Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

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The point I am trying to make is that both grape juice with added yeast and crushed grapes both take several days to forment so as to intoxicate you. Again, please enlighten us on the average amount of time crushed grapes takes to forment naturally so as to intoxicate you. Please provide sources. Because I am not going to just take your word for it.
If you are of legal drinking age and if you do not have a problem with alcohol, go buy some grape juice - a bottle at room temperature. Just a normal bottle of welch's grape juice or whatever. Also buy a packet of yeast - the kind used in bread. Open the packet of yeast and put it in the bottle of grape juice. Close the grape juice, but not too tight to prevent air from getting out. You will find that it will start fermenting within half a day or so. It will 'boil' rapidly within 24-48 hours. Even in a cool environment, the 'boil' will slow down by the end of the week.

You can do this for yourself and that process will take much longer than the natural process they used in Israel.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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I think I have made it pretty clear this how durn topic.No, it takes 3-7 days to complete primary fermentation of sterile grape juices in a modern temperature controlled room using modern yeast cultures.Today wine is made by basically sterilizing yeast and introducing a very carefully prepared and selected strain of yeast. Of course, if you dump 2 or 5 or 10 vials above what you should, the wine will ferment much faster, but that's rather wasteful.It all depends. If you squeeze grapes, then the yeast given in that environment and given the time of making wine will convert most of the sugars in a day or two. Grape juice when fermenting will 'boil'. CO2 and alcohol with be produced so fast that it will look like the juice is boiling on stove, even though it is at room temperature.If you are asking if Jesus produced grape juice at the wedding of Cana, then the answer is no, there would hardly be any alcohol present in it. However, from the account of John 2, it is clear Jesus did not make grape juice. The head waiter noticed that it was fine wine. It would be shocking for someone to offer grape juice. Let me explain this - when they made wine, the yeast that reproduced and consumed the wine was random. In the fall, the grapes were ripe for picking. There was this brief period of time when you should pick grapes. So you picked them, squeezed them, and put the juice in jars. They had no idea that invisible organisms were inside the juice. The juice quickly fermented into wine. Within a few days, the wine was as alcoholic as any normal modern wine. Some wines had nice tasting yeasts. Other jars of wine had yeast that creating undesired flavors.So when you had a big function, you'd first serve the best tasting wine, and then the cheaper, lesser tasting wines. Within the last few centuries, labs have been able to select and bred yeast strains that taste good. Modern wine makers kill off all the natural yeasts within wine. They do not want random wines, they want wines produced by the variety of yeast they like best.
You are not giving me a set amount of days here. I am only concerned about one thing. What is the average amount of time do you think it would take for the two water sized containers that Jesus filled to naturally ferment into an intoxicating beverage if it was freshly crushed grape juice? 1 day? 2 days? 3 days? 4 days? 5 days? 6 days? 7 days?
 
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Believers care about the truths in the Bible. In fact, this is important topic to get right because it is a moral issue. For depending on what side you choose, you are either choosing to glorify Jesus Christ or you are choosing to glorify an intoxicating liquid beverage.

It doesn't matter what you do, but how you do it

You could be right and speak the truth, but if it's not don in the right way, it's wrong

This seems to be this whole post - it's ridiculous, if that's your conviction go for it and live it out, but it's not a salvation issue, it's not even a sanctification issue. Your trying to turn it into a sanctification issue because of your little conviction, which is legalism the more you pursue it.

You start with your conviction, then look for scriptures to back it up, and do a pretend Exegesis to prove you are right

That is a logical fallacy of affirming the consequent IF drinking alcohol is wrong, then I will find it's wrong in the bible.

I find it's wrong in the bible, therefore drinking is wrong

I can do the same thing with this statement - If drinking alcohol is not wrong, then I will find that it's not wrong in the bible

It's not wrong in the bible, therefore it's not wrong


The err in this reasoning is that you already believe it's wrong, so you look for evidence and interpret evidence to prove yourself right

no matter what someone says to you, you are right... how about a little more correct reasoning on your part - Logic
 
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You are not giving me a set amount of days here. I am only concerned about one thing. What is the average amount of time do you think it would take for the two water sized containers that Jesus filled to naturally ferment into an intoxicating beverage if it was freshly crushed grape juice? 1 day? 2 days? 3 days? 4 days? 5 days? 6 days? 7 days?
It would depend on the temperature and the amount of yeast in those jars. Again, your question assumes Jesus made grape juice, not wine, but John 2 makes it clear it is wine.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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The sad thing is no one wants to talk about the spiritual meaning of the story...
 
Jul 25, 2013
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let me know i'f i'm understanding this right - you filled a container with grapes stored in a cool dark place, and then had nothing else to eat for some days but the grapes, from the top of the container down, freshest to oldest, right?

if that's true, there's two things going on i think -
one is the grapes and one is the lack of other food.

about the grapes - when they're picked, their skin is broken where they had been attached to the vine, unless you cut the vine. they were off-the vine, so there was in fact broken skin even if you hadn't mashed them. so oxygen & ambient yeast could reach the meat of the grapes.
they weren't frozen, so some yeasts were probably active, and in fact there was probably some measurable alcohol content in the grapes after a week. not very much, but i believe probably non-zero. the probably has a lot to do with how much yeast was on or around the grapes, and lessened by the temperature and the fact that very little of the grapes were exposed. i think it's probable with sensitive equipment you would find trace amounts of alcohol in any overripe grape, unless it had been specially treated to kill yeast and then kept from further sources of it.

about the malnutrition - every food or drink you ingest, even pure water has some chemical and/or physical effect on your body. you've never ingested anything in your life that wasn't a drug, except maybe arguably some inert noble gas. i'm averse to breathing a bunch of neon to find out.. but the effects of foodstuff on your body are pronounced when your are in a malnourished state. it's my opinion that the sugars themselves in the grapes, more than the alcohol content, altered your state of being to a noticeable effect after several days without much to eat, especially if you'd not slept much during that time either. fast for a few days then eat a ripe grapefruit, i bet you'll feel something high -- and find that fruit is a thing to thank God for.
I do see what you are saying, however if you have ever peuked your guts out on mad dog 20/20 as much as I had in the past, you never forget the smell of wine/alcohol. Nor have I ever forgotten the smell of southern comfort. The smell turned my guts but I knew I could eat them and not be poisoned, so I did, reluctantly. And I do know the difference between a sugar high which is just being dizzy, and a high from alcohol. I have fasted most of my life whether of my will or against so my body and mind are well rehearsed in this life style.
 
Jul 25, 2013
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You are not giving me a set amount of days here. I am only concerned about one thing. What is the average amount of time do you think it would take for the two water sized containers that Jesus filled to naturally ferment into an intoxicating beverage if it was freshly crushed grape juice? 1 day? 2 days? 3 days? 4 days? 5 days? 6 days? 7 days?
Your problem is, you're not understanding, THIS WAS A MIRACLE, IT DIDN'T TAKE 1 TO 7 DAYS IT WAS DONE IN THE TIME IT TOOK AFTER THE POTS WERE FILLED AND THE MAN TASTING IT. Like right now. Miracle. The best wine, best wine.
 
Jun 5, 2014
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For I seriously doubt crushed grapes that ferment can intoxicate you in just 1 day. I say this because if Jesus made freshly squeezed grape juice, there would have been no time for his beverage to ferment to a point where it could intoxicate anyone.
Since you are so obsessed with the number of days, let me ask you this:

How long was the wedding feast at the wedding at Cana? How many days?

How long were many wedding feasts back in those days?

And another matter upon which I think we agree is, do you say that the first wine served up at the wedding at Cana was an intoxicating beverage?
 
Jun 5, 2014
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The sad thing is no one wants to talk about the spiritual meaning of the story...
You can thank yourself for that. And Jason0047 and StandingFirmInChrist.

We can't even get past issues where the preponderance of evidence, biblical and otherwise, is quite apparent.
 
Feb 7, 2013
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We are not talking about beer. We are talking about wine.
Sorry to say this, we not talking about grape juice here but a beverage commonly known as wine and is fermented and to some alcohol is added for quick availability for consumers . We are all liable to make mistakes and i have made many of them.

We are not against you but against deception of the flesh/carnality in all of us. The HOLY SPIRIT is the one who has justified this matter as the teacher and not us who are in the flesh/carnality still, tempted to twist all that is written.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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It doesn't matter what you do, but how you do it

You could be right and speak the truth, but if it's not don in the right way, it's wrong

This seems to be this whole post - it's ridiculous, if that's your conviction go for it and live it out, but it's not a salvation issue, it's not even a sanctification issue. Your trying to turn it into a sanctification issue because of your little conviction, which is legalism the more you pursue it.

You start with your conviction, then look for scriptures to back it up, and do a pretend Exegesis to prove you are right

That is a logical fallacy of affirming the consequent IF drinking alcohol is wrong, then I will find it's wrong in the bible.

I find it's wrong in the bible, therefore drinking is wrong

I can do the same thing with this statement - If drinking alcohol is not wrong, then I will find that it's not wrong in the bible

It's not wrong in the bible, therefore it's not wrong


The err in this reasoning is that you already believe it's wrong, so you look for evidence and interpret evidence to prove yourself right

no matter what someone says to you, you are right... how about a little more correct reasoning on your part - Logic
You obviously have not been following along the discussion of the thread. I said several times already that I am an Abstentionist. This means, that I believe we have a liberty in Christ Jesus to drink intoxicating beverages soberly and in moderation within the privacy of our own home. Just as I believe I can eat delicious unclean animals. However, such a liberty did not exist before the cross. I believe that while we do have a liberty in Christ, we as believers should not put our heads in the sand and ignore Scripture that warns about the dangers of alcohol (even though it is lawful). We as believers should always commend other believers if they are able to walk the higher road in abstaining in their love for Jesus Christ. However, what I have seen here is the exact opposite, though. The drink has become a god and not Jesus Christ. That is what I am fighting here. Not the liberty a believer has to drink, but the lifting up of a liquid beverage as if it was a god to be worshiped. It also comes down to a false image of how one views their Savior, too. Did Jesus love or not love at the Wedding of Cana? I am going to say that Jesus loved at the Wedding at Cana because He would not create a situation (So as to be written down for a struggling alcoholic to have a reason to defend his drink). Jesus is our shining and high example. He lived a perfect and sinless life. So to go against the warnings of strong drink in the OT and to make alcoholic wine is to paint an image of Christ that does not exist. It is to create another false god.
 
Jun 5, 2014
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That is what I am fighting here. Not the liberty a believer has to drink, but the lifting up of a liquid beverage as if it was a god to be worshiped.
Baloney. Your entire post.

Please provide via a quote something somebody said in this thread that is evidence of idol worship.

Disagreeing with you about what words/verses in the Bible mean, of course, doesn't count.

If you can't, I'm going to call you out for bearing false witness.

I'll tell you what idol worship really is. It's you and others like KJV1611 and your KJV-ONLY mentality.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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It would depend on the temperature and the amount of yeast in those jars. Again, your question assumes Jesus made grape juice, not wine, but John 2 makes it clear it is wine.
And your answer assumes that the word "wine" is always alcoholic when this is not the case as shown to us in the context when reading the Bible and by looking at historical documents thru out history, dictionaries, etc.

For fermentation is not a process of life but it is a process of death of the fruit with a micro organism feeding off it. In other words, God never created a process of decay and death ever within the Scriptures. God always creates life. Not death. Did God provide an already dead animal to Adam and Eve so as to give them a means to cover their nakedness? Or did God slay an innocent animal that he created for Adam and Eve? See, if what you say is true, then you would be able to find at least one other testimony in Scripture of God creating a process of death. However, we know death was not something that is of God. Death is something that was brought about by Adam and Eve; And we know death and Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Baloney. Your entire post.

Please provide via a quote something somebody said in this thread that is evidence of idol worship.

Disagreeing with you about what words/verses in the Bible mean, of course, doesn't count.

If you can't, I'm going to call you out for bearing false witness.

I'll tell you what idol worship really is. It's you and others like KJV1611 and your KJV-ONLY mentality.
It doesn't take a detective to figure out people's motivations. Every time someone here attacks another believer personally because of their defense of alcohol and or every time someone here tries to say that alcohol is good for you (and not dangerous) is glorifying a drink (or pleasure) and not Jesus Christ.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Baloney. Your entire post.

Please provide via a quote something somebody said in this thread that is evidence of idol worship.

Disagreeing with you about what words/verses in the Bible mean, of course, doesn't count.

If you can't, I'm going to call you out for bearing false witness.

I'll tell you what idol worship really is. It's you and others like KJV1611 and your KJV-ONLY mentality.
Why do you call me an idol worshiper because I recognize the KJV as the inerrant word of God?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Sorry to say this, we not talking about grape juice here but a beverage commonly known as wine and is fermented and to some alcohol is added for quick availability for consumers . We are all liable to make mistakes and i have made many of them.

We are not against you but against deception of the flesh/carnality in all of us. The HOLY SPIRIT is the one who has justified this matter as the teacher and not us who are in the flesh/carnality still, tempted to twist all that is written.
History, dictionaries, and the Bible teaches us that wine can be either fermented or unfermented. Unfermented meaning that the fermenting juice has not went thru the entire fermentation process yet. If you drink, and have no desire whatsoever to seek the truth objectively in the Bible on the warnings in the Bible against strong drink for the OT saints (And not the NT saint), and or in history, dictionaries, etc. then I am saying you are biased to what you want to see (And you are not being entirely honest with yourself). For how many believers who have abstained from alcohol actually believed that the wine Jesus made was intoxicating? My guess is not many.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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You can thank yourself for that. And Jason0047 and StandingFirmInChrist.

We can't even get past issues where the preponderance of evidence, biblical and otherwise, is quite apparent.
I have mentioned how the spiritual meaning behind this story is about how the Jews could not go back to washing themselves with their Old Testament ways with the water in the ceremonial washing jars that Jesus used so as to make the new unfermented wine that comes from the cluster of the grape. For the unfermented wine repents his pure blood (Which brings life and not death or decay) so as to wash away our sins. For the Scriptures mention how there is the pure blood of the grape. Jesus blood was pure. The wine that he made was unfermented and pure. For yeast was added to bread. Yeast is a type of sin. Yeast is naturally forming on the grape, but it does not make an intoxicating beverage instantly. The yeast on the skin of the grapes has to interact with the sugars inside the grape and then it takes time to ferment. This process is yeast building process which is also involved in making leavened bread. Yeast is sin. Yes, Jesus who knew no sin was made to be sin for us. But the Spirit of Christ (second peson of the Godhead) never was actually made unholy or sinful. Jesus merely took on our our sin within HIS BODY so as to be pay the price for our sins. His blood came back to life at his resurrection. New life. His blood was pure when he had risen. This blood can cleanse you, me, and everyone else. A blood that is not sinful. His blood cannot be sinful or a representation of a yeast building sin like process.
 
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