Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[lisa79]

It is written...

Isaiah 5:20-24
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel."

Your the one calling good evil! I dont care what the wine was composed of. I believe what was said and he said it was good, the best! Im not qualified to judge Christs wine. So I will take his word for it but YOU are calling good evil. He sent it over to one who was qualified (symbolic of the Father) His mother did not said "make welch's grape juice" or "trick them" she said "wine"

 

[Ukorin]

In mild consumption, alcohol promotes charity, uplifted spirits, release of worldly cares, and brotherly love.
In heavy consumption, alcohol promotes selfishness, depression, carelessness, and lust/violence.

 

[Agricola]

With this post you are encouraging people to consume alcoholic beverages for the promotion of good health. Are you trying to tell others that we can not promote good health in other ways without consuming alcoholic beverages? The risk of consuming alcohol long term is not as beneficial as you think nor short term with how it can effect the neurotransmitters between brain cells and put the individual in a state that can compromise conviction, lower restraints and lead to making bad decisions and misguided judgments. The earlier in life this is promoted the greater effect is has short and long term and that would involve the soul and body of a person.

You sure are putting words in my mouth, did I say that you should do nothing but drink to maintain your health, of course not. Anything in moderation is fine, eat too many salty snacks you get ill, eat too much fatty foods you risk heart attacks, eat too much in general you put on weight. DO not eat enough, you waste away, do not drink enough water it can kill you and so on.

If you read what I said, it was drinking just a glass with every meal, drink too much and you get drunk, drink too much over time and it will rot your liver.

If you have problems with addictions then abstain. same with any addiction or temptation.

It is rather simple to understand, but of course if it goes against your own agenda, then of course you will attack it.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Jeremiah 51:39
“When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up,” declares the Lord.

I know that you will claim that there is some kind of reasoning that makes this statement void. But "I will make them drunk...declares the Lord"!!! This is a sign of impending judgment. This is the reason that Jesus gave fermented wine and according to John, He immediately follows with cleansing the Temple.

It is the same as hardening the heart of Pharaoh after he had already hardened his heart on his own.

Jeremiah 51:39 is an act of judgment against Babylon. Has absolutely nothing to do with the chosen of God.

Sort of lines up with Proverbs 31 where Lemuel's mother told him to "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish."

We, as God's people are not "ready to perish." Matter of fact, Jesus said in John 3 that we will "never perish."

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

In mild consumption, alcohol promotes charity, uplifted spirits, release of worldly cares, and brotherly love.
In heavy consumption, alcohol promotes selfishness, depression, carelessness, and lust/violence.

Alcohol promotes charity? That's a new one on me. I've never seen a person drink a beer and all of a sudden get the urge to be charitable. Never happened to me when I was drinking either.

You guys will say anything to defend your booze. smh

 

[Ukorin]

Alcohol promotes charity? That's a new one on me. I've never seen a person drink a beer and all of a sudden get the urge to be charitable. Never happened to me when I was drinking either.

You guys will say anything to defend your booze. smh

It is a common trait. One that you have likely witnessed many times. Have you really never seen anyone give extra after having a drink?!
Why do you think it is customary to offer drinks at the beginning of a meal at a restaurant, and have the payment after the meal? TIPS! Why to bartenders get larger tips after the first round?

This is not even debatable. Why else would the homeless come out to ask for alms as the bars close? They know where to find the generous. They don't ask the sloppy stumblers, but ask the smiling, and find more than loose change in the transaction.

Will you abstain at the Marraige Supper of the Lamb as well?

I do not promote drinking, and I teach against drunkenness and tempting those who are struggling with the temptation of drunkeness,
but I also raise my left eyebrow at those who condemn it altogether.

 

[Grandpa]

Your the one calling good evil! I dont care what the wine was composed of. I believe what was said and he said it was good, the best! Im not qualified to judge Christs wine. So I will take his word for it but YOU are calling good evil. He sent it over to one who was qualified (symbolic of the Father) His mother did not said "make welch's grape juice" or "trick them" she said "wine"

Not too difficult.

Wine is fermented grapes.

If it was something other than this it would have been called something else. Maybe not welch's... But I get what you're saying.


I'm surprised people are still arguing over this. Its kind of like the Catholics arguing that Mary didn't have any more children after Jesus. The bible says it, what is there to argue about? People try to impose their own morals onto what the bible says instead of conforming to the word that is written.


Obviously Jesus didn't consider it a sin to drink wine, even really good wine, at a wedding. Oh my goodness!! Should we all go say 100 hail marys? lol. don't really go say 100 hail marys. I was kidding.

Is alcohol, wine in particular, an un-clean food? (drink) I guess its not in my bible. Maybe its in the Message or one of those other ones???

 

[john832]

No, you need to drink more than one glass to be drunk in order to be considered a drunkard. Just as a person needs to murder someone in order to be called a murderer. One glass may not make you a drunkard, but it sure can make a fellow brother to stumble, which is unloving and un-Christ like. For if we do not love the brethren or hate them, then we do not have eternal life abiding within us. The fruits of love must be in a Christian's life because God is love.

I would imagine one plateful would make a brother stumble into gluttony also. Same (fallacious) logic.

 

[Jason0047]

You are correct, He didn't contribute or lead people into sin, they do this all on their own. God gave us fire also, some people keep warm with it and some commit to burning homes and people alive in it. Nope, God don't contribute or lead people into sin. It's good to tell people the dangers of sin and how it can creep up on us by opening the door to it, but alcohol in and of it self can be a blessing if you are wise enough to see the blessing in it.

Fire is not the same thing as the miracle that Jesus Christ had done at the Wedding of Cana. His miracle was not to show that it was some ordinary every day thing that is a part of His creation. His miracle was to show forth His glory (See John 2:11). It was to symbolize His goodness and how the Jews could not go back to wash themselves in the OT water with the ceremonial washing containers that Jesus used because He replaced it with the non intoxicating wine that represented His pure blood. In fact, the Scriptures talk about the PURE BLOOD of the grape. Hmmm... Why would the Scriptures say that? Also, folks here are just ignorant of the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. In the Old Testament, you were not allowed to eat certain animals because they were unclean. But under the New Testament, God told Peter in a vision that he could kill and eat all these other delicious little guys. It's the same with wine. Before the cross, true believing Jews (Who followed the Holy Scriptures) could not drink strong intoxicating beverages. For there are many, many, many warnings against drinking strong alcohol in the OT. Are you simply unaware of these passages?

But yes, it is true. We have a liberty in Christ in the NT, we can drink soberly and in moderation within the privacy of our own home. But this liberty did not exist before the cross, though.

 

[Jason0047]

I would imagine one plateful would make a brother stumble into gluttony also. Same (fallacious) logic.

There are several terms used to describe those believers views on alcohol. I am an Abstentationist. Many Abstentationists believe that believers do have a liberty in Christ Jesus (after the cross and not before the cross) in drinking soberly and in moderation within the privacy of their own place (So as not to make your brother to stumble). However, Abstentionists also realize that there are dangers in drinking and so they encourage (Not command) believers to walk the higher road in abstaining in their love and devotion to Jesus Christ. Again, this is not a Law or a Command. But merely a call in love. But believers do have a liberty in Christ Jesus under the New Testament that did not exist before the cross. We can now also unclean meats, too. This also did not exist before the cross. But in the OT, they did not have the luxury of eating and drinking whatever they wanted. For in the OT there are many many many warnings against drinking intoxicating beverages. But while we may do so under the NT, we cannot drink so as to get drunk and we cannot drink so as to potentially make our brother to stumble, though.

 

[Jason0047]

Not too difficult.

Wine is fermented grapes.

If it was something other than this it would have been called something else. Maybe not welch's... But I get what you're saying.


I'm surprised people are still arguing over this. Its kind of like the Catholics arguing that Mary didn't have any more children after Jesus. The bible says it, what is there to argue about? People try to impose their own morals onto what the bible says instead of conforming to the word that is written.


Obviously Jesus didn't consider it a sin to drink wine, even really good wine, at a wedding. Oh my goodness!! Should we all go say 100 hail marys? lol. don't really go say 100 hail marys. I was kidding.

Is alcohol, wine in particular, an un-clean food? (drink) I guess its not in my bible. Maybe its in the Message or one of those other ones???

When wine or the fresh juice that comes out of the cluster of the grape (After is first crushed) it is indeed a fermenting substance. But that does not mean that it immediately always goes thru the complete fermentation process within seconds. That takes time. Jesus did not cook up some fermentation process miracle which is a process invented by man and not God. God creates and gives things as they naturally are. Also, there are many warnings in the OT against intoxicating beverages.

Although technically wine is naturally fermented when it is first squeezed out of the grapes, it is not fully fermented yet. This is why it can be called "Unfermented Wine."

However, true "Unfermented Wine" would be Welch's Grape Juice. It is a juice where one boils wine so as to stop or hault the natural fermentation process that is found within every batch of freshly crushed grapes.

So, while I believe Jesus did create wine that is slightly fermented initially, it was not fully formented wine.

 

[lisa79]

Not too difficult.

Wine is fermented grapes.

If it was something other than this it would have been called something else. Maybe not welch's... But I get what you're saying.


I'm surprised people are still arguing over this. Its kind of like the Catholics arguing that Mary didn't have any more children after Jesus. The bible says it, what is there to argue about? People try to impose their own morals onto what the bible says instead of conforming to the word that is written.


Obviously Jesus didn't consider it a sin to drink wine, even really good wine, at a wedding. Oh my goodness!! Should we all go say 100 hail marys? lol. don't really go say 100 hail marys. I was kidding.

Is alcohol, wine in particular, an un-clean food? (drink) I guess its not in my bible. Maybe its in the Message or one of those other ones???

I agree the argument is insane! It seems like Jason thinks he has superior knowledge and is walking a higher road.....roaring like a Lion but there is only who is above and superior. The true Lion Jesus Christ.

I am not trying to conveince Jason or the few that agree with this nonsense of the alcohol's content but only that he nor you nor I am qualified to judge. We are the servants in this miracle. We have to stick to the facts. The wine was good. He can not claim ignorance because he has been told and warned of what the wine symbolises and is calling good evil. Its mans over indulgence that can make alcohol evil. This is a wedding party! Eat, drink and be merry.

Where you called to be the hall monitor of this event? NO...

This miracle was designed to free us and telling us to let God judge. Only He is worthy. To trust God! The wine is good! Have some faith and if God says its good believe!

 

[Jason0047]

I agree the argument is insane! It seems like Jason thinks he has superior knowledge and is walking a higher road.....roaring like a Lion but there is only who is above and superior. The true Lion Jesus Christ.

So you are calling me the devil because I am encouraging people to walk in righteousness (out of love and not as some kind of Commandment)? The Bible warns against those who have a form of Godliness but yet are disobedient by walking in their own lusts (Please read 2 Timothy chapter 3).

I am not trying to conveince Jason or the few that agree with this nonsense of the alcohol's content but only that he nor you nor I am qualified to judge. We are the servants in this miracle. We have to stick to the facts. The wine was good. He can not claim ignorance because he has been told and warned of what the wine symbolises and is calling good evil. Its mans over indulgence that can make alcohol evil. This is a wedding party! Eat, drink and be merry.

This miracle was designed to free us and telling us to let God judge. Only He is worthy. To trust God! The wine is good! Have some faith and if God says its good believe!

Also, while we do have a liberty in Christ Jesus to drink soberly and in moderation within the privacy of our place. Such a liberty did not exist before the cross. Jews could not eat unclean animals and drink intoxicating beverages in a sober manner like NT believers can. You are completely ignoring all the OT warnings against alcohol so as to justify a belief about God that does not exist. Are you unaware of the OT warnings about alcohol? I mean, think about it. Daniel refused the kings wine and meat so as not to be defiled (Daniel 1:8). What was wrong with the meat and the wine?

 

[lisa79]

So you are calling me the devil because I am encouraging people to walk in righteousness (out of love and not as some kind of Commandment)? The Bible warns against those who have a form of Godliness but yet are disobedient by walking in their own lusts (Please read 2 Timothy chapter 3).



Also, while we do have a liberty in Christ Jesus to drink soberly and in moderation within the privacy of our place. Such a liberty did not exist before the cross. Jews could not eat unclean animals and drink intoxicating beverages in a sober manner like NT believers can. You are completely ignoring all the OT warnings against alcohol so as to justify a belief about God that does not exist. Are you unaware of the OT warnings about alcohol? I mean, think about it. Daniel refused the kings wine and meat so as not to be defiled (Daniel 1:8). What was wrong with the meat and the wine?

Nothing... the problem was with the man. Why can't you drink or eat without judging? Because you don't trust Gods word but you sure do trust mans word as long as it promotes your agenda.

 

[Jason0047]

Your the one calling good evil! I dont care what the wine was composed of. I believe what was said and he said it was good, the best! Im not qualified to judge Christs wine. So I will take his word for it but YOU are calling good evil. He sent it over to one who was qualified (symbolic of the Father) His mother did not said "make welch's grape juice" or "trick them" she said "wine"

Uh huh, I take it you stopped reading at the part of the passage that says,

"Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink"

Woe unto them. Doesn't sound like a good thing for those who are mighty to drink wine and for those who mingle (make) strong drink. See, the Bible condemns the drinking of intoxicating beverages BEFORE the cross. Yes, we can drinking intoxicating beverages AFTER the cross, but we cannot get intoxicated or drunk off of them. We also cannot drink in such a way that would lead our brothers and sisters to potentially stumble either. We have liberty in Christ. But we are not to let our good be evil spoken of, though.

 

[Jason0047]

Nothing... the problem was with the man. Why can't you drink or eat without judging? Because you don't trust Gods word but you sure do trust mans word as long as it promotes your agenda.

I am not saying that YOU cannot drink soberly and in moderation within the privacy of your own place. Christian can drink today. It is lawful. But they just can't get drunk, though. But before the cross, this liberty did not exist. Before the cross they could not eat unclean animals. Today Christians can eat unclean animals. This is why Daniel did not eat of the King's meat and drink of the King's wine so as not to be defiled in Daniel 1:8. Things were different back in the Old Testament.

 

[Ukorin]

When it is written "God does no sin", it means that God is not responsible for sin, and nothing that God does can be considered as sin.
It does not mean that God is limited to the the rules He set for man!
God told Abraham to kill his son, and it was not sin,
Yet if I tell a man to kill his son, it is surely a sin.
God is not bound by your view of ethics and morals,
He is above and beyond your comprehension, and all He does works for good.


Let me move this here:

1 Cor 2:13-14

Rather than submitting to the Word, this one needs to add to it for it to make sense to him.
The Word seems like foolishness to him, so he revises it.

"It wasn't wine, but grape juice"
"God doesn't really know our future decisions, because that denies free-will."
"She wasn't a prostitute, but an idolater, and she repented of that before they got married, because God wouldn't tell someone to marry an unrepentant sinner"

Keep editing the Word, and you will find your name edited in the Big Book upstairs.

​"For who has the mind to give instruction to he Lord?"
Will you try to give God advice when you meet Him?
Like "you should have been more clear about the wine thing" or "you really shouldn't have told Hosea to marry a sinful woman, that was a bad idea. She should have repented first".

 

[Ukorin]

I am not saying that YOU cannot drink soberly and in moderation within the privacy of your own place. Christian can drink today. It is lawful. But they just can't get drunk, though. But before the cross, this liberty did not exist. Before the cross they could not eat unclean animals. Today Christians can eat unclean animals. This is why Daniel did not eat of the King's meat and drink of the King's wine so as not to be defiled in Daniel 1:8. Things were different back in the Old Testament.

Daniel was set apart even from his fellow Jews.
You seem to think that alcohol was against the Law of Moses. Quote it then.

Daniel abstained from the meat and wine and pastries because they were the king's, not because they were alcoholic in nature or against the Law. It was out of separation.

 

[lisa79]

When wine or the fresh juice that comes out of the cluster of the grape (After is first crushed) it is indeed a fermenting substance. But that does not mean that it immediately always goes thru the complete fermentation process within seconds. That takes time. Jesus did not cook up some fermentation process miracle which is a process invented by man and not God. God creates and gives things as they naturally are. Also, there are many warnings in the OT against intoxicating beverages.

Although technically wine is naturally fermented when it is first squeezed out of the grapes, it is not fully fermented yet. This is why it can be called "Unfermented Wine."

However, true "Unfermented Wine" would be Welch's Grape Juice. It is a juice where one boils wine so as to stop or hault the natural fermentation process that is found within every batch of freshly crushed grapes.

So, while I believe Jesus did create wine that is slightly fermented initially, it was not fully formented wine.

The miracle was that He did the impossible and aged the wine to perfection on instant! God is not bound by time! All things are possible with Him... don't you see that we are made perfect by His hand as well and we are judged how we judge others....."judge NOT" He said DONT DO IT...yet you continue and you are judging yourself. I wish you could see this.


I don't understand this whole "he's in a KJV only cult" stuff but I can tell you. No weapon formed against you will prosper. Other versions have prospered! They are not weapons but tools! Every language has a purpose. God speaks to everyone in a way they can understand.

 

[Ukorin]

Uh huh, I take it you stopped reading at the part of the passage that says,

"Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink"

Woe unto them. Doesn't sound like a good thing for those who are mighty to drink wine and for those who mingle (make) strong drink. See, the Bible condemns the drinking of intoxicating beverages BEFORE the cross. Yes, we can drinking intoxicating beverages AFTER the cross, but we cannot get intoxicated or drunk off of them. We also cannot drink in such a way that would lead our brothers and sisters to potentially stumble either. We have liberty in Christ. But we are not to let our good be evil spoken of, though.

You miss the point of the verse. You would understand if you read ANY other translation.
The KJV is correct, but you miss out on what it means because you don't even understand the KJV.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks,