Samson did not commit suicide.

[Jason0047]

When I am condescinding, you can tell immediately, but your reading comprehension abandons you any other time I am speaking. You should get help with that.

No, I have no problem with reading comprehension. You still do not know what you believe on this issue. You are simply unsure about this topic. For you said,

"If a person commits suicide and doesn't die immediately, who are you to say God can't have mercy on that soul?"​

Then you turned around and said,

Stop trying to make it out that I am saying suicide isn't a sin, or that you can kill yourself and go to heaven. I said no such thing. Stop twisting my words, and stop adding to God's words.​

Then you turned around and gave a "like" to someone who doesn't think that every suicide case is not a one way ticket to Hell.

Which is it? Either suicide is a sin (that you can't repent of) or it is not a sin.

I said, and I repeat, God is the judge of one's eternal destination. If He wants to save someone that kills themself, it will happen. I believe it can happen, but if it does, that will be an exception.

You said it can never happen. That is standing in God's judgement seat, and that is a dangerous thing.

No, I KNOW anyone who commits suicide is a sin that will send them to Hell because that is what the Bible plainly teaches. Nowhere does the Bible say that we can refuse to repent of our sins and still be saved. Repentance is a necessary key theme that is found thru out the entire Bible. For it is why the world is not saved. They have not repented of their sins and accepted Christ. In other words, David repented of his murder and his sexual immorality. What if David refused to repent and then died? Would he have been saved? No. He would have been holding onto those sins in rebellion against God. And suicide is self murder that you can't repent of.

I haven't threatened you. By saying so you have now slipped to the position of trying to kill the messenger because you don't like the message. You should get help with that too. Bearing false witness is a bad thing, you know.

I have not received any loving words from you. That is not bearing false witness. It is merely a statement of truth. You have done nothing but pour hatred towards me the moment we talked. Yes, we have to let people know about God's Word and judgments, but you don't hit him over the head with the Bible as if it was a 2 X 4. We have to speak to people in love. I have not seen that from you (When you have talked with me).

 

[phil112]

............................. Please show me instead of making idle threats. Also, you could be a little more loving, too. You know, that whole fruits of the Spirit thing?

......................................................I have not received any loving words from you. That is not bearing false witness...................

I have made no threats to you. You said I did. That is false witness. I have no love to show for false doctrine and intentional perversion of scripture. You want to see my love? Repent of your doctrine and acknowledge your erroneous teaching.

 

[Jason0047]

Anyways, getting back on topic, God was leading me to think about Samson again on my drive in to work. After thinking about Samson's situation some more I realized that his last act was a loose parallel of Jesus Christ. See, Samson didn't commit suicide, neither did Jesus. For both of them had laid down their lives in exchange in saving God's people at the end of their lives. Both of them trusted on God the Father before they both died physically. Samson desired to see the Israelïtes to be free from the oppression of their enemies (i.e. his captors). Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil and set free anyone who would believe and follow Him. What is also interesting is that Jesus took on the form of a bond servant and held back His Omniscience so as to be tempted in all points like we are tempted. In other words, Jesus willingly chose to not see all things as God (at certain times) in order to be our substitute during His Earthly ministry. Samson was blind too. And both men had stretched out their arms out love to save their people.

 

[Jason0047]

For Samson was a protector of God's people. So was Jesus.

For Jesus laid down his life for us. Just as if somebody jumped in front of you to take a bullet for you. It was done out of love. Jesus took on our sin and God the Father sent the final punishment of sin upon Jesus while on the cross and He then died within our place. Isn't that beautiful? God loved us so much to die for me, you, and every one else.

 

[SolidGround]

Anyways, getting back on topic, God was leading me to think about Samson again on my drive in to work. After thinking about Samson's situation some more I realized that his last act was a loose parallel of Jesus Christ. See, Samson didn't commit suicide, neither did Jesus. For both of them had laid down their lives in exchange in saving God's people at the end of their lives. Both of them trusted on God the Father before they both died physically. Samson desired to see the Israelïtes to be free from the oppression of their enemies (i.e. his captors). Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil and set free anyone who would believe and follow Him. What is also interesting is that Jesus took on the form of a bond servant and held back His Omniscience so as to be tempted in all points like we are tempted. In other words, Jesus willingly chose to not see all things as God (at certain times) in order to be our substitute during His Earthly ministry. Samson was blind too. And both men had stretched out their arms out love to save their people.

Sampson was a "type", but not a parallel. It was an inverse.

Sampson acted out in hatred and selfishness,
although still performing the destiny which God had given Him.
Christ acted out of love and selflessness,
perfectly fulfilling the destiny which God had given Him.

Sampson outstretched his arms in judgement.
Christ stretched out His arms in Mercy.

Sampson had no motivation to save Israel,
but only motivation to destroy the ones who murdered his wife: the Philistines.
Christ had motive to save not only Israel,
but also the world! Forgiving even His murderers.

Sampson had no desire to save himself, as he knew his own failures.
Christ had no desire to save Himself, as He knew His death assured His success!

Christ sacrificed Himself to save others.
Sampson sacrificed himself to destroy others.


Think less, read more. Let the Word speak to you.
The meaning of Scripture does not come from our thoughts,
but from it's own power and self-evidence.
Keep the Book open, and pray about it.
Do not close the Book to think.

 

[lisa79]

Yeah, no doubt and the one where Abraham was deceptive about his wife because of the fear of being killed over her.....

Or, Peter, denying the Lord three times.....Or Moses rising up and killing the Egyptian...........

Or how King David could not have really commited adultery or have Uriah killed because that would have been wrong and a man after Gods own heart could not do such a thing..... come on...really? We sin...we all sin despite our best efforts.

 

[Jason0047]

Sampson was a "type", but not a parallel.

Yes, I am familar with the word "Type" or "Typifications" for a long time now. A type or typification (of Christ) is a parallel or an analogy of something yet future. There are hundreds of typifications or Illustrations of Christ in the story of Joseph alone. Parallel. Two things side by side whereby you can see similarities. I see them as the same thing. But yes, the technical term is Type (or some might argue it as an Illustration).

It was an inverse.

I take it you are really into Types or Analogies in the Bible. Some like Gotquestions.org get nitpicky about the terms and say that we shouldn't confuse Types with Illustrations. Yet, I do not follow their logic, though. Illustrations are Types. Anyways, I am more concerned about studying the Scriptures than trying to make sure I have the right name on various analogies (Which was invented by a bunch of scholarly men). I see them all as analogies.

Sampson acted out in hatred and selfishness,

No, Samson prayed to the Lord for justice for the Philiistines in taking his two eyes and God answered his prayer (Judges 16:28). If his prayer was wrong in any way, then God would not have answered it.

although still performing the destiny which God had given Him.
Christ acted out of love and selflessness,
perfectly fulfilling the destiny which God had given Him.

I said towards the end of Samson's life it was a Parallel (Type or Typification or Illustration).
I did not say Samson's life was a Type.

Sampson outstretched his arms in judgement.

Christ stretched out His arms in Mercy.

My point is that they both outstretched their arms in love. God is love (1 John 4:16).
And Samson could only move those pillars by the power of God.

Sampson had no motivation to save Israel,

Samson was moved by the Spirit of God and he helped to begin in the deliverance of Israel.
The Scriptures are silent on the issue of his feelings regarding his people. But I don't think he could have had hate in his heart for his brothers, though. For if we hate our brother we have no eternal life abiding in us. Samson had eternal life (The Spirit of God) many times working within his life (Despite his flawed life as a believer).

but only motivation to destroy the ones who murdered his wife: the Philistines.
Christ had motive to save not only Israel,
but also the world! Forgiving even His murderers.

As I said before, I am not saying the life of Samson is an exact Type. I said the end their lives was a Parallel or Type.

Sampson had no desire to save himself, as he knew his own failures.
Christ had no desire to save Himself, as He knew His death assured His success!

I would agree with that.

Christ sacrificed Himself to save others.
Sampson sacrificed himself to destroy others.

Yet, that is true; But my point was that they both saved others as the final result, though.
Samson helped to begin in delivering his people.

Think less, read more. Let the Word speak to you. The meaning of Scripture does not come from our thoughts,
but from it's own power and self-evidence.
Keep the Book open, and pray about it.
Do not close the Book to think.

*Reflects the mirror back towards you*

I would suggest the same thing to you.

Anyways, may God bless you.
And please be well.

 

[JimmieD]

No, Samson prayed to the Lord for justice for the Philiistines in taking his two eyes and God answered his prayer (Judges 16:28). If his prayer was wrong in any way, then God would not have answered it.

(1) Samson prayed for revenge in 16:28, not justice. And how could we say it's just to take people's lives for gouging out someone's eyes, especially when most of those killed had nothing to do with with the gouging? How is that a fair punishment? It was even spelled out in the law code that this was unjust:

Exodus21:23 But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life, 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

I can't believe I even have to make this argument, but the principle is that the punishment must fit the crime and Exodus, Leviticus, as well as other ancient law codes, spell this out in terms of reciprocity (eye for eye, do unto others, etc..). Samson killing someone for gouging out his eyes violates reciprocal justice. He did it out of revenge.

(2) We are not told in the text that God answered anything. We are simply told that Samson prayed and acted on his desires. Maybe you would infer/assume from the text that God answered his prayer, but there is no necessity in inferring such a thing. There is nothing that says that God gave him the strength, answered his prayer, sanctioned his behavior, or anything. Samson simply wished revenge and carried it out.

 

[JimmieD]

We could also say that the point of telling the Samson story in Judges is to demonstrate how lawless Israel was before it had a king. The common refrain in Judges, and so one of the points of the book, is that in those days there was no king in Israel, everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

17:6 In those days Israel had no king. Each man did what he considered to be right.[SUP] [/SUP]

21:25 In those days Israel had no king. Each man did what he considered to be right

Samson is a case and point for this refrain. Without a king, Israel was ruled by and dominated by tribal elders and tribal warriors. Leaders were often lawless and ruthless, like Samson. This is why Israel needed a king.

 

[Jason0047]

(1) Samson prayed for revenge in 16:28, not justice. And how could we say it's just to take people's lives for gouging out someone's eyes, especially when most of those killed had nothing to do with with the gouging? How is that a fair punishment? It was even spelled out in the law code that this was unjust:

If it was unjust or wrong for Samson to ask such a thing to God, then God would have never condoned Samson's pray by giving him the Spirit to take down the two pillars.

See, that is what people are failing to understand here. Yes, Jesus taught us to pray for our enemies and to do good to those who despitefully use us, but God is not against justice, though. The injustice of the Philiistine's sin of taking Samson's eyes was not something that was good, but it was something that was sinful and wrong. Samson asking for justice for that sin was dependant upon whether or not God would give Samson the Spirit so as to take the two pillars down. If God did not answer Samson's prayer (and not condone his request), then Samson would have not been given the Spirit so as to take the two pillars down.

Exodus21:23 But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life, 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

I can't believe I even have to make this argument, but the principle is that the punishment must fit the crime and Exodus, Leviticus, as well as other ancient law codes, spell this out in terms of reciprocity (eye for eye, do unto others, etc..). Samson killing someone for gouging out his eyes violates reciprocal justice. He did it out of revenge.

Revenge is when you seek to take matters into your own hands without God. Samson was asking God to hear his prayer for justice and God granted that request. God in His all knowing wisdom of what is good and fair decided to grant Samson's request. If for some reason it was a wrong request, then God would not have answered Samson's prayer and He could have destroyed the Temple by some other means.

(2) We are not told in the text that God answered anything. We are simply told that Samson prayed and acted on his desires. Maybe you would infer/assume from the text that God answered his prayer, but there is no necessity in inferring such a thing. There is nothing that says that God gave him the strength, answered his prayer, sanctioned his behavior, or anything. Samson simply wished revenge and carried it out.

No, no. Samson could not have destroyed those two pillars without the Spirit of God giving him the strength to do so. See, if you were to pay special close attention to the verses in the story of Samson, you would reailize that His strength came from God.

 

[Jason0047]

We could also say that the point of telling the Samson story in Judges is to demonstrate how lawless Israel was before it had a king. The common refrain in Judges, and so one of the points of the book, is that in those days there was no king in Israel, everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

17:6 In those days Israel had no king. Each man did what he considered to be right.

21:25 In those days Israel had no king. Each man did what he considered to be right

Samson is a case and point for this refrain. Without a king, Israel was ruled by and dominated by tribal elders and tribal warriors. Leaders were often lawless and ruthless, like Samson. This is why Israel needed a king.

True, but Samson was also brought into this world so as to begin to deliever Israel, too.

Judges 13:5
"For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no rasor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines."

The destruction of the Philistine Temple was a part of that beginnng deliverance.

 

[JimmieD]

If it was unjust or wrong for Samson to ask such a thing to God, then God would have never condoned Samson's pray by giving him the Spirit to take down the two pillars.

That's just not what the text says though. It says nothing about God condoning Samson's behavior.

See, that is what people are failing to understand here. Yes, Jesus taught us to pray for our enemies and to do good to those who despitefully use us, but God is not against justice, though. The injustice of the Philiistine's sin of taking Samson's eyes was not something that was good, but it was something that was sinful and wrong. Samson asking for justice for that sin was dependant upon whether or not God would give Samson the Spirit so as to take the two pillars down. If God did not answer Samson's prayer (and not condone his request), then Samson would have not been given the Spirit so as to take the two pillars down.

Sure, the Philistines could be unjust for gouging out his eyes, but justice is hardly found in killing as many of them as possible as response. That's unjust punishment for gouging out his eyes. Basic reciprocity should be enough to see that the response by Samson was unsuitable for the crime committed, but if you need something more explicit than human moral intuition, there is Exodus 21:23-25.

Revenge is when you seek to take matters into your own hands without God. Samson was asking God to hear his prayer for justice and God granted that request. God in His all knowing wisdom of what is good and fair decided to grant Samson's request. If for some reason it was a wrong request, then God would not have answered Samson's prayer and He could have destroyed the Temple by some other means.

Samson explicity asks for revenge. There's no getting around this in the text. Samson wants revenge and to kill as many Philistines as possible becuase some of them gouged out his eyes. He explicity asks for this. I don't know how you cann't see the words coming out of Samson's mouth.

Where there is a direct quote of Samson requesting revenge in the form of killling as many Philistines as possible for a few of them gouging out his eyes, there is nothing in the text about God granting anything, answering anything, condoning anything, etc.. There is nothing that says this. Perhaps you could infer it from the text, but the text could also be read as Samson just acting on his own desires for revenge without requiring any inference and just going with what is written.

I don't doubt the text is to be read as Samson being a brave Israelite warrior for killing himself in the process of taking out the enemy, women and all, but I just see nothing in this text about God sanctioning his behavior.

No, no. Samson could not have destroyed those two pillars without the Spirit of God giving him the strength to do so.

Says who?

See, if you were to pay special close attention to the verses in the story of Samson, you would reailize that His strength came from God.

I have paid special close attention and don't see anything of the sort. I see Samson asking for revenge and then carrying out his desires. I don't see anything about God being involved. Maybe he was, but if he was he didn't tell us about it. All we have is Samson's prayer and subsequent Samson's action.

Most of what Samson did was lawless and brutal, which is the point of telling the story the way it's told in Judges. He demands his parents go get a Philistine wife for himself. He taunts and make wagers with the Philistine relatives of his wife. To uphold his end of the wager, he murders a bunch of people and takes their clothes to give the guys who took the other side of his bet. He destroyed the Philistine's property because they wouldn't give him the wife he wanted. It's at this point that some of the Philistines decide to go invade Judah to capture Samson. And is it any wonder why? He's murdered some of their people, took their clothes, and destroyed their farms. In today's parlance Samson was something like a terrorist. In the end they gouge out his eyes and he wants revenge. So his takes his own life in the process of killing as many of them as possible. There is little about this guy to like and nothing to emulate. He was a tribal brute, and the point of including the story in Judges is that this is what Israel was like with no king - everyone did right in their own eyes.

Maybe we could say Samson's strength specifically came from his adherence to his Nazarite vows. When he broke his vows, he lost his strength, but when he maintained his vows he gained his strength back. Maybe God didn't condone this particular incident of killing the Philistines but did condone Samson's strength while he was adhering to his Nazarite vows. That could be a possible way to see things.

True, but Samson was also brought into this world so as to begin to deliever Israel, too.

Judges 13:5
"For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no rasor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines."

The destruction of the Philistine Temple was a part of that beginnng deliverance.

Samson began to deliver Israel from the Philistines as seen in Jg 14-15, there is no need to say that his demise was what Jg 13:5 was talking about, especially when there is more ink spilled recalling Samson's battles in 14-15. And Samson did very little, if anything at all, to actually deliver anyone from the Philistines. The Philistines were still around during David's time and were arguably more powerful at that point. If Samson did deliver anyone, it was in his response to the invasion of Judah that was sparked from Samson's actions in the first place.

 

[SolidGround]

God uses whomever He Wills to carry out His Plans and Purposes.
God uses even unbelievers to carry out His Will.
Why say that God can only work through repentant believers?

Why am I even responding?
You are given over to the trials of Job.
You need the discipline of the Father, not the instruction of a brother.

 

[Jason0047]

That's just not what the text says though. It says nothing about God condoning Samson's behavior.

Let's get one thing straight here. God will not even listen to a person's prayer if it is not agreement with His will.

1 John 5:14 says, "And this is the confidence we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us."

See, snakes are not good for you. So asking for a snake when you know they can bite you and make you feel sick and or die is not something that is in line with God's will. That's why if you ask for something good in accordance to His will, He will not give you a snake as an answer to your prayer.

We also have to understand that back then, prayers were done from a slightly different focus then the way we pray today. For example: The Old Testament does not speak about praying for your enemies like the New Testament does. Also, the way we treat our enemies is also done differently than the way God's people had treated them back then. Back then it was an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth; But today it is turn the other cheek and do good to those that despitefully use you.

For example: Elisha had cursed a bunch of young youths who were mocking him and God. They were great in number and a potential threat physically to Elisha. So he cursed them and some she bears came out and attacked them. I believe this was because Elisha felt it was not only wrong that they mocked God, but he felt threatened for his life, too. So God protected Elisha by honoring his words of Judgment upon them. Such an action was to snap these dumb youths into fearing the Lord their God so as to repent.

So you see, it was not that Israel and the prophets were doing bad things. No, no. Most certainly not. God's Judgments (Whether they are issued forth in the form of venomous serpents, or carried out by His people), are always a means of destroying the works of the devil and bringing about the goodness of the Kingdom of God in people's lives (Who are open to receiving Him).

Sure, the Philistines could be unjust for gouging out his eyes, but justice is hardly found in killing as many of them as possible as response. That's unjust punishment for gouging out his eyes. Basic reciprocity should be enough to see that the response by Samson was unsuitable for the crime committed, but if you need something more explicit than human moral intuition, there is Exodus 21:23-25.

You have no basic understanding of what happened in the story. Samson revealed that the secret of his strength resided in his hair. For he said that if a razor had come upon his head he would become as an ordinary man in strength (Judges 16:17). This was a special blessing by God. Scientifically, there is nothing that proves that a person is stronger with longer hair. For the Spirit of God came upon Samson when he was fighting a lion and he beat the lion. Generally lions are more powerful then men. So you see, it was the Spirit of God that gave Samson his strength.

This then leads us to the conclusion that if Samson destroyed the two pillars after praying to God so as to help him, it was clearly done by the power and Spirit of God (Like all the other previous times). It was God answering Samson's prayer.

For Samson acted in faith and not unbelief. Samson trusted in God to bring vengeance upon his enemies. For without faith, it is impossible to please God. For Samson could have went lone wolf in trying to get vengeance on the Philistines. But he didn't do that. He prayed to God and God answered his prayer by Samson trusting in God. For when we trust in God by faith, we are loving God. When God abides in our life we are abiding in love because God is love.

Sure, the Atheist and the doubter of God's Word will say that Samson acted out of personal vengeance or revenge. However, if this was the case, then why didn't Samson try to take revenge without the help of God? Why did God answer his prayer? How could Samson have the strength to take down the two pillars on his own without God? If Samson believed he could do this on his own power, then why pray to God about it?

See, what you propose doesn't make any sense, my friend.

God is love.
Even in his Judgments
(Because it is putting an end to that which is evil - So as to usher in that which is good).

 

[Jason0047]

God uses whomever He Wills to carry out His Plans and Purposes.
God uses even unbelievers to carry out His Will.
Why say that God can only work through repentant believers?

First, Samson was not an unbeliever and nor did he apostatize (For if Samson was not in God's good graces towards the end of his life, then why was he mentioned amongst the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11?). Second, I never said that God does not use unbelievers so as to accomplish his plans and purposes. However, God does not live in the hearts of unbelievers, though. That would be impossible. Only believers have Jesus (Who is the source of eternal life) (1 John 5:12).

 

[Jason0047]

Song about Samson.

Samson | lower lights burning

Side Note: Song is not entirely accurate Biblically, but it is a good song (none the less) that helps us feel what it might have been like for Samson.