your personal attacks and your pride and smug attitude towards anyone that is obviously more spiritually mature than you and then your heated and immediate dismissal of them as being legalists, old fashioned, and cruel, PROVE you are a carnal baby christian that is not getting their way.
You cry out you are a Christian yet attack anyone that appears to try to get you to come to full age spiritually or has different thoughts or beliefs than you do. The one statement you made which absolutely screams who you are in your walk was:
The fact is young man, Jesus did exactly what you said you have no time to do yourself. He spent for more time worrying about others and not making them stumble, than he ever was concerned what life was throwing at him. In case you were not paying attention, Life was throwing Jesus under the bus. As you spiritually mature you will begin to understand life is not about you, its about him and how he can use you to reach others.
I do not dislike you or think anything bad about you even though your statements to me were hurtful, stupid and foolish.
I expect to get pooped on by baby carnal Christians, and love them despite themselves.
I know a lot of Christians like you, that once they spiritually mature, lay down the alcohol almost immediately, because it add no value to them anymore and don't need it to face what life seems to be throwing at them.
Your personal attacks and your pride and smug attitude towards anyone that is obviously more spiritually mature than you and then your heated and immediate dismissal of them as being legalists, old fashioned, and cruel, PROVE you are a carnal baby christian that is not getting their way.
You cry out you are a Christian yet attack anyone that appears to try to get you to come to full age spiritually or has different thoughts or beliefs than you do. The one statement you made which absolutely screams who you are in your walk was:
The fact is young man, Jesus did exactly what you said you have no time to do yourself. He spent for more time worrying about others and not making them stumble, than he ever was concerned what life was throwing at him. In case you were not paying attention, Life was throwing Jesus under the bus. As you spiritually mature you will begin to understand life is not about you, its about him and how he can use you to reach others.
I do not dislike you or think anything bad about you even though your statements to me were hurtful, stupid and foolish.
I expect to get pooped on by baby carnal Christians, and love them despite themselves.
I know a lot of Christians like you, that once they spiritually mature, lay down the alcohol almost immediately, because it add no value to them anymore and don't need it to face what life seems to be throwing at them.
For the sake of discussion, can you demonstrate where it is written in the Book of the Prophet where it states that he shall be called a 'Nazarene' as referenced in Matthew 2:23?
[And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. Matt 2:23]
So is Noe a different person from Noah?
[But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matt 24:37]
So is Eias the same person as Elijah?
[Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Mal 4:5]
[And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Matt 17:11-12 ]
Or does this story in 1 Kings 17:20-22;
20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
differ from this story in Luke 8:49-5549 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
[And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. Matt 2:23]
So is Noe a different person from Noah?
[But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matt 24:37]
So is Eias the same person as Elijah?
[Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Mal 4:5]
[And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Matt 17:11-12 ]
Or does this story in 1 Kings 17:20-22;
20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
differ from this story in Luke 8:49-5549 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
L
That's because "unfermented wine" did not exist. What you are talking about is grape juice which was not available until the 19th Century.
When you squeeze grapes, you end up with a mixture of grape juice and yeast. Fermentation begins immediately. Within a day or two it will become 100% wine.
In recent history people have been revising the bible to fit into a temperance movement type Jesus that didn't drink alcohol. Alcohol was part of the culture back then. Alcohol was necessary for life, in fact. It was one of the few sources of vitamin C for common people all year long. It was safe to drink, as opposed to filthy water.
Jesus drank wine at the last supper. There was no unfermented grape juice available during passover. The only way the last supper could have involved grape juice is if Jesus went out to a vineyard at harvest time, squeezed some grapes and drank them immediately.
When you squeeze grapes, you end up with a mixture of grape juice and yeast. Fermentation begins immediately. Within a day or two it will become 100% wine.
In recent history people have been revising the bible to fit into a temperance movement type Jesus that didn't drink alcohol. Alcohol was part of the culture back then. Alcohol was necessary for life, in fact. It was one of the few sources of vitamin C for common people all year long. It was safe to drink, as opposed to filthy water.
Jesus drank wine at the last supper. There was no unfermented grape juice available during passover. The only way the last supper could have involved grape juice is if Jesus went out to a vineyard at harvest time, squeezed some grapes and drank them immediately.
T
I cannot get behind anything you are saying, because you are simply revising the word of God to fit your particular modernistic theological views and then set up a straw man thread asking if understanding the Greek and Hebrew instead of English is really correct.
In your study of Hosea did your conclusion include Hosea 3?
Then said the Lord unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the Lord toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine. [SUP]2 [/SUP]So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.
I think Hosea 3 makes it very clear that God Hosea to marry Gomer, who was a literal harlot. This chapter is also a beautiful picture of what Jesus did for us.
But in order to get that revelation you need to go past Hosea 1.2 and stop suggesting what the Bible says is not really at all what the Bible says, based on English speaking and English translating pathway to understanding.
Whether you really see it or not, you are spending more time discrediting God's word than understanding God's word.
In your study of Hosea did your conclusion include Hosea 3?
Then said the Lord unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the Lord toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine. [SUP]2 [/SUP]So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.
I think Hosea 3 makes it very clear that God Hosea to marry Gomer, who was a literal harlot. This chapter is also a beautiful picture of what Jesus did for us.
But in order to get that revelation you need to go past Hosea 1.2 and stop suggesting what the Bible says is not really at all what the Bible says, based on English speaking and English translating pathway to understanding.
Whether you really see it or not, you are spending more time discrediting God's word than understanding God's word.
How Are Nonalcoholic Beer and Wine Made? - Nagging Question - Food News ,,,,,how did they do this back then?
This grape juice nonsense is both historically and contextually invalid. The possible teetotaling agenda behind it resemblance much the resentment against alcohol found in Islamic culture. To say that believers in Christ must abstain 100% from alcohol is but a commandment of men. The Bible does not forbid it. You can enjoy it in moderation, but drunkenness is of course not allowed. And, of course again, do not use it at all together with people who had history of drinking problems.