In context: Romans 4:4-5

[newbirth]

God automatically gives faith to everyone? No. God gives a differing measure of faith to His children, not to unbelievers, (Romans 12:3). Paul goes on to say 4 - For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

Notice in 1 Corinthians 12:9 - to another faith by the same Spirit.. This is concerning spiritual gifts (vs. 1). This is not the faith that all believers have in Christ for salvation, since Paul implies that some believers have it and some do not. This is a special endowment of faith for accomplishing certain tasks.

While we were yet sinners and unbelievers God sent his word to us ...faith comes by hearing...God's word does not return to him void...whoever hears the word believes, man is without excuse....some choose to accept, some choose to reject ,some choose to deny...but we all believe. Those of us who receive the word and continue therein are those who act upon the faith given through the word.

God's enabling power, which is unmerited, not merited favor, is a part of it all. We have access by faith into grace by which we stand (Romans 5:2).

true

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works. If someone claims to have faith, but they have no works, they demonstrate that their faith is dead (James 2:14). Good works demonstrate that our faith is alive.

If you continue to leave out grace in your statement you leave out the power of salvation

Good works glorify God, but we are saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. The other way around would be created in good works unto Christ Jesus.

agreed

Show me? I already understand this. Where do works fit into the equation here in Romans 5:1-2? They don't. They are the fruit of being justified by faith...having access by faith into grace. Works bear out the justification that comes by faith. That is the sense in which we are justified by works (James 2:24). Not saved by works, but good works SHOW or manifest the genuineness of our faith (James 2:14-24).

If you were created for good works and you don't do good works...then what are you good for ??? You have failed in the purpose you were created for...

God draws us and enables us, yet we choose to place our faith in Christ for salvation. God forces nobody to believe.

agreed

He automatically gave it to us against our will or we chose to place our faith in Christ for salvation?

faith comes with hearing the word ... else there is no way you could believe...we were enemies with God. You chose to accept God's truth and you can choose to deny him if you want.

These works are produced out of faith. Notice in the parable of the sower, Matthew 13:23 - And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit/produces a crop and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. What does good soil/hear the word and understands it and indeed bears fruit/produces a crop represent? You have to do good works in order to become saved or you will do good works if you are truly saved? See what your faith is in for salvation? "Works" and not Christ alone.

We are supposed to do the good works...if we don't we are fruitless and in danger of being throen in the fire...

What did I change? You are the one placing the cart before the horse.

If you do not understand that salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works, then you will not understand this passage and will continue to try and "shoe horn" works into saved through faith, not works.

Faith without works is dead...

You need to read James 2:24 in context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James gives us the test for genuine faith: like the faith of Abraham, it results in works. Works are the demonstrative evidence of genuine saving faith, not the actual means of our salvation. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. I will SHOW you my faith by my works. We are saved by the kind of faith that is accompanied (confirmed, authenticated) by works. We are justified by faith but only by a true faith, a faith proved to be true if it is followed by good works. Believers are not doing good works in order to become saved, we are doing good works because we have already been saved by authentic faith in Jesus, which trusts exclusively in Him for salvation. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

why are you wrestling with the word ...you say faith no works , then you say faith accompanied by works. Now authentic faith....does authentic faith have works? Does genuine faith have works? Does genuine saving faith have works?
Does true faith have works?
What kind of faith has no works? How did you get saved by authentic faith that have no works when authentic faith must have works else it is a bare profession of faith?





In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV read, "declared God just." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous," not accounted as righteous. So James is not using the word "justified" to mean "is made righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (I will SHOW you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2,3). You need to rightly divide the word of truth.

So you are saying James was lying , if we are not accounted as righteous then we are living a lie....Then God did not purge us from sins nor did he place his HS in us...because you claim we are pseudo righteous

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Are you beginning to get the picture yet?

Do you even understand the verse you quote? He is saying wise men are proved by their actions...works...justified/vindicated/shown to be right...by their works

 

[mailmandan]

If you were created for good works and you don't do good works...then what are you good for ??? You have failed in the purpose you were created for...We are supposed to do the good works...if we don't we are fruitless and in danger of being throen in the fire...

If you claim to have faith but don't do any good works, then you demonstrate that your faith is bogus. Fruitless faith is a dead faith.

Faith without works is dead...

Yet it takes a living faith to produce good works, just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit. A dead faith cannot produce good works, just as a dead tree cannot produce fruit.

why are you wrestling with the word ...you say faith no works , then you say faith accompanied by works. Now authentic faith....does authentic faith have works? Does genuine faith have works? Does genuine saving faith have works?
Does true faith have works?
What kind of faith has no works? How did you get saved by authentic faith that have no works when authentic faith must have works else it is a bare profession of faith?

I'm not wrestling with the word. You don't seem to understand that our faith is alive in Christ first, then unto good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). A dead faith does not produce good works in order to become a living faith, but because it's a living faith. You continue to put the cart before the horse. Genuine saving faith results in producing good works. We do not produce multiple good works a split second after we have been made alive together with Christ (by grace through faith). It takes some time. The kind of faith that claims to be genuine but does produce any works is a dead faith. I was saved by authentic faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. Then good works which followed demonstrated the genuineness of my faith.

So you are saying James was lying , if we are not accounted as righteous then we are living a lie....Then God did not purge us from sins nor did he place his HS in us...because you claim we are pseudo righteous

I said no such thing. Why do you have such a hard time understanding what I explain to you? We are accounted as righteous based on our faith, not our works (Romans 4:2-6) and shown to be righteous by our works (James 2:14-18). Do you understand that?

Do you even understand the verse you quote? He is saying wise men are proved by their actions...works...justified/vindicated/shown to be right...by their works

Yes, justified/vindicated/shown to be right...by their works. It's the same with our works in James chapter 2.

 

[newbirth]

If you claim to have faith but don't do any good works, then you demonstrate that your faith is bogus. Fruitless faith is a dead faith.

here you are saying you have to do works...and I agree

Yet it takes a living faith to produce good works, just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit. A dead faith cannot produce good works, just as a dead tree cannot produce fruit.

now you are saying faith produces works these are two different things....the scripture did not say faith produces works... it says faith without works, so the opposite would be faith with works...

I'm not wrestling with the word. You don't seem to understand that our faith is alive in Christ first, then unto good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). A dead faith does not produce good works in order to become a living faith, but because it's a living faith. You continue to put the cart before the horse. Genuine saving faith results in producing good works. We do not produce multiple good works a split second after we have been made alive together with Christ (by grace through faith). It takes some time. The kind of faith that claims to be genuine but does produce any works is a dead faith. I was saved by authentic faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. Then good works which followed demonstrated the genuineness of my faith.

That is because you are waiting for faith to produce good works... the scripture says you have to do good works... if you change a blown out tire and put on a good tire, you don't wait fo that tire to become good it is good. You have put on Christ you know what is good.
We are saved by grace... not genuine saving faith...you are changing the word...
,

I said no such thing. Why do you have such a hard time understanding what I explain to you? We are accounted as righteous based on our faith, not our works (Romans 4:2-6) and shown to be righteous by our works (James 2:14-18). Do you understand that?

You have separated faith from works...is James talking about a different faith from Paul?...No it is the same faith...One faith...faith without works is dead. I am telling you if you did not act upon your faith you did not receive the word. What you are saying is there is one type of righteousness for faith and another for works...that is rubbish...

Yes, justified/vindicated/shown to be right...by their works. It's the same with our works in James chapter 2

.
what is the difference between accounted as right and shown as right? That should be by their faith with works.

If you sat we are accounted as righteous based on our faith without works then you contradict scripture. You refer to Romans 4 but that scripture is pointing to works of the law. And to those who think Abraham's faith was without works ...Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, [SUP]21 [/SUP]being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.

Isaac was not born by magic....

 

[Elin]

Rom 5:1-----justified by>>>>>>>>faith
Jam 2:24----justified by>>>>>>>>works

Since there is but one way to be saved/justified, no alternatives, then faith must be an obedient work.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

So "worketh" here in Rom 4:4 cannot include obedient works/faith. But does include works of merit.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Believeth/faith is an obedient work per Rom 5:1; James 2:24 above. So the works/faith cannot be included in the phrase "worketh not".

Your error is human logic in lieu of NT logic, and has been explained to you more times than I can remember.

It's not for lack of information, it's for lack of belief.

 

[homwardbound]

Your assumption of works and faith producing anything is.....??????
If works produced faith then men who work would be full of faith...
If faith produced works then no man with faith would have dead faith....
God gave us faith we do the work of faith....which is what we are supposed to do ...

Luke 17:9-10Living Bible (TLB)
[SUP]7-9 [/SUP]When a servant comes in from plowing or taking care of sheep, he doesn’t just sit down and eat, but first prepares his master’s meal and serves him his supper before he eats his own. And he is not even thanked, for he is merely doing what he is supposed to do. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Just so, if you merely obey me, you should not consider yourselves worthy of praise. For you have simply done your duty!”



It is God who reveals Christ to us....
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

God draws us...
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

"Quote" If faith produced works then no man with faith would have dead faith.... "Quote" by you Newbirth


Yep you got it no man with God given Faith is dead. If not God-given, then faith is dead.
If not God given then the faith works are of self, and dead, yet that man will boast, and be in need to be buffeted, as like in 2 Cor. 12 from Paul himself to us if we think we know are high and mighty, one might need to buffeted, you think?

 

[homwardbound]

Newbirth, God just love you, period, respond to that and see what changes

 

[mailmandan]

here you are saying you have to do works...and I agree

To demonstrate that your faith is alive, not cause your faith to become alive in good works.

now you are saying faith produces works these are two different things....the scripture did not say faith produces works... it says faith without works, so the opposite would be faith with works...

You still don't get it. What produces good works? A living faith or a dead faith? What produces fruit? A living tree or a dead tree?

That is because you are waiting for faith to produce good works... the scripture says you have to do good works... if you change a blown out tire and put on a good tire, you don't wait fo that tire to become good it is good. You have put on Christ you know what is good.
We are saved by grace... not genuine saving faith...you are changing the word...

We have been made alive together with Christ by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5). This faith is alive in Christ. There is also a dead faith that claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead. I'm not changing the word. James 2:15 - If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? This is not accomplished a split second after we have been made alive together with Christ by grace through faith and James does not mean that Ephesians 2:5 does not become a reality until we accomplish good works. James is discussing the proof of faith (I will show you my faith by my works) not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God through faith in Christ.

You have separated faith from works..

Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. In that regard, they are separate. Yet no fruit would demonstrate no root. In that regard they are not separate.

.is James talking about a different faith from Paul?...No it is the same faith...One faith...faith without works is dead. I am telling you if you did not act upon your faith you did not receive the word. What you are saying is there is one type of righteousness for faith and another for works...that is rubbish...

Paul and James are simply describing the same faith (saving faith in Christ) from two different perspectives. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Paul) yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works (James).

what is the difference between accounted as right and shown as right? That should be by their faith with works.

We are accounted as righteous based on our faith and not our works (Romans 4:2-6) yet we show our faith by our works (James 2:14-18). That does not equate to saved through faith and works.

If you sat we are accounted as righteous based on our faith without works then you contradict scripture.

No contradiction Romans 4:2-6. The works follow as the proof of salvation, not the means of salvation.

You refer to Romans 4 but that scripture is pointing to works of the law.

Which covers the moral aspect of the law, love God and your neighbor as yourself, which cannot be detached from good works.

And to those who think Abraham's faith was without works ...Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead.[SUP]20 [/SUP]Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, [SUP]21 [/SUP]being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works (many years after being accounted as righteous through faith) "shown to be righteous."

 

[newbirth]

"Quote" If faith produced works then no man with faith would have dead faith.... "Quote" by you Newbirth


Yep you got it no man with God given Faith is dead. If not God-given, then faith is dead.
If not God given then the faith works are of self, and dead, yet that man will boast, and be in need to be buffeted, as like in 2 Cor. 12 from Paul himself to us if we think we know are high and mighty, one might need to buffeted, you think?

Then why would James be telling a bunch of believers faith without works is dead? You are writing your own bible .....the scripture I read says faith without works is dead....The faith I am talking about comes from hearing the word of God...The same faith James is talking about....that faith without works is dead.

 

[newbirth]

To demonstrate that your faith is alive, not cause your faith to become alive in good works.

The scripture does not teach that...the scripture teaches faith without works is dead....the flip side would be faith with works is alive. There is no demonstration here it is either you have faith with works or faith without works...which is it?

You still don't get it. What produces good works? A living faith or a dead faith? What produces fruit? A living tree or a dead tree?

Don't get what, you want faith to be a works factory it is not..You have faith, it is you....... either you work or you don't work...

We have been made alive together with Christ by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5). This faith is alive in Christ. There is also a dead faith that claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead. I'm not changing the word. James 2:15 - If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? This is not accomplished a split second after we have been made alive together with Christ by grace through faith and James does not mean that Ephesians 2:5 does not become a reality until we accomplish good works. James is discussing the proof of faith (I will show you my faith by my works) not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God through faith in Christ.

To believe in Christ is to accept his teachings also, if you don't know what Christ expect of you ,then you need to study his teachings. How can you make that statement as if you don't know what is right and what is wrong. By faith you believe God changed you into a new creature but yet you say this is not accomplished now...if not now when? There is only one faith and it is faith in Christ. Not one faith in Christ and one faith for works....You believe in Christ so you do for the brother or sister as you believe Christ would have done...That is what it means to believe in Christ...That is showing faith by works...

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works (many years after being accounted as righteous through faith) "shown to be righteous."

But Abraham always believed and obeyed God...In ch 15 God made a covenant with him...Why because Abraham asked him to confirm his words...[SUP]8 [/SUP]And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?...that is faith...

Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: [SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

clearly you do not believe in the obedience of faith...
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

 

[homwardbound]

Then why would James be telling a bunch of believers faith without works is dead? You are writing your own bible .....the scripture I read says faith without works is dead....The faith I am talking about comes from hearing the word of God...The same faith James is talking about....that faith without works is dead.

So sorry you apparently do not see that works are the by-product of Faith in the finished work of Yeshua for you
"IT IS FINISHED" John 19:30

 

[homwardbound]

Newbirth ? for you, do you believe by Christ at the cross we. you are forgiven, that it is done? Or do you think you have to work to maintain forgiveness?

 

[mailmandan]

The scripture does not teach that...the scripture teaches faith without works is dead....the flip side would be faith with works is alive.

You misinterpret "faith without works is dead" to mean that dead faith produces works in order to become alive as if the works themselves are the source of life in faith. You read James 2:14 as if it says what good is it if a man actually has faith but just has not yet produced any works, can that faith save him? But James said claims or says he has have faith but has no works. Can that faith save him? James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

There is no demonstration here it is either you have faith with works or faith without works...which is it?

Works are certainly the demonstrative evidence that our faith is genuine and the lack of works demonstrates an empty profession of faith. I will SHOW you my faith by my works (James 2:18). If you have genuine faith then it will be followed by good works. Living faith produces good works, just as a living tree produces fruit. A dead faith produces no good works just as a dead tree produces no fruit. A phrase that James could have coined is, "the absence of evidence could be construed as evidence of absence."

Don't get what, you want faith to be a works factory it is not..You have faith, it is you....... either you work or you don't work...

What do good works demonstrate about faith and what do a lack of works demonstrate about claiming to have faith? You want salvation by works, but we are saved through faith, not works, yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works. Again, I ask you: What produces good works? A living faith or a dead faith? What produces fruit? A living tree or a dead tree?

To believe in Christ is to accept his teachings also, if you don't know what Christ expect of you ,then you need to study his teachings. How can you make that statement as if you don't know what is right and what is wrong. By faith you believe God changed you into a new creature but yet you say this is not accomplished now...if not now when? There is only one faith and it is faith in Christ. Not one faith in Christ and one faith for works....You believe in Christ so you do for the brother or sister as you believe Christ would have done...That is what it means to believe in Christ...That is showing faith by works...

To believe in Christ is to entrust our spiritual well being to Christ. Trust exclusively in Him for salvation. Faith in works is not faith in Christ. Believing in salvation by works is not accepting His teachings (John 6:28-29). To believe in Christ is to trust in Him for salvation. Showing our faith by our works is the evidence, not the essence of believing in Christ.

But Abraham always believed and obeyed God...

But when does the Bible say that Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness? Right from the beginning or not until Genesis 15:6? When did Abraham set out out to sacrifice Isaac? Before or many years after his faith was already accounted to him for righteousness?

clearly you do not believe in the obedience of faith...

Why would you say that? Because I don't believe in salvation by works? Is that how you interpret obedience of faith?

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Paul's mission, as he perceived it, was to bring people to saving faith in Christ, which in turn, would motivate one to express and evidence that saving faith in appropriate fashion. Obedience flows from a heart that is saved. Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as “obeying the gospel” (Romans 10:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were consistently obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR or UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR or UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Romans 1:5, Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced multiple acts of obedience. We have access by FAITH into GRACE.. (Romans 5:2) not faith “and obedience.” We are saved through faith first, then “unto” obedience (works).
So Romans 16:26 does not teach salvation through faith + obedience (works).

 

[newbirth]

Newbirth, God just love you, period, respond to that and see what changes

thank you.....

 

[newbirth]

You misinterpret "faith without works is dead" to mean that dead faith produces works in order to become alive as if the works themselves are the source of life in faith. You read James 2:14 as if it says what good is it if a man actually has faith but just has not yet produced any works, can that faith save him? But James said claims or says he has have faith but has no works. Can that faith save him? James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Why are you babbling? You now have to put your own twist to the word...so you have to wait for faith to produce works in you to give a brother food or clothes...The scripture teaches faith without works is dead....just as the body without the spirit is dead....before you received the HS you were dead now you have the HS you are alive in Christ...same as faith without works is dead.

Works are certainly the demonstrative evidence that our faith is genuine and the lack of works demonstrates an empty profession of faith. I will SHOW you my faith by my works (James 2:18). If you have genuine faith then it will be followed by good works. Living faith produces good works, just as a living tree produces fruit. A dead faith produces no good works just as a dead tree produces no fruit. A phrase that James could have coined is, "the absence of evidence could be construed as evidence of absence."

works demonstrate evidence of faith ....lack of works demonstrate evidence of dead faith....no need to go on babbling about genuine or living or producing faith...but James did not coin that phrase did he? ...what he said was faith without works is dead... It is like seeing a living person , one does not say, Look a living man....but if one sees a corpse he says, Look a dead man. If you feed the brethren one would say he has faith , if you refuse to feed the brethren one would say he has dead faith...

What do good works demonstrate about faith and what do a lack of works demonstrate about claiming to have faith? You want salvation by works, but we are saved through faith, not works, yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works. Again, I ask you: What produces good works? A living faith or a dead faith? What produces fruit? A living tree or a dead tree?

You want me to want to be saved by works yet I never allude to that ...we are saved by grace....through faith...and faith without works is dead..,.You have to do good works, because God said so and you believe him...

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

To believe in Christ is to entrust our spiritual well being to Christ. Trust exclusively in Him for salvation. Faith in works is not faith in Christ. Believing in salvation by works is not accepting His teachings (John 6:28-29). To believe in Christ is to trust in Him for salvation. Showing our faith by our works is the evidence, not the essence of believing in Christ.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

But when does the Bible say that Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness? Right from the beginning or not until Genesis 15:6? When did Abraham set out out to sacrifice Isaac? Before or many years after his faith was already accounted to him for righteousness?

you bring Abraham into the picture without understanding Abraham was a man of action...when God said 'Go' he believed and went...

Why would you say that? Because I don't believe in salvation by works? Is that how you interpret obedience of faith?

can you show where I said salvation is by works

Paul's mission, as he perceived it, was to bring people to saving faith in Christ, which in turn, would motivate one to express and evidence that saving faith in appropriate fashion. Obedience flows from a heart that is saved. Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as “obeying the gospel” (Romans 10:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were consistently obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR or UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR or UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Romans 1:5, Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced multiple acts of obedience. We have access by FAITH into GRACE.. (Romans 5:2) not faith “and obedience.” We are saved through faith first, then “unto” obedience (works).
So Romans 16:26 does not teach salvation through faith + obedience (works)

Maybe you have not been reading what I have been writing.....
.

you are confusing yourself...(Obedience flows from a heart that is saved...your words)if this is so, then you cannot disobey...we have to choose to obey God's word

(to bring about transformed lives that were consistently obedient to God......your quote) this shows you have a choice to obey and you did....From the moment you repented and was baptised for the remission of sins, were they not obedience in accordance to faith? They were acts of faith so faith without works is dead.

 

[mailmandan]

Why are you babbling?

All along I've been explaining, not babbling. If what I have been explaining to you merely comes across as babble, then you have an issue with interpretation.

You now have to put your own twist to the word...so you have to wait for faith to produce works in you to give a brother food or clothes...

I don't wait on faith as if it's not my faith working through love that results in me giving a brother food or clothes. I don't give a brother food or clothes from a dead faith in order to establish a living faith. I was made alive together with Christ first, saved by grace through faith, created in Christ Jesus, then unto good works. Good works flow from a living faith, not a dead faith.

The scripture teaches faith without works is dead....

In context, claims to have faith but has no works (James 2:14), which means such a person has an empty profession of faith, a dead faith, not a living faith. What is the demonstrative evidence that our faith is alive and not dead? It results in works. I will SHOW you my faith by my works. SHOW, not establish. James is not saying that our faith is dead until we give a brother food or clothes but we demonstrate that our faith is dead by not giving a brother food or clothes, but instead tell them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but we do not give them the things which are needed for the body.

just as the body without the spirit is dead....

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Gr pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life.

before you received the HS you were dead now you have the HS you are alive in Christ...

Amen! So what is the source of life in my faith? The Holy Spirit or good works?

same as faith without works is dead.

No it's not the same. James is discussing the proof of faith (I will SHOW you my faith by my works) not the initial act of receiving Christ through faith and receiving the Holy Spirit prior to doing good works. You are making works the source of life in faith just as the Holy Spirit is the source of spiritual life. You continue to misunderstand what James means by faith without works is dead and put the cart before the horse.

no need to go on babbling about genuine or living or producing faith...

I'm explaining, not babbling. Why do you continue to misunderstand?

but James did not coin that phrase did he?

It doesn't matter because that is the point that James is making and you keep missing it.

...what he said was faith without works is dead...

And you keep misinterpreting that to mean dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith. That is the same logic as saying a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree. The source of life flows through the root (faith) and produces the works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit would demonstrate no root.

It is like seeing a living person , one does not say, Look a living man....but if one sees a corpse he says, Look a dead man.

As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life.

If you feed the brethren one would say he has faith, if you refuse to feed the brethren one would say he has dead faith...

Feeding the brethren is showing our faith by our works and refusing to feed the brethren is showing our lack of faith. Focus really hard on the words "I will SHOW you my faith by my works" in James 2:18 and also the words "SAYS OR CLAIMS to have faith, but has no works" in James 2:14.

You want me to want to be saved by works yet I never allude to that

Your arguments demonstrate otherwise.

...we are saved by grace....through faith...and faith without works is dead..,.

Which you misinterpret as saved through faith and works.

You have to do good works, because God said so and you believe him...

There it is. Have to do good works. We must do good works in order to be saved or we will do good works if we are truly saved? Which is it? Doing good works is not forced or legalistic for the genuine believer who's faith works through love.

you are confusing yourself...(Obedience flows from a heart that is saved...your words)

How am I confused? Does obedience flow from a heart that is NOT saved? Think about it.

if this is so, then you cannot disobey...we have to choose to obey God's word

This does not mean that we never disobey God at all (we are not sinless and perfect), but genuine obedience (doing good works) flows from a heart that is saved, not a heart that is unsaved. Good works glorify God in heaven, but they are not the means of our salvation. They are the fruit of salvation.

you bring Abraham into the picture without understanding Abraham was a man of action...when God said 'Go' he believed and went...

I understand that about Abraham. But why was he a man of action? Was his actions accounted to him for righteousness or was his faith accounted to him for righteousness? (Romans 4:2-6).

can you show where I said salvation is by works

If that's not what you are saying, then why do you continue to disagree with me about James 2:14-26?

(to bring about transformed lives that were consistently obedient to God......your quote) this shows you have a choice to obey and you did....From the moment you repented and was baptised for the remission of sins,

I received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit upon repentance/faith (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; Ephesians 1:13) prior to water baptism and choosing to be water baptized was an act of obedience that followed afterwards.

were they not obedience in accordance to faith? They were acts of faith so faith without works is dead.

Repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and water baptism is an act of obedience that follows placing our faith in Christ for salvation. Acts of faith demonstrate that our faith is not dead.

 

[newbirth]

Do not boast in your good works or good deeds for it is not you that these good deeds happen, it is Christ in you that has caused the growth or work.

Well I don't think anyone is boasting of works...but as you say it is Christ in us doing the work....so it shows those with no works has not Christ working in them.

 

[newbirth]

I don't wait on faith as if it's not my faith working through love that results in me giving a brother food or clothes. I don't give a brother food or clothes from a dead faith in order to establish a living faith. I was made alive together with Christ first, saved by grace through faith, created in Christ Jesus, then unto good works. Good works flow from a living faith, not a dead faith.

we work because we have faith if we do not work we kill faith. Faith without work is dead

In context, claims to have faith but has no works (James 2:14), which means such a person has an empty profession of faith, a dead faith, not a living faith. What is the demonstrative evidence that our faith is alive and not dead? It results in works. I will SHOW you my faith by my works. SHOW, not establish. James is not saying that our faith is dead until we give a brother food or clothes but we demonstrate that our faith is dead by not giving a brother food or clothes, but instead tell them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but we do not give them the things which are needed for the body.

God gives us faith ,not an empty profession of faith, when we act on faith it grows, we don't act we kill faith

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Gr pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life.

The body without God spirit is dead,but still moving around. Likewise anyone can say they have faith but without works it is dead.

Amen! So what is the source of life in my faith? The Holy Spirit or good works?

Faith comes by hearing the word. We must be doers of the word not hearers only.

No it's not the same. James is discussing the proof of faith (I will SHOW you my faith by my works) not the initial act of receiving Christ through faith and receiving the Holy Spirit prior to doing good works. You are making works the source of life in faith just as the Holy Spirit is the source of spiritual life. You continue to misunderstand what James means by faith without works is dead and put the cart before the horse.

When you heard the word and faith came alive in you ...what did you do?

And you keep misinterpreting that to mean dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith. That is the same logic as saying a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree. The source of life flows through the root (faith) and produces the works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit would demonstrate no root.

As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life.

it is you who keep saying faith produces ....I say you have faith to do the work

Feeding the brethren is showing our faith by our works and refusing to feed the brethren is showing our lack of faith. Focus really hard on the words "I will SHOW you my faith by my works" in James 2:18 and also the words "SAYS OR CLAIMS to have faith, but has no works" in James 2:14.

refusing to feed the brethren is dead faith ...James did not say lack of faith he said dead faith

Your arguments demonstrate otherwise.
Which you misinterpret as saved through faith and works.

I misinterpret nothing ...we are saved by grace through faith...which is different from saved through faith...It is by Grace

There it is. Have to do good works. We must do good works in order to be saved or we will do good works if we are truly saved? Which is it? Doing good works is not forced or legalistic for the genuine believer who's faith works through love.

if you are created unto good works and you are not doing good works it means one of two things disobedience or ignorance...

How am I confused? Does obedience flow from a heart that is NOT saved? Think about it.

If you believe you will obey...if you don't obey you are either disobedient or ignorant

This does not mean that we never disobey God at all (we are not sinless and perfect), but genuine obedience (doing good works) flows from a heart that is saved, not a heart that is unsaved. Good works glorify God in heaven, but they are not the means of our salvation. They are the fruit of salvation.

when we sin we are either disobedient or ignorant

I understand that about Abraham. But why was he a man of action? Was his actions accounted to him for righteousness or was his faith accounted to him for righteousness? (Romans 4:2-6).

He was a man of action because he was obedient and not ignorant

If that's not what you are saying, then why do you continue to disagree with me about James 2:14-26?

because you are either disobedient or ignorant

I received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit upon repentance/faith (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; Ephesians 1:13) prior to water baptism and choosing to be water baptized was an act of obedience that followed afterwards.

you see you were obedient continue in your obedience

Repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and water baptism is an act of obedience that follows placing our faith in Christ for salvation. Acts of faith demonstrate that our faith is not dead.

Don't start that with me faith comes by hearing how can you repent before you hear to get faith?

And the scripture still says faith without works is dead....

 

[mailmandan]

we work because we have faith

Amen! Because we have faith, not to establish faith.

if we do not work we kill faith. Faith without work is dead

No, James said nothing about killing faith by not working. He said says/claims to have faith but has no works. No evidence that faith is alive means that faith is dead.

God gives us faith, not an empty profession of faith, when we act on faith it grows, we don't act we kill faith

Where did James say this? This is not the point that James is making. Stay focused.

The body without God spirit is dead, but still moving around. Likewise anyone can say they have faith but without works it is dead.

Says they have faith but have no works to validate their claim, demonstrate they have a dead faith.

Faith comes by hearing the word. We must be doers of the word not hearers only.

Do those who claim to have faith but are not doers of the word, but instead do nothing, validate their claim by doing nothing?

When you heard the word and faith came alive in you ...what did you do?

The first thing I did was praise God and thank Jesus for saving me! The next morning I shared the gospel with my entire family and was water baptized at church. I then went on to read the Old Testament twice and the New Testament eight times in the first year after my conversion. I was hungry for the word! To make a long story short, I've been following the Lord ever since.

it is you who keep saying faith produces ....I say you have faith to do the work

Work is done out of faith. That equates to faith produces.

refusing to feed the brethren is dead faith ...James did not say lack of faith he said dead faith

That is a lack of genuine faith that is alive in Christ, which is dead faith.

I misinterpret nothing ...we are saved by grace through faith...which is different from saved through faith...It is by Grace

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.

if you are created unto good works and you are not doing good works it means one of two things disobedience or ignorance...

Or you have not yet been created in Christ Jesus unto good works because you have not yet been saved by grace through faith. Saved but does nothing is an oxymoron. All genuine Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

If you believe you will obey...if you don't obey you are either disobedient or ignorant

Believe but never obey is an oxymoron.

when we sin we are either disobedient or ignorant

None of us are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless.

He was a man of action because he was obedient and not ignorant

Because he believed.

because you are either disobedient or ignorant

Maybe you need to look in the mirror.

you see you were obedient continue in your obedience

Sure, why would I not?

Don't start that with me faith comes by hearing how can you repent before you hear to get faith?

I didn't say we repent or have faith before we hear. Hearing precedes repentance/faith.

And the scripture still says faith without works is dead....

And it also says says/claims to have faith but has no works...I will show you my faith by my works. Back when James lived, there were people "claiming" to have faith, just like there are today. Unfortunately, there was no evidence in their lives that they were really saved. They may claim to have faith but rather than it being genuine saving faith in Jesus Christ it is a "dead faith" which is demonstrated by the lack of good works (James 2:14-20). There are those same people around today. We give evidence of our faith by our actions (good works). Thus, one can say he has faith, but it is dead without works to back it up. If you say you are saved and continue to do things contrary to the commands and principles contained in the Word of God, then who is going to believe you? If you were put on trial for being a Christian, would there be any evidence to convict you? Once we have been genuinely saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, our life will show it (James 2:18).

 

[newbirth]

No, James said nothing about killing faith by not working. He said says/claims to have faith but has no works. No evidence that faith is alive means that faith is dead.

If faith without works is dead and you are responsible for the works by you not working you have killed faith

Where did James say this? This is not the point that James is making. Stay focused.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Says they have faith but have no works to validate their claim, demonstrate they have a dead faith.

faith non the less ..that cannot save

Do those who claim to have faith but are not doers of the word, but instead do nothing, validate their claim by doing nothing?

They think their faith alone is enough

The first thing I did was praise God and thank Jesus for saving me! The next morning I shared the gospel with my entire family and was water baptized at church. I then went on to read the Old Testament twice and the New Testament eight times in the first year after my conversion. I was hungry for the word! To make a long story short, I've been following the Lord ever since.

so you were baptised in obedience to the faith in accordance with the word...which is faith with works

Work is done out of faith. That equates to faith produces.

if faith produces then we have no control over it, if this is so when faith does not produce it is not our fault. Faith comes by hearing, we believe what we hear so we do what we hear

That is a lack of genuine faith that is alive in Christ, which is dead faith.

Faith needs to be alive in us

Or you have not yet been created in Christ Jesus unto good works because you have not yet been saved by grace through faith. Saved but does nothing is an oxymoron. All genuine Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

that is your response to....if you are created unto good works and you are not doing good works it means one of two things disobedience or ignorance...

Believe but never obey is an oxymoron.

Don't think I said never...If you believe you will obey...if you don't obey you are either disobedient or ignorant

None of us are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless.

Don't think I said those things either...when we sin we are either disobedient or ignorant

Because he believed.

and he was obedient

Maybe you need to look in the mirror.

I do

I didn't say we repent or have faith before we hear. Hearing precedes repentance/faith.

.you are saying repentance comes before faith.....And we know faith comes by hearing, so you are saying repentance comes before hearing.This is your quote...
Repentance actually precedes(comes before) saving faith in Christ and water baptism is an act of obedience that follows placing our faith in Christ for salvation. Acts of faith demonstrate that our faith is not dead.

And it also says says/claims to have faith but has no works...I will show you my faith by my works. Back when James lived, there were people "claiming" to have faith, just like there are today. Unfortunately, there was no evidence in their lives that they were really saved. They may claim to have faith but rather than it being genuine saving faith in Jesus Christ it is a "dead faith" which is demonstrated by the lack of good works (James 2:14-20). There are those same people around today. We give evidence of our faith by our actions (good works). Thus, one can say he has faith, but it is dead without works to back it up. If you say you are saved and continue to do things contrary to the commands and principles contained in the Word of God, then who is going to believe you? If you were put on trial for being a Christian, would there be any evidence to convict you? Once we have been genuinely saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, our life will show it (James 2:18)

.
And that is the faith that saves...faith with works ...so now we both agree with the word...

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

 

[mailmandan]

you are saying repentance comes before faith.....And we know faith comes by hearing, so you are saying repentance comes before hearing.This is your quote...

We first hear the word before we repent and believe the gospel. I never said that repentance comes before hearing.

Repentance actually precedes(comes before) saving faith in Christ and water baptism is an act of obedience that follows placing our faith in Christ for salvation. Acts of faith demonstrate that our faith is not dead.

We hear the word first, then we repent "change our mind" about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Water baptism and other acts of obedience follow faith and conversion.

And that is the faith that saves...faith with works ...so now we both agree with the word...

The faith that saves is a living faith that is evidenced by good works. Someone who claims to have faith, but has no works simply has a dead faith evidenced by a lack of good works. Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit would demonstrate no root. I can't explain it any clearer than this so if you still don't get it, I can't help you any further.