Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jun 5, 2014
1,750
6
0
If your the expert why don't you enlighten us? But if you do, please back up your knowledge with other sources.
I don't need to provide other sources.

The sources you provided contain the answer.

You should actually read the material you are linking to.

(For those who forgot, the question is what do you get when FULLY FERMENT COMPLETELY is really over. And it ain't over until the fat lady sings. FULLY FERMENT COMPLETELY is Jason0047 lingo, although at times he uses FORMENT. I have no idea what FORMENT means, and Jason0047 has no idea what FERMENT means, at least not FULLY FERMENT COMPLETELY).
 
Jun 5, 2014
1,750
6
0
Something the Lord showed me concerning Proverbs 23:31-32...
What did the Lord show you about Song of Solomon?

Song of Solomon 4:10: "How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!" (KJV)

Do you think wine (yayin) in that verse is an alcoholic beverage?

Or is "how much better is thy love than grape juice!" a better translation?
 
Aug 28, 2013
955
11
0
What did the Lord show you about Song of Solomon?

Song of Solomon 4:10: "How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!" (KJV)

Do you think wine (yayin) in that verse is an alcoholic beverage?

Or is "how much better is thy love than grape juice!" a better translation?
Wine is the right word. Unfortunately, you guys only see wine through alcohol clouded glasses.
 
Jun 5, 2014
1,750
6
0
Wine is the right word. Unfortunately, you guys only see wine through alcohol clouded glasses.
Dude, I'm not a dentist. Why make this like pulling teeth?

Is the word "wine" in SoS 4:10 referring to an alcoholic or a nonalcoholic beverage?

C'mon, you can say one or the other. It's so easy a caveman can do it.
 
Aug 28, 2013
955
11
0
Dude, I'm not a dentist. Why make this like pulling teeth?

Is the word "wine" in SoS 4:10 referring to an alcoholic or a nonalcoholic beverage?

C'mon, you can say one or the other. It's so easy a caveman can do it.
A caveman? A man that clubs women and drags them off to his home? Obvious not the man I'd ask for marriage advice, much less wine advice.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,405
16,346
113
69
Tennessee
New Age Translation John 2:9-10 - When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made grape juice, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew) the master of the feast called the bridegroom. And he said to him, "Every man at the beginning sets out the good grape juice, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good grape juice until now!"
 
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
35
0
You obviously have not been following along the discussion of the thread. I said several times already that I am an Abstentionist. This means, that I believe we have a liberty in Christ Jesus to drink intoxicating beverages soberly and in moderation within the privacy of our own home. Just as I believe I can eat delicious unclean animals. However, such a liberty did not exist before the cross. I believe that while we do have a liberty in Christ, we as believers should not put our heads in the sand and ignore Scripture that warns about the dangers of alcohol (even though it is lawful). We as believers should always commend other believers if they are able to walk the higher road in abstaining in their love for Jesus Christ. However, what I have seen here is the exact opposite, though. The drink has become a god and not Jesus Christ. That is what I am fighting here. Not the liberty a believer has to drink, but the lifting up of a liquid beverage as if it was a god to be worshiped. It also comes down to a false image of how one views their Savior, too. Did Jesus love or not love at the Wedding of Cana? I am going to say that Jesus loved at the Wedding at Cana because He would not create a situation (So as to be written down for a struggling alcoholic to have a reason to defend his drink). Jesus is our shining and high example. He lived a perfect and sinless life. So to go against the warnings of strong drink in the OT and to make alcoholic wine is to paint an image of Christ that does not exist. It is to create another false god.

then wow you must be an expert on futility here lol - talk about a waste of time - i feel bad for you
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,405
16,346
113
69
Tennessee
What did the Lord show you about Song of Solomon?

Song of Solomon 4:10: "How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!" (KJV)

Do you think wine (yayin) in that verse is an alcoholic beverage?

Or is "how much better is thy love than grape juice!" a better translation?
We are on the same page on this thread Jack.
 
Feb 7, 2013
1,276
21
0
History, dictionaries, and the Bible teaches us that wine can be either fermented or unfermented. Unfermented meaning that the fermenting juice has not went thru the entire fermentation process yet. If you drink, and have no desire whatsoever to seek the truth objectively in the Bible on the warnings in the Bible against strong drink for the OT saints (And not the NT saint), and or in history, dictionaries, etc. then I am saying you are biased to what you want to see (And you are not being entirely honest with yourself). For how many believers who have abstained from alcohol actually believed that the wine Jesus made was intoxicating? My guess is not many.
Okay, fair enough, admiring your boldness to stand your ground. May be i have missed out the fermented and unfermented wine in the HOLY BIBLE. So please kindly show from the HOLY BIBLE Scripture, GOD has written about these that you speak of?

Yes, the saints are porhibited from strong drink which was brewed or was added with low or high alcohol content but not wine let to be fermented naturally and also depend on the period of fermentation. They are to be sober in their duties to their community and not be drunk with wine having to much of it. And true saints know their limitation not to get drunk and they have self control due to their faith in religiousness.

But strong drinks are not mentioned in the New Testament and what is the pattern of this world is porhibited to the church. Yet, wine is allowed because it was a customary drink served with bread during any occasion of invited guests. This was also in the customary of the Passover Communion in church. And Apostle Paul said some of them eat and get drunk before all have arrived after service together, for mealtime. He corrected them by saying, don't they have homes to practice such greediness, thinking about their stomach first or worried that the consumption will be insufficient later together. He also went to justify to the churches after witnessing all of this and drunkards, he proclaimed an order from the LORD, stating;

"Do not get drunk with wine, for it is debauchery(over indulgence to immoral or harmful pleasure), and being a drunkard Christian, it ruins a spiritual growing person, but rather allow the HOLY SPIRIT to fill you."

Christian believers must have or achieve that moderate contentment of GOD's kindness providence in their achievement given lives and not hold back these given or added extras, but give them away to those brothers and sisters or even outsiders who ask and who don't have.

Christian are porhibited from wild parties that can get out of control, disturbing the peace of the neighborhood, even to many vulgar and arguments. Their parties are spiritual, simple, not noisy, time limited and respecting neighbors.


Yet, the community of Israel written in the Old Testament, once a year when they go for the Passover to Jerusalem, they are allowed to bring strong drinks and wine, to share with one another, even to the unaffordable poor and they are allowed to celebrate together this required feast of remembrance.
 
W

Warrior777

Guest
Let's make this very easy:

1 Cor 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,
nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

If you drink alcohol in any amount, do you know when you get drunk? When is it called drunk? What is the definition of being drunk? Do we take your or God's definition of being drunk?
If you want to bet your salvation on it go right ahead, it's your choice! You will find out one day, just going to be too late then...

 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
17
38
What did wine do for Noah? what will it do for you?
I would have said Lot, had I wanted to make this argument:) - better to be Noah than Lot, especially regarding what happened as a result of wine.
 
Jun 5, 2014
1,750
6
0
Let's make this very easy:

1 Cor 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,
nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

If you drink alcohol in any amount, do you know when you get drunk? When is it called drunk? What is the definition of being drunk? Do we take your or God's definition of being drunk?
If you want to bet your salvation on it go right ahead, it's your choice! You will find out one day, just going to be too late then...

Dude, don't you have anything else to offer? We got enough sanctimonious lectures from Jason0047 like this already to make a 300 page book. The title will be "The High Road" by Jason and the Hypocrites.

Do you think everybody who ever fornicated is excluded from the kingdom of God?

What about King David?

Drunk in the state where I live is .08 BAC if you are driving.

Otherwise, I would say being drunk is being out of control to the point that you do things you definitely would not otherwise do. Like Lot.

NOBODY on this thread has advocated getting drunk. A few glasses of wine on occasion, however, is not sinful behavior. Personally, I prefer Guinness.

I saw a pic of Jesus drinking Budweiser the other day, allegedly taken by one of the Apostles. I think it was phony, though. I suspect Jesus drank Guinness, although there is no biblical evidence that He drank anything other than wine (alcoholic beverage).
 
W

Warrior777

Guest
Well if that what GOD has to say is not enough for you and you call it sanctimonious lectures, then I (or anybody else) cannot help you, then you don't want to understand. Either you are convicted by the Word of God or you aren't! Pretty simple.

And another biblical truth, also pretty easy and simple to understand:

1 John 1:9-10
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


Any sin, yes also fornication committed by anybody will exclude them from the kingdom of God. UNLESS they repent of it and refrain from doing it again (true repentance that is)!
So if you get drunk (by what definition is very shaky at best) and die right then, not being able to repent, you are FOREVER lost! You can insert any sinful behavior there.

Also again, you cannot say it takes this much alcohol for someone to get drunk because it depends on the person. A couple of glasses of wine will get many people flat out drunk (without them knowing), for some just ONE glass will do! To time exactly when enough is enough in God's eyes, that's playing with fire. It's like saying how much can I sin or how far can I go until I lose my salvation, if you like to play Russian roulette with your soul then just go on.

Further I guess when Paul wrote the above quoted scripture I doubt he had the definition and legal limit of alcohol consumption in your state in mind! Can't compare the standard of the world to God's!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Aug 28, 2013
955
11
0
Since God's Word says not to even look upon wine when it is fermenting, I'd suspect that God's definition of drunkenness is much different than .08 BAC.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,749
13,155
113
Since God's Word says not to even look upon wine when it is fermenting, I'd suspect that God's definition of drunkenness is much different than .08 BAC.
i posted a week ago about that --
if you're referring to what's written in the proverbs,

Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!
(Proverbs 21:31)

i really don't think this is talking about "watching wine ferment"
when wine is made, it is covered with a mold, then strained and stored.

moldy proto-wine isn't any more red than fresh grape juice, and certainly doesn't go down smoothly.

the teacher is saying not to be enamored with the beauty and taste of wine, idolizing it like a treasure.
it might be that until one has ones self drank enough wine to find become absent-mindedly staring at the cup, watching it sparkle and imagining it's taste in one's throat, one can't appreciate this saying. he's talking about a state of drunkenness, not the process of fermentation, to the best of my understanding.

if it was about not looking at it when it ferments, i think the saying would be more like
"do not gaze at wine when it molds, when it is bitter and chunky!"
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,749
13,155
113
here's a picture of wine first fermenting --

wine3.jpg

does it sparkle red? appear as though it would go down smoothly?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,749
13,155
113
later in the fermenting process, wine looks like this:

dscn6447.jpg

that i DO NOT think would go down smoothly!!
 
Jun 5, 2014
1,750
6
0
1 John 1:9-10
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

So if you get drunk (by what definition is very shaky at best) and die right then, not being able to repent, you are FOREVER lost! You can insert any sinful behavior there.

Further I guess when Paul wrote the above quoted scripture I doubt he had the definition and legal limit of alcohol consumption in your state in mind! Can't compare the standard of the world to God's!
Excuse me?

Paul didn't write that, John did.

I have only read two posts of yours and already I am suspect of the credibility of anything you might have to say.

So, a person who has been born again and mostly faithful to the Word has three beers at a baseball game (quite possibly legally drunk) drives home and is killed when she runs off the road and hits a tree is FOREVER lost?

I'm glad it's you making that decision and not me. I thought we all fell short. No?

I see StandingFirmInChrist "liked" your post. He will "like" the post of anyone who is not smarter than a 5th grader.
 
Last edited:
Aug 28, 2013
955
11
0
Excuse me?

Paul didn't write that, John did.

I have only read two posts of yours and already I am suspect of the credibility of anything you might have to say.

So, a person who has been born again and mostly faithful to the Word has three beers at a baseball game (quite possibly legally drunk) drives home and is killed when she runs off the road and hits a tree is FOREVER lost?

I'm glad it's you making that decision and not me. I thought we all fell short. No?

I see StandingFirmInChrist "liked" your post. He will "like" the post of anyone who is not smarter than a 5th grader.
not true, i didn't like yours. And most fifth graders are smart enough to know not to drink alcohol.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
I don't need to provide other sources.

The sources you provided contain the answer.

You should actually read the material you are linking to.

(For those who forgot, the question is what do you get when FULLY FERMENT COMPLETELY is really over. And it ain't over until the fat lady sings. FULLY FERMENT COMPLETELY is Jason0047 lingo, although at times he uses FORMENT. I have no idea what FORMENT means, and Jason0047 has no idea what FERMENT means, at least not FULLY FERMENT COMPLETELY).
First, let's not be nitpicky or argumentative. The word "forment" was a mispelling. I realized that it was a mispelling after the fact before you brought it up. However, seeing I cannot edit my posts like other forums at any time, I am confined to leaving imperfectly written posts from time to time. In fact, I do not understand why there is such a restriction, but I realize I have no choice but to live with it.

Second, I am not claiming to be a wine maker or wine expert. I have drank wine before abstaining. The knowledge I have gained about wine making comes from wine making sites and what they have said. I am assuming they have not lied about what they are talking about.

As for the word "fully ferment", it is actually mentioned here twice:

Glossary of winemaking terms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note: The word "completely" is saying the same thing as the word "full." The word "completely" is merely stressing the point of the word "full."
 
Last edited: