Did God Tell Hosea to Marry a Prostitute?
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God did not make a covenant with a sinful people. Israel was not initially sinful and they will one day as a nation accept the Messiah shortly before His return. Also, there is the 144, 000 in the End Times, too. So God has chosen wisely. In addition, God paying the price for the sins of the entire world would not be a Covenant (If that's what you're thinking). Folks can only enter into the New Covenant by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ.
Is this in response to me? I'm not saying God does evil, or that we should do evil. I'm asking whether YOU think God sins by uniting himself to sinful mankind, or not, and why?
Because, as I see it, you have two options, and these are historically the two options espoused by Jews and Christians at least as far back as Jerome. Either, you assume the details of the life of Hosea are true, and he married a promiscuous woman, perhaps with some caveats, but maintaining a more or less historical/literal reading of the text (Eusebius, Theodor, Cyril of Alexandria). OR, you conclude that the story is allegorical, either purely a literary device (Jerome, Didymus the Blind), or consisting entirely within a vision seen by Hosea (Calvin, Origen), and were not literal commands given to Hosea to conduct in real life.
The argument that whoredom does not mean whoredom in the sense of adultery/promiscuity is simply not one that I have ever seen seriously argued by anyone, past or present. It fact, the Targum translations by Jews of the Old Testament into Aramaic basically redact the portions of the first chapters of Hosea that talk about his marriages, precisely because they didn't like the idea of a prophet being told to marry a promiscuous woman. They knew exactly what it meant, and basically tried to sweep it under the rug.
Because, as I see it, you have two options, and these are historically the two options espoused by Jews and Christians at least as far back as Jerome. Either, you assume the details of the life of Hosea are true, and he married a promiscuous woman, perhaps with some caveats, but maintaining a more or less historical/literal reading of the text (Eusebius, Theodor, Cyril of Alexandria). OR, you conclude that the story is allegorical, either purely a literary device (Jerome, Didymus the Blind), or consisting entirely within a vision seen by Hosea (Calvin, Origen), and were not literal commands given to Hosea to conduct in real life.
The argument that whoredom does not mean whoredom in the sense of adultery/promiscuity is simply not one that I have ever seen seriously argued by anyone, past or present. It fact, the Targum translations by Jews of the Old Testament into Aramaic basically redact the portions of the first chapters of Hosea that talk about his marriages, precisely because they didn't like the idea of a prophet being told to marry a promiscuous woman. They knew exactly what it meant, and basically tried to sweep it under the rug.
Are you saying Abraham was sinless? Or Moses? Did not God still give his commandments to the people even as they worshipped a golden calf, that it might go well for them in the land to which they went? Did God err when he promised never to visit the destruction of the flood on humanity again? Would he have been better off just killing everyone? Did God realise his mistake when Noah got drunk in his tent? Or did he already know what was going to happen before it happened?
It doesn't matter whether someone was initially sinful or not - the reality is they are, and always, without exception will be, as God knows. And I hope you're not going to argue the 144,000 are somehow magically sinless in and of themselves?
Of course, as Paul also aptly points out, God did not wait for us to become sinless before dying for us. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Now you're quite correct, one does not enter into that rest ultimately without repenting, but the point is that is only possible because God made the first move.
All of which is to say - how is God's faithfulness to unfaithful mankind specifically different to Hosea's faithfulness to unfaithful Gomer? In saying a command to make Hosea marry a prostitute is sinful, why are you not also saying that God errs in pursuing sinful mankind? The only possible person you can argue God ever made a covenant with that didn't sin was Adam, and that didn't last all that long.
It doesn't matter whether someone was initially sinful or not - the reality is they are, and always, without exception will be, as God knows. And I hope you're not going to argue the 144,000 are somehow magically sinless in and of themselves?
Of course, as Paul also aptly points out, God did not wait for us to become sinless before dying for us. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Now you're quite correct, one does not enter into that rest ultimately without repenting, but the point is that is only possible because God made the first move.
All of which is to say - how is God's faithfulness to unfaithful mankind specifically different to Hosea's faithfulness to unfaithful Gomer? In saying a command to make Hosea marry a prostitute is sinful, why are you not also saying that God errs in pursuing sinful mankind? The only possible person you can argue God ever made a covenant with that didn't sin was Adam, and that didn't last all that long.
i believe the text indicates He was to marry a woman with a reputation that preceded her, as a sign.
i believe that's shocking. it's lawful for Hosea to marry any Israelite woman not already married. there are wiser choices and more foolish ones for a wife.. and shocking for a prophet to make such a foolish choice; surely a sign!
people with respect for a prophet as a righteous man would expect that if he had a wife she would be a virtuous woman, and be surprised, incredulous and upset to find quite the opposite. some might even, out of respect for the prophet, go to great lengths to justify & explain away his wife's bad reputation. others might praise the patience and mercy of the prophet to pity and love such a woman, and lament the sorrow and shame her sin surely brought to him.
exactly like JHWH and Israel.
i believe Christ on the cross prayed that unrepentant people be forgiven, because they did not understand what they were doing. i believe God shows mercy on who He wishes to show mercy.
i believe that's shocking. it's lawful for Hosea to marry any Israelite woman not already married. there are wiser choices and more foolish ones for a wife.. and shocking for a prophet to make such a foolish choice; surely a sign!
people with respect for a prophet as a righteous man would expect that if he had a wife she would be a virtuous woman, and be surprised, incredulous and upset to find quite the opposite. some might even, out of respect for the prophet, go to great lengths to justify & explain away his wife's bad reputation. others might praise the patience and mercy of the prophet to pity and love such a woman, and lament the sorrow and shame her sin surely brought to him.
exactly like JHWH and Israel.
i believe Christ on the cross prayed that unrepentant people be forgiven, because they did not understand what they were doing. i believe God shows mercy on who He wishes to show mercy.
No. God does not show the mercy of salvation on people who do not repent. Never happened. It is one of the requirements for salvation. God does not join believers and unbelievers together either. For there are two kingdoms a person can serve today. Either God's Kingdom or the devil's kingdom (Which is made of people who are unbelievers). For what fellowship does light have with darkness? God is good. There is no darkness in Him at all. God is Holy and He only behaves in a Holy manner and requires us to live Holy, too. Nobody just gets mercy handed to them if they are in rebellion against God. That person has to repent and be open to accepting God.
God did not approve of sin or unite with sin or sinful people. God paid the price for our sin. There is a difference. He took on the sins of the entire world and paid the debt in our place so we can receive the free gift of salvation. This was not God approving of sin. This was God canceling out our debt problem so we can allow God or Christ to live within our hearts and lives. So that we could be saved from our sins.
You're right, there is a difference between God taking on sin and approving of sin. So would you agree that God, throughout history, has dealt with sinful people, even having a people for himself that were more often than not completely disobedient, without approving of their sin. Would you also agree that God categorically united these two ideas (covenant with people who are themselves not fit for covenant, while utterly denouncing sin) through the work of the cross?
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
(Luke 23:24)
were they not forgiven? i rather think Christ's prayers were heard.
Jesus also gave the apostles the authority to forgive, not demanding repentance:
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
(John 20:21-23)
in Luke 7:36-50, a "sinful woman" washed Christ's feet with tears and perfume. it's not recorded that He asked her to repent. He told her her sins were forgiven. did He expect her to repent? would that please Him? surely yes! but did He make it a prerequisite?
and this:
Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
(Matthew 9:2)
it is not mentioned that this man repented - in fact not even whether he had come to Christ of his own will!
here John tells us that God is faithful to forgive and cleanse us if we confess our sin - he does not even mention repentance! He says God will cleanse us, not that we must cleanse ourselves!
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1 John 1:9)
the Lord's salvation is even greater than i can comprehend! am i saying we shouldn't repent? of course not! do i repent in order to gain salvation? no, i believe on the name of Jesus and confess my sin before Him, and confess Him before mankind, and for this i am saved - because He has saved me, i repent! He changes me into a creature that cannot abide in sin! into a creature who from love turns away from sin, wanting to please my master rather than myself!
and Nebudchanezzar, the Lord called His servant long before that man ever came to a knowledge of the true Living God.
also from the prophets we know He can use a people more wicked than Israel to chastise her. is it a wonder that He can use an unclean thing to give her a sign of her uncleanness?
your point about not being yoked with wickedness, about how light does not have any genuine fellowship with darkness, is exactly the point that Hosea, if you would just take him at his word, is making as a sign to Israel about her wickedness, and how they made it abominable that the Lord's name should be associated with their practices.
but what you might insist, that Hosea never take this woman into his home, and/or divorce this woman immediately, though he would be completely justified to take this and would appeal best to the appearance of righteousness, is exactly the opposite of what he did and what God did, by not forsaking Israel entirely, and by purchasing her with the blood of His Son, even also purchasing us for a bride even though at the moment He did it, we were all unrepentant, all whores, all idolaters, all utterly unworthy of Him.
for Gomer to accept Hosea as her husband, she had to believe that he forgave her. Love doesn't keep a record of wrongs, i hear.
i just really think that the sign is complete and there is much more truth and glory to God's name to believe that Gomer was exactly what the text calls her. what we've really got to go on is Hosea's words, and as her husband, i think he knew her better than we do. probably speculating about his wife's virtue is rude, beyond what the Spirit saw fit for him to reveal in his book!
And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
(Luke 23:24)
were they not forgiven? i rather think Christ's prayers were heard.
Jesus also gave the apostles the authority to forgive, not demanding repentance:
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
(John 20:21-23)
in Luke 7:36-50, a "sinful woman" washed Christ's feet with tears and perfume. it's not recorded that He asked her to repent. He told her her sins were forgiven. did He expect her to repent? would that please Him? surely yes! but did He make it a prerequisite?
and this:
Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
(Matthew 9:2)
it is not mentioned that this man repented - in fact not even whether he had come to Christ of his own will!
here John tells us that God is faithful to forgive and cleanse us if we confess our sin - he does not even mention repentance! He says God will cleanse us, not that we must cleanse ourselves!
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1 John 1:9)
the Lord's salvation is even greater than i can comprehend! am i saying we shouldn't repent? of course not! do i repent in order to gain salvation? no, i believe on the name of Jesus and confess my sin before Him, and confess Him before mankind, and for this i am saved - because He has saved me, i repent! He changes me into a creature that cannot abide in sin! into a creature who from love turns away from sin, wanting to please my master rather than myself!
and Nebudchanezzar, the Lord called His servant long before that man ever came to a knowledge of the true Living God.
also from the prophets we know He can use a people more wicked than Israel to chastise her. is it a wonder that He can use an unclean thing to give her a sign of her uncleanness?
your point about not being yoked with wickedness, about how light does not have any genuine fellowship with darkness, is exactly the point that Hosea, if you would just take him at his word, is making as a sign to Israel about her wickedness, and how they made it abominable that the Lord's name should be associated with their practices.
but what you might insist, that Hosea never take this woman into his home, and/or divorce this woman immediately, though he would be completely justified to take this and would appeal best to the appearance of righteousness, is exactly the opposite of what he did and what God did, by not forsaking Israel entirely, and by purchasing her with the blood of His Son, even also purchasing us for a bride even though at the moment He did it, we were all unrepentant, all whores, all idolaters, all utterly unworthy of Him.
for Gomer to accept Hosea as her husband, she had to believe that he forgave her. Love doesn't keep a record of wrongs, i hear.
i just really think that the sign is complete and there is much more truth and glory to God's name to believe that Gomer was exactly what the text calls her. what we've really got to go on is Hosea's words, and as her husband, i think he knew her better than we do. probably speculating about his wife's virtue is rude, beyond what the Spirit saw fit for him to reveal in his book!
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No, they never took it away.
But what do you think they did do?
They cancelled it, that it would not be held against them.
The New Covenant is so much more!
Those under it will be viewed in the righteousness of Christ!
Not simply losing sin, but gaining righteousness!
What does any of this have to do with Hosea?
Everything!
Just as God told Hosea to marry a sinful women,
So the Father took Israel as a Bride,
And also had His Son take the Church as a Bride.
NEITHER were worthy
Yet both are chosen, and MADE worthy.
Salvation does not rest upon your shoulders, my child,
But upon the grace of our Lord.
Just as He told Hosea to go and seek out the unfaithful woman, and purchase her back,
So He seeks us out when we stray.
We do not come back to Him,
But He to us.
As Paul said, this is no excuse to keep on sinning,
NO it is the opposite!
It is inspiration to love our Lord back!
And stay with Him in faithfulness.
But what do you think they did do?
They cancelled it, that it would not be held against them.
The New Covenant is so much more!
Those under it will be viewed in the righteousness of Christ!
Not simply losing sin, but gaining righteousness!
What does any of this have to do with Hosea?
Everything!
Just as God told Hosea to marry a sinful women,
So the Father took Israel as a Bride,
And also had His Son take the Church as a Bride.
NEITHER were worthy
Yet both are chosen, and MADE worthy.
Salvation does not rest upon your shoulders, my child,
But upon the grace of our Lord.
Just as He told Hosea to go and seek out the unfaithful woman, and purchase her back,
So He seeks us out when we stray.
We do not come back to Him,
But He to us.
As Paul said, this is no excuse to keep on sinning,
NO it is the opposite!
It is inspiration to love our Lord back!
And stay with Him in faithfulness.
Hosea did not divorce his wife when she was unfaithful,
he did not lock her out until she came back in repentance.
So God does not wait for us.
He goes to us, convicts our spirit, and BRINGS us back to repentance!
If the woman had died before Hosea found her, would she have not been mourned as his wife? Would she have been considered as not his wife because they were not reunited before her demise?
No!
So in this way, even death does not divorce us from Christ.
he did not lock her out until she came back in repentance.
So God does not wait for us.
He goes to us, convicts our spirit, and BRINGS us back to repentance!
If the woman had died before Hosea found her, would she have not been mourned as his wife? Would she have been considered as not his wife because they were not reunited before her demise?
No!
So in this way, even death does not divorce us from Christ.
They were not saved as a result of Jesus' prayer. Jesus does not just zap people with salvation randomly like it was some kind of ray gun. All people have to repent of their sins and accept Jesus.
No, the disciples don't get to pick people at random to save. If they see someone repent, then they can say they are forgiven. If they see somebody faking it or abiding in sin that leads unto death, they can say they are not forgiven.
Uh, her tears were her repentance. People cry sometimes when they repent. This happens when they are broken in heart with God and are sorry for their sins. Her tears were evidence of that fact.
Just knew the man's thoughts. This evident because in these passages it says He was able to read the Pharisees thoughts. So it is logical conclusion Jesus forgave him because he sought forgiveness. Nobody is forgiven if they are not seeking forgiveness and or not looking for God to save them.
Confession is a big part of repentance. When a person confesses their sin (for real) they are open and honest enought with God that they are not intending to sin again.
This verse proves that we HAVE to be broken before God and admit our faults before Him in order to be cleansed of all unrighteousness or sin. Jesus does not zap people at random with forgiveness (Who are not seeking it).
Your putting the cart before the horse. You are not saved until you repented of your sins. The Judgment of Nineveh was not averted until they repented.
Nebudchanezzar was not saved when he was worshiping pagan gods.
No, read Deuteronomy 30:19 and Ezekiel 18:24.
It doesn't fit the parallel. Israel was not an unfaithful nations to begin with. So that means Hosea was not unfaithful to begin with. If you are going to make a parallel, you have to follow it exactly and not how you want to see it.
Keeping no record of wrongs has to do with forgiving others people when they do bad things against you. Hosea would not have married a prostitute because he later divorces her for being unfaithful. This is when she became a prostitute.
I think folks are wrongfully being influenced by Modern Translations. They seen the word "prostitute" in their Bible readings over and over and it has drilled into their minds that this is the truth. But it is not the truth. The KJV more accurately renders this passage. Gomer was a wife of whoredoms because the land created great whoredom (idolatry), departing from the Lord. The land or people were not prostitutes.
Again, I will ask. Would you marry a prostitute today if you believe God was telling you to do that? What about gay person? What about someone who killed all her ex husbands in their sleep?
No, the disciples don't get to pick people at random to save. If they see someone repent, then they can say they are forgiven. If they see somebody faking it or abiding in sin that leads unto death, they can say they are not forgiven.
Uh, her tears were her repentance. People cry sometimes when they repent. This happens when they are broken in heart with God and are sorry for their sins. Her tears were evidence of that fact.
Just knew the man's thoughts. This evident because in these passages it says He was able to read the Pharisees thoughts. So it is logical conclusion Jesus forgave him because he sought forgiveness. Nobody is forgiven if they are not seeking forgiveness and or not looking for God to save them.
Confession is a big part of repentance. When a person confesses their sin (for real) they are open and honest enought with God that they are not intending to sin again.
This verse proves that we HAVE to be broken before God and admit our faults before Him in order to be cleansed of all unrighteousness or sin. Jesus does not zap people at random with forgiveness (Who are not seeking it).
Your putting the cart before the horse. You are not saved until you repented of your sins. The Judgment of Nineveh was not averted until they repented.
Nebudchanezzar was not saved when he was worshiping pagan gods.
No, read Deuteronomy 30:19 and Ezekiel 18:24.
It doesn't fit the parallel. Israel was not an unfaithful nations to begin with. So that means Hosea was not unfaithful to begin with. If you are going to make a parallel, you have to follow it exactly and not how you want to see it.
Keeping no record of wrongs has to do with forgiving others people when they do bad things against you. Hosea would not have married a prostitute because he later divorces her for being unfaithful. This is when she became a prostitute.
I think folks are wrongfully being influenced by Modern Translations. They seen the word "prostitute" in their Bible readings over and over and it has drilled into their minds that this is the truth. But it is not the truth. The KJV more accurately renders this passage. Gomer was a wife of whoredoms because the land created great whoredom (idolatry), departing from the Lord. The land or people were not prostitutes.
Again, I will ask. Would you marry a prostitute today if you believe God was telling you to do that? What about gay person? What about someone who killed all her ex husbands in their sleep?
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Probably not, but I am a poor servant. If God asked me to do anything, I should be willing to do it.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“But as for you, take wheat, barley, beans, lentils, millet and spelt, put them in one vessel and make them into bread for yourself; you shall eat it according to the number of the days that you lie on your side, three hundred and ninety days. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Your food which you eat shall be twenty shekels a day by weight; you shall eat it from time to time. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The water you drink shall be the sixth part of a hin by measure; you shall drink it from time to time. [SUP]12 [/SUP]You shall eat it as a barley cake, having baked it in their sight over human dung.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the Lord said, “Thus will the sons of Israel eat their bread unclean among the nations where I will banish them.” [SUP]14 [/SUP]But I said, “Ah, Lord God!....I don't want to marry a prostitute and especially not another man!!!! Let me eat bread cooked over dung, instead.
And just so no one gets confused, the green, italicized is my application to Jason's comment.
1 Kings 20[SUP]35 [/SUP]Now a certain man of the sons of the prophets said to another by the word of the Lord, “Please strike me.” But the man refused to strike him. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Then he said to him, “Because you have not listened to the voice of the Lord, behold, as soon as you have departed from me, a lion will kill you.” And as soon as he had departed from him a lion found him and killed him.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to strike a prophet, but I also don't want to be killed by a lion either.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“But as for you, take wheat, barley, beans, lentils, millet and spelt, put them in one vessel and make them into bread for yourself; you shall eat it according to the number of the days that you lie on your side, three hundred and ninety days. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Your food which you eat shall be twenty shekels a day by weight; you shall eat it from time to time. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The water you drink shall be the sixth part of a hin by measure; you shall drink it from time to time. [SUP]12 [/SUP]You shall eat it as a barley cake, having baked it in their sight over human dung.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the Lord said, “Thus will the sons of Israel eat their bread unclean among the nations where I will banish them.” [SUP]14 [/SUP]But I said, “Ah, Lord God!....I don't want to marry a prostitute and especially not another man!!!! Let me eat bread cooked over dung, instead.
And just so no one gets confused, the green, italicized is my application to Jason's comment.
1 Kings 20[SUP]35 [/SUP]Now a certain man of the sons of the prophets said to another by the word of the Lord, “Please strike me.” But the man refused to strike him. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Then he said to him, “Because you have not listened to the voice of the Lord, behold, as soon as you have departed from me, a lion will kill you.” And as soon as he had departed from him a lion found him and killed him.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to strike a prophet, but I also don't want to be killed by a lion either.
No, Hosea chooses to put his wife away because of her unfaithfulness,
"Say ye unto your brethren, Ammi, and to your sisters, Ruhama, Plead with your mother, plead; for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband..." (Hosea 2:1-3).
In other words, the time of Gomer's unfaithfulness (Whereby Hosea divorces her) is when she became a prostitute. It doesn't make sense for Hosea to marry a prostitute and then later divorce her for being unfaithful knowing that she was unfaithful to begin with. It doesn't make any sense.
"Say ye unto your brethren, Ammi, and to your sisters, Ruhama, Plead with your mother, plead; for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband..." (Hosea 2:1-3).
In other words, the time of Gomer's unfaithfulness (Whereby Hosea divorces her) is when she became a prostitute. It doesn't make sense for Hosea to marry a prostitute and then later divorce her for being unfaithful knowing that she was unfaithful to begin with. It doesn't make any sense.