Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

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Jun 5, 2014
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I don't think he said it was an error, he said it was an unfortunate translation... of which I completely disagree. Every word in the bible is put there by God, some words reveal and some words conceal. I don't know what "strong wine" is, it's only mentioned in one place in the bible.
Of course he didn't say it was error. Like you, he is not going to admit there might be an error in the KJV, no matter what.

That's why you keep saying nobody has ever proved you wrong that there are no errors in the KJV.

If "strong wine" is not alcoholic, it seems to me that it is an error.

The Hebrew word "shekar" translated to "strong wine" in that verse is translated to "strong drink" in Deuteronomy 14:26 in the KJV. In that verse God is giving instructions regarding the tithe.

The preponderance of evidence appears to be clear that "shekar" is an intoxicating beverage.
 
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BradC

Guest
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

This sums up alot about consuming alcohol and its effects. One can drink a single glass of wine and be inebriated, They start saying things they usually withhold and they may even slip up and communicate a confidence and that would be sin on their part. Most of you that like to drink wine don't look at it that way. To be intoxicated has different levels. You can have a low level of intoxication but you are still inebriated and your natural state, including your conscience, is effected and usually the tongue becomes a little loose and says things it should not and you get in trouble or others in trouble.

You can have a tendency to easily exaggerate, leave off important details, communicate presumptuously, become vulnerable in your emotions especially if you are a woman, initiate things that are unbecoming as a man and consider things that you would normally restrain yourself because of integrity, respect and character. One glass of wine can do that and you might not even realize that you are doing any of these things. You might even justify and say 'it's about time I got that off my chest' or 'I don't care what they think, it's true and I needed to tell someone, it may as well be you.'

Wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. It only takes a little to get going what this verse is communicating in terms of truth and whether a little or a lot it is deception and unwise. No one can handle their alcoholic beverages, it is the beverage that handles you and delivers you over to these things. You may even say no (10) times and on the (11th) time you give in and say what the heck. Wine is a mocker! It mocked you on the (11th) time and you did or said something that you can't take back or reverse and it is going to cause trouble. It may be a confession you make that ends up as a wild fire not able to be put out.

For all of you that want to drink your wine and have a few beers or a shot of this or that, sooner or later it will bite you like a serpent,

Proverbs 23

29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. (2 categories are mentioned)
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (white or pink), when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

The thing that people don't want to be honest about is when the wine, the mixed or strong drink is consumed in any portion, the heart begins to indite certain things that should not be indited. I guarantee you that drinking any amount of alcoholic beverage does not make you love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. It might help you love your neighbor but in the wrong way. Wine is a mocker of the values that you hold onto when you are 100% sober and in your right mind without any level of inebriation. If we need anything to help us with life we need the filling of the Spirit continuously.

Eph 5:15-21

15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk (at any level) with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

This sums up alot about consuming alcohol and its effects. One can drink a single glass of wine and be inebriated, They start saying things they usually withhold and they may even slip up and communicate a confidence and that would be sin on their part. Most of you that like to drink wine don't look at it that way. To be intoxicated has different levels. You can have a low level of intoxication but you are still inebriated and your natural state, including your conscience, is effected and usually the tongue becomes a little loose and says things it should not and you get in trouble or others in trouble.

You can have a tendency to easily exaggerate, leave off important details, communicate presumptuously, become vulnerable in your emotions especially if you are a woman, initiate things that are unbecoming as a man and consider things that you would normally restrain yourself because of integrity, respect and character. One glass of wine can do that and you might not even realize that you are doing any of these things. You might even justify and say 'it's about time I got that off my chest' or 'I don't care what they think, it's true and I needed to tell someone, it may as well be you.'

Wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. It only takes a little to get going what this verse is communicating in terms of truth and whether a little or a lot it is deception and unwise. No one can handle their alcoholic beverages, it is the beverage that handles you and delivers you over to these things. You may even say no (10) times and on the (11th) time you give in and say what the heck. Wine is a mocker! It mocked you on the (11th) time and you did or said something that you can't take back or reverse and it is going to cause trouble. It may be a confession you make that ends up as a wild fire not able to be put out.

For all of you that want to drink your wine and have a few beers or a shot of this or that, sooner or later it will bite you like a serpent,

Proverbs 23

29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. (2 categories are mentioned)
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (white or pink), when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

The thing that people don't want to be honest about is when the wine, the mixed or strong drink is consumed in any portion, the heart begins to indite certain things that should not be indited. I guarantee you that drinking any amount of alcoholic beverage does not make you love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. It might help you love your neighbor but in the wrong way. Wine is a mocker of the values that you hold onto when you are 100% sober and in your right mind without any level of inebriation. If we need anything to help us with life we need the filling of the Spirit continuously.

Eph 5:15-21

15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk (at any level) with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

You are right, and if you have a weak metabolism to wear you get drunk on one glass of wine you should abstain from drinking it.

That is where rightful use, and wrongful use come into play. How it affects you, and or others.

If it causes another who has a problem with alcohol to stumble and fall back into drinking it again by seeing you drinking it, then we are not to drink it. If you can not control your drinking habit, and drink it to get drunk, and if asked can not put it down and stop drinking it, then you also are drinking it wrong and becomes sin.

The drinking of it in itself is not wrong, it is rather or not it controls you, or you control it.

Now I will admit that some or a lot of alcoholic drinkers believe falsely they do have control.

Drinking one glass of wine a day is not wrong, and you are not a drunkard if this is the only amount of alcohol you consume.

This also applies to those who only drink on special occasions during the year, they are not counted as drunkards either.
 
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lisa79

Guest
I've known people that started with one drink, got addicted, couldn't fight it or shake it, died drunkards and will be in the lake of fire forever.

why chance being wrong?
Matthew 12:31-32 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.32"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

I know people who's saving grace was the fact they were afflicted with addiction. They could not help themselves out of the hell they created for themselves and cried out to Jesus. Dont judge things you dont understand. Drunkenness can be forgiven and God can restore. Why chance being wrong?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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I have no problem with the New Testament believer drinking soberly and in moderation within privacy of their own home. We have a liberty in Jesus Christ. What I have a problem with is people here are making alcohol into something that it is not within the Bible. They are giving it glory and they are not giving Jesus Christ the glory. For they promoting alcohol openly as if it is like this amazing and great thing that God wants His people to drink with a proud spirit out in the open like they are at a huge outdoor drinking party full of drunkenness and other sinful types of behaviors. For when a person does drink, it does not lead them into righteousness. Most of the time it leads them into unrighteousness. For when a person does drink, their life does not suddenly become better. Most of the time it leads to destruction, heart ache, and ruin of one's family and life. Yes, can you drink responsibly? Sure you can. Do we have have a liberty in Christ? Yes, absolutely. But please do not let your good be evil spoke of, though. Please do not make alcohol like it some kind of god that should take glory above Jesus Christ with you defending it as if it is this miracle cure all blessing for your life. Alcohol takes lives every several minutes and destroys families and homes. Putting a blind fold onto that fact does the reality of the truth.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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Edit correction on my previous post (for the last sentence):

Putting a blind fold on so as to cover up that fact does not change the reality of that truth.
 
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lisa79

Guest
I have no problem with the New Testament believer drinking soberly and in moderation within privacy of their own home. We have a liberty in Jesus Christ. What I have a problem with is people here are making alcohol into something that it is not within the Bible. They are giving it glory and they are not giving Jesus Christ the glory. For they promoting alcohol openly as if it is like this amazing and great thing that God wants His people to drink with a proud spirit out in the open like they are at a huge outdoor drinking party full of drunkenness and other sinful types of behaviors. For when a person does drink, it does not lead them into righteousness. Most of the time it leads them into unrighteousness. For when a person does drink, their life does not suddenly become better. Most of the time it leads to destruction, heart ache, and ruine of one's family and life. Yes, we have a liberty in Christ, but do not let your good be evil spoke of.

You can not drink of His cup if it has alcohol in it? Then for your sake you better be sure or you can not. You will be accountable for your words.
This isnt about Christian behavior. Mature believers do not need you to explain to us how to enjoy things in moderation. New believers may look up to you and you are teaching them that the gospel of truth can be a trick. You are wrong for that.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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You can not drink of His cup if it has alcohol in it? Then for your sake you better be sure or you can not. You will be accountable for your words. This isnt about Christian behavior. Mature believers do not need you to explain to us how to enjoy things in moderation. New believers may look up to you and you are teaching them that the gospel of truth can be a trick. You are wrong for that.
I am judging your version of god that does not exist within the Scriptures; And I am not judging the Lord our God who is a good God as described within God's Word. For your version of God paints alcohol or intoxicating beverages in the Old Testament as if it was a good thing. However, there are many warnings against the OT saints (Not the NT saints) drinking intoxicating or strong alcoholic beverages (Of which you wish you could take a black magic marker and cross them all out). For did you actually look and pray over any of these warnings?

Anyways, peace, blessings, and love be unto you.
I do hope you reconsider by looking at those warnings in Scripture that are against alcohol.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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For how can my soul be at risk in defending the goodness of God? How can I be at risk with God for believing that the wine was not intoxicating at the Wedding at Cana? How can I be at risk in thinking it is wrong to promote alcohol at a public drinking party when the New Testament condemns drunkeneness? For I know alcohol bites like a serpent. I know wine is not for kings. I know wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging. I know Daniel refused the King's meat and wine so as not to be defiled. Do you believe any of these verses? Have you sought to twist the obvious plain meaning of these verses because you like your drink? Yes, we have a liberty in Christ to drink soberly and in moderation within the privacy of our own place, but to believe that alcohol should take glory above Jesus Chrst by condemning other brethren and by making alcohol this amazing and beautiful thing (When it is not) is clearly wrong.
 
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lisa79

Guest
I am judging your version of god that does not exist within the Scriptures; And I am not judging the Lord our God who is a good God as described within God's Word. For your version of God paints alcohol or intoxicating beverages in the Old Testament as if it was a good thing. However, there are many warnings against the OT saints (Not the NT saints) drinking intoxicating or strong alcoholic beverages (Of which you wish you could take a black magic marker and cross them all out). For did you actually look and pray over any of these warnings?

Anyways, peace, blessings, and love be unto you.
I do hope you reconsider by looking at those warnings in Scripture that are against alcohol.
No...because I dont care what the wine contained. It was good. Honestly I could live the rest of my life without alcohol. You want to write a whole new bible! You are not qualified. You have definitions taught by man but lack interpretation by the Spirit of God. If you understood you would see where you have placed yourself in this factual story....judging Gods handywork! Pointing fingers at those below you because you think you are walking a "higher road" ... you still dont see.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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No...because I dont care what the wine contained. It was good. Honestly I could live the rest of my life without alcohol. You want to write a whole new bible! You are not qualified. You have definitions taught by man but lack interpretation by the Spirit of God. If you understood you would see where you have placed yourself in this factual story....judging Gods handywork! Pointing fingers at those below you because you think you are walking a "higher road" ... you still dont see.
No, you have not, dear lady. You have been defending alcohol since day one on this thread by "liking" every self professing believer who is making alcohol into this wonderful and amazing thing (When it is clearly not an amazing and wonderful thing because it destroys familes and homes every several minutes). You yourself had said that your drunkeness was not wrong and it was just your life. Yet the Bible says drunkenness is a sin, though. Also, believers have a right to Judge what is good and acceptable for believers in doctrine, and in training of righteousness according to God's Word (2 Timothy 3:16). For know you not that we shall judge angels?

I say this not so as to wound you, but in love so that you can see the dangers in defending a God that can do something that was clearly condemend in the Old Testament.
 
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lisa79

Guest
;1657096]No, you have not, dear lady. You have defending alcohol since day one on this thread by "liking" every self professing believer who is making alcohol into this wonderful and amazing thing (When it is clearly not an amazing and wonderful thing because it destroys familes and homes every several minutes). You yourself had said that your drunkeness was not wrong and it was just your life. Yet the Bible says drunkenness is a sin, though. Also, believers have a right to Judge what is good and acceptable for believers in doctrine, and in training of righteousness according to God's Word (2 Timothy 3:16). For know you not that we shall judge angels?[/QUOTE]


You missed the point: Let me be clear. If you are wrong you have commited the only sin NOT forgivable. You do not know me so do not judge me. I do not promote nor condemn alcohol. But this isnt about you judging me because you have no power to do that..its comical when you try.

I would have stopped responding to this thread days ago but I felt compelled to make sure you understand the gravity of the situation. You have opened a dangerous door and led others in.
 
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lisa79

Guest
No, you have not, dear lady. You have been defending alcohol since day one on this thread by "liking" every self professing believer who is making alcohol into this wonderful and amazing thing (When it is clearly not an amazing and wonderful thing because it destroys familes and homes every several minutes). You yourself had said that your drunkeness was not wrong and it was just your life. Yet the Bible says drunkenness is a sin, though. Also, believers have a right to Judge what is good and acceptable for believers in doctrine, and in training of righteousness according to God's Word (2 Timothy 3:16). For know you not that we shall judge angels?

I say this not so as to wound you, but in love so that you can see the dangers in defending a God that can do something that was clearly condemend in the Old Testament.
You missed the point: Let me be clear. If you are wrong you have commited the only sin NOT forgivable. You do not know me so do not judge me. I do not promote nor condemn alcohol. But this isnt about you judging me because you have no power to do that..its comical when you try. I would have stopped responding to this thread days ago but I felt compelled to make sure you understand the gravity of the situation. You have opened a dangerous door and led others in.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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i'm just interested to see how long ya'll keep this going.
 
Jun 5, 2014
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Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Thanks.

And again we have the Hebrew word "yayin" for "wine" and "shekar" for "strong drink."

Hey KJV1611 and StandingFirmInChrist, you two "liked" this post.

Please tell me again how we are not talking about intoxicating beverages here.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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You missed the point: Let me be clear. If you are wrong you have commited the only sin NOT forgivable. You do not know me so do not judge me. I do not promote nor condemn alcohol. But this isnt about you judging me because you have no power to do that..its comical when you try. I would have stopped responding to this thread days ago but I felt compelled to make sure you understand the gravity of the situation. You have opened a dangerous door and led others in.
God is not going to condemn me for believing He is good and in defending how He is presented in the Holy Scriptures. See, in order for you to be right, you would have to take a black magic marker and cross out every warning to the Old Testament about alcoholic beverages. That is what you are failing to understand. Christ's good miracles are obvious to see and calling them good is not wrong. If I am overzealous in defending the goodness of my God, how can the Lord fault me? See, if there is something good behind having a public drinking party, then you are failing to tell me what that that goodness is. For do you truly believe that is how Christ manifested his glory at the Wedding of Cana? A sense of morality or goodness that you cannot explain. See, that is was you are not getting. So you will accuse and condemn me over and over while I only seek to love you and for you to see the love of God and His goodness. For I believe the miracles that Christ did were good. I am sorry you do not believe that.

However, I will pray for you to see where I am coming from.
 
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lisa79

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I have read everything you have placed out here. I would like to invite you and others here to hear my interpretation of this miracle. I don't not mind being corrected as I clearly do not study as much of the world of many of you. I have to believe that even if the internet did not exist that God has made things easy enough that I can understand by His spirit.

Its a wedding and its a wedding of a good family because Mary who is virtuous is there. Jesus and His friends (disciples) are invited and there are so many people that the wine has run out. Mary knows her Son can do anything and she asks knowing. He says "its not my time" She tells the servants to so whatever He says to do. (We are the servants) He says go out and get some water (the reaping of the harvest) and fill the jars with it." Then Jesus adds the fruits of the spirit which are our good works to the water. The water is made into wine. This is a powerful family and we are but humble servants. This man (Jesus) comes in and we watch Him do this! He says "now...take the wine to the Govenor/Master of the ceremony (represenative of God the Father) and let him judge the wine." This entails trust from us that it is not poisonous. The Governor/Master of the Ceremony tastes it and calls out (trumpets sound) for the Bridegroom (God the Son) " this is good! you saved the best for last!"


The Governor is God the Father.
The Bridegroom the God the Son
The wine is God the Holy spirit. (is made of its from the fruits of the spirit)
We are the servants.

Its a wedding and God was invited there to be a witness.
Jesus is God!

This first miracle is how He knew the will of the Father. When so few noticed the wine was good. He understood that few would know Him to be good. His glory was manifested.

Close your eyes and look around you! You are in the presence of the Holy trinity at the throne of God! You are insulting His wine and I testing Him?

AGAIN it do not care to if it has alcohol in it. I cant drink it anyways. i cant bear the cross! I was told to take it to the Father and let Him tell you if it is good. He says it is. Please stop and think. Do you really want to risk being wrong?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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See, when I look at the Holy Scriptures I see God as always being good and loving no matter what He is doing. I believe I can explain the goodness of God and how His morality makes sense. My God's goodness (According to the Word) is not a mystery to me. I believe the Scriptures teach that I can trust in God's goodness and come to know and explain that goodness to people. It's not a mystery. God's love and goodness can be known.
 
Jun 5, 2014
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I would like to see the thread get back on topic.:)
Finally, you have a good idea.

Now, what does the Hebrew word "shekar" mean again?

Strong (intoxicating) drink or Kool-Aid?

Hey, that could be your problem causing lack of understanding. Too much Kool-Aid.