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This response is typical of a brain washed cult member. Those of you who have read enough of the cult members of the King James Only Cult, will notice how many times they play the holier than thou card and state that a fellow Christian must be under influence of a demon if they are being told different things by The Holy Spirit.
That is dangerous and wrong, I have mentioned many times that God has not made King James an issue with me, I continue to use the NIV or whatever I fancy to use, Holy Spirit has not said to me "STOP! do not use that, use King James Only, that is my perfect Bible".
No, not at all, but of course the response is yet again Holier than thou superiority claims, that a person such as myself must still be stuck at baby stage of being a Christian as its only more mature Chrisitians who are enlightened and shown the so called Bible Truth.
Then there is the other spirit card, which we see in this quote, that again something which contridicts thier cult teachings can not possibly be from God, so it must be a demonic influence. Of course they do not test if the voices they are hearing about the King James and Bible Issue are from God or Satan, there cult is based on a simple lie that has huge impact on peoples lives, brings about confusion, worry and bondage, stuck with only having a 400 year old translation to read.
The fact these threads go on and on and on with likes of Jason continually backing off, dodging, diverting and ignoring posts also says a lot.
I hope not that many people get sucked into this cult. Shame because I like the King James, I have nothing against it, its a good translation, but that all it is and nothing else.
That is dangerous and wrong, I have mentioned many times that God has not made King James an issue with me, I continue to use the NIV or whatever I fancy to use, Holy Spirit has not said to me "STOP! do not use that, use King James Only, that is my perfect Bible".
No, not at all, but of course the response is yet again Holier than thou superiority claims, that a person such as myself must still be stuck at baby stage of being a Christian as its only more mature Chrisitians who are enlightened and shown the so called Bible Truth.
Then there is the other spirit card, which we see in this quote, that again something which contridicts thier cult teachings can not possibly be from God, so it must be a demonic influence. Of course they do not test if the voices they are hearing about the King James and Bible Issue are from God or Satan, there cult is based on a simple lie that has huge impact on peoples lives, brings about confusion, worry and bondage, stuck with only having a 400 year old translation to read.
The fact these threads go on and on and on with likes of Jason continually backing off, dodging, diverting and ignoring posts also says a lot.
I hope not that many people get sucked into this cult. Shame because I like the King James, I have nothing against it, its a good translation, but that all it is and nothing else.
You just wasted your entire time writing to me. I seen no Scripture in your post. All i seen was the word cult and you don't have to speak another word for me to understand that you don't like me. I won't read what you write because all your doing is attacking me and not loving me like a Christian should. Use the Word of God as your defense. Be loving, professional, and respectful. If not, then I will tune you out.
God's Word claims that it is perfect (Psalm 12:6 KJV) (Psalm 119:140 KJV) (Proverbs 30:5 KJV) and that it will be preserved for all generations (Psalm 12:7 KJV) and it will stand forever (Isaiah 40:8 KJV) (1 Peter 1:25 KJV). Therefore, seeing Scripture plainly states these facts, it then becomes an issue of a test of your faith in God's Word (See the test the devil gave to Eve in*Genesis 3:1 KJV); Because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe (1 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV). In other words, do you believe you hold the very words of God within your hands like the disciples did?
That's because you used a Scripture verse. See, that's how it works. I consider this matter to be a spiritual matter because we get our faith from the Word of God (Romans 10:17) and not out of thin air or from the back of a ceral box. Therefore, seeing it is a spiritual matter, I believe Scripture holds the answer or the key so as to resolve this issue. That's why I insist that you use Scripture alone to discuss this topic.
Truth hurts.
There you go again, taking the holier than thou and moral high ground, all superior in your enlightened state lording over everyone who disagrees and the usual tactics of "I am not talking to you because you said things I dont like".
WHy do posts have to contain Bible verses? I pointed out countless times that two opposite views of theology use the same verses but interpret them different, just as your cult interpret refined 7 times to mean the 7th English version of the Bible, which you have to fudge to get to King James 1611, I Could use that for Chinese translations.
Your views are dangerous to other beleivers, they bring doubt and fear into other Christians, I lost count the number of times you and your cult members have told me I am not a mature Christian, I am still a baby because when I ask about Bible Issue I am not shown anything, Or as your post which I quoted earlier shows, that anyone who claims to be told anything by HOly Spirit or shown something different to what your cult claims it has to be a demonic spirit, that is very dangerous accusation to make. This alone is a terrible and nasty thing to tell other Christians, especially if they then believe you and reject the Holy Spirit.
There you go again, taking the holier than thou and moral high ground, all superior in your enlightened state lording over everyone who disagrees and the usual tactics of "I am not talking to you because you said things I dont like".
WHy do posts have to contain Bible verses? I pointed out countless times that two opposite views of theology use the same verses but interpret them different, just as your cult interpret refined 7 times to mean the 7th English version of the Bible, which you have to fudge to get to King James 1611, I Could use that for Chinese translations.
Your views are dangerous to other beleivers, they bring doubt and fear into other Christians, I lost count the number of times you and your cult members have told me I am not a mature Christian, I am still a baby because when I ask about Bible Issue I am not shown anything, Or as your post which I quoted earlier shows, that anyone who claims to be told anything by HOly Spirit or shown something different to what your cult claims it has to be a demonic spirit, that is very dangerous accusation to make. This alone is a terrible and nasty thing to tell other Christians, especially if they then believe you and reject the Holy Spirit.
It's just a shame that the treatise you wrote has very little to do with the actual discussion we were having, and that you still haven't replied to my earlier points about your interpretation of Scripture.
So here we go again. Most of this is copied from earlier posts:
Then read the exegetical parts of my posting. In particular, that in virtually every case the Bible talks about the Word of God, it is talking about his precepts, his commands, his Word as an expression of his will. Very few are talking about the written Word/the Scriptures, and even then it is never making a statement to the effect your argument requires, vis 'God has guaranteed a copy of the original inspired writings that is accessible and 100% accurate for all time'.
and
You're conflating places where the Bible talks about the Word of God with the written tradition of the Scriptures. For instance, your reference to 1 Thess is totally off base, because Paul was PREACHING, not from a written gospel proclamation (such a thing did not yet exist - 1 Thess is almost certainly the first written document of the NT), but with his lips, in his authority as an apostle, from what he had learned from the eyewitnesses (1 Cor 15). There is not a hint of anything being said about a written document ANYWHERE here, it's simply not relevant. This is yet another example of your exegetical carelessness (which I already referred to in my previous post, and which you didn't reply to).
In regards to your reference to Romans 10:17, let's post it here so everyone can read it. I will use the KJV.
[quote="Romans 10:10-18]10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.[/quote]
So, a few brief notes - Paul refers to the Scriptures in v.11 (here, unambiguously the OT), but not in the immediate context of v.17 - he uses the Scripture here to make the point about believing 'unto righteousness' he has made in the preceding verses.
He also refers to the gospel, but again, not in the immediate context of v 17. The two references from Isaiah are connected to verbal preaching (by the prophets), not to a canonical text that people were expected to read (although the canonical text serves this ongoing function after the prophets passed). The point is Paul seems to be making an analogy between apostles/disciples and prophets, as part of an ongoing tradition. He is not concerned about a 'text' at this point he is concerned with people preaching (a verbal proclamation, not simply a tex containing that proclamation)
If you look at v.18, Paul makes a rhetorical point - he has just said that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (following the need to send preachers - no indication Paul has in mind anything here other than preaching the gospel about Jesus in a similar manner to Romans 1:8 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 1:8 - verbally and by personal witnesses to the gospel of Jesus, as I already noted).
However, what is striking is that the point he makes here is that even though preachers should be sent, the reality is the 'they' (we can assume either Israel or all unbelievers here, it doesn't particularly matter for our purposes) HAVE ALREADY HEARD. Who is the the 'they' the voice belongs to in 18b? I'll let you look it up in Psalm 19, and then you can tell me who it is that is speaking there.
So, then, what is the meaning of word in v.17? It is not at all clear Paul even means a written text at this point, because the voices in the quotation Paul pulls from Psalm 19 are not the Scriptures, or a printed text. It seems Paul means word of God in a more encompassing sense than simply 'the Scriptures', let alone "a particular copy of the Scriptures". In fact, Paul's not even making a statement about the preservation of Scripture here at all, he is simply instructing people to share the gospel message.
Therefore, your use of Romans 10 hasn't established what the text has to do with your argument ("God has guaranteed a 100% verbatim and accessible single copy of the Scriptures throughout all time, and that manuscript is represented in English by the KJV").
Now, could you please try and respond to this post? I've only used Scripture this time.
So here we go again. Most of this is copied from earlier posts:
Then read the exegetical parts of my posting. In particular, that in virtually every case the Bible talks about the Word of God, it is talking about his precepts, his commands, his Word as an expression of his will. Very few are talking about the written Word/the Scriptures, and even then it is never making a statement to the effect your argument requires, vis 'God has guaranteed a copy of the original inspired writings that is accessible and 100% accurate for all time'.
and
You're conflating places where the Bible talks about the Word of God with the written tradition of the Scriptures. For instance, your reference to 1 Thess is totally off base, because Paul was PREACHING, not from a written gospel proclamation (such a thing did not yet exist - 1 Thess is almost certainly the first written document of the NT), but with his lips, in his authority as an apostle, from what he had learned from the eyewitnesses (1 Cor 15). There is not a hint of anything being said about a written document ANYWHERE here, it's simply not relevant. This is yet another example of your exegetical carelessness (which I already referred to in my previous post, and which you didn't reply to).
In regards to your reference to Romans 10:17, let's post it here so everyone can read it. I will use the KJV.
[quote="Romans 10:10-18]10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.[/quote]
So, a few brief notes - Paul refers to the Scriptures in v.11 (here, unambiguously the OT), but not in the immediate context of v.17 - he uses the Scripture here to make the point about believing 'unto righteousness' he has made in the preceding verses.
He also refers to the gospel, but again, not in the immediate context of v 17. The two references from Isaiah are connected to verbal preaching (by the prophets), not to a canonical text that people were expected to read (although the canonical text serves this ongoing function after the prophets passed). The point is Paul seems to be making an analogy between apostles/disciples and prophets, as part of an ongoing tradition. He is not concerned about a 'text' at this point he is concerned with people preaching (a verbal proclamation, not simply a tex containing that proclamation)
If you look at v.18, Paul makes a rhetorical point - he has just said that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (following the need to send preachers - no indication Paul has in mind anything here other than preaching the gospel about Jesus in a similar manner to Romans 1:8 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 1:8 - verbally and by personal witnesses to the gospel of Jesus, as I already noted).
However, what is striking is that the point he makes here is that even though preachers should be sent, the reality is the 'they' (we can assume either Israel or all unbelievers here, it doesn't particularly matter for our purposes) HAVE ALREADY HEARD. Who is the the 'they' the voice belongs to in 18b? I'll let you look it up in Psalm 19, and then you can tell me who it is that is speaking there.
So, then, what is the meaning of word in v.17? It is not at all clear Paul even means a written text at this point, because the voices in the quotation Paul pulls from Psalm 19 are not the Scriptures, or a printed text. It seems Paul means word of God in a more encompassing sense than simply 'the Scriptures', let alone "a particular copy of the Scriptures". In fact, Paul's not even making a statement about the preservation of Scripture here at all, he is simply instructing people to share the gospel message.
Therefore, your use of Romans 10 hasn't established what the text has to do with your argument ("God has guaranteed a 100% verbatim and accessible single copy of the Scriptures throughout all time, and that manuscript is represented in English by the KJV").
Now, could you please try and respond to this post? I've only used Scripture this time.
It's just a shame that the treatise you wrote has very little to do with the actual discussion we were having, and that you still haven't replied to my earlier points about your interpretation of Scripture.
Yes, I understand that 1 Thessalonians 2:13 is speaking of the spoken Word. But my point is that there is no difference between the spoken Word of God and the written Word of God. They are the same thing. The Word of God. When Jesus spoke at any time, when the prophets spoke of prophecy, when the apostles spoke of the gospel or doctrine, they were all the very much the words of God. Not all their words were written down, but those spiritual verbal words that were spoken which were written down had just as much weight and authority as their verbal words. These were the traditions that Christians were taught. The Word of God, which came in both a spoken form and in a written form. How so?
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
In fact, what the apostle Paul and others had written down was an authority whereby they could tell the brethren that those men who did not obey ther written word, they were not keep company with those men who did not obey it.
2 Thessalonians 3:14
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
In fact, Jesus said if you abide in His Word you are His disciples indeed (John 8:31). Jesus said abide in His Words and abide in Him (John 15:7). In fact, Jesus criticized the Jews for the fact that His Word had found no place within them (John 8:37). Jesus also criticized them for being in error because they did not know the Scriptures, too (Matthew 22:29). Sanctify them with truth, for thy Word is truth (John 17:17). Christ sancties the church with the washing of the water of the Word (Ephesians 5:25, 26). For man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word of God that he speaks (Matthew 4:4). Jesus said His words were spirit and they were life (John 6:63). Jesus and his disciples were intimately familiar with the Scriptures and they quoted them as a part of their ministry. For we are to study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15).
For the written Word is the Word of God:
For all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).
Just as the spoken/written Word was the Word of God:
For the prophecy [spoken/written Word] came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:21).
Men of God spoke by the Spirit and either they themselves (Like Moses) or scribes had written their words down.
As for Romans 10:17: I will respond to you on this in passage in my next post to you.
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As for Romans 10:17:
We first must establish a basic fact of Scripture.
In all Jesus' teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-18; 8:17; 12:40-42; Luke 4:18-21; 10:25-28; 15:29-31; 17:32; 24:25-45; John 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” The apostles quoted 209 times from the Old Testament and considered it “the oracles of God.” The Old Testament in hundreds of places predicted the events of the New Testament; and as the New Testament is the fulfillment of, and testifies to the genuineness and authenticity of the Old Testament, both Testaments must be considered together as the Word of God.
Second, this fact of Scripture can be seen in Romans chapter 10. Paul quotes the spoken words of Isaiah that are in written form because Romans 10:16 can be found in the written text of Isaiah (Isaiah 53:1). In fact, Philip had given a live audio commentary to an Ethiopian who was reading an actual physical text from Isaiah. Philip did not undermine the authority of this written Word by he supported it by explaining it in light of the gospel of Jesus Christ whereby He led the Ethiopian to the Lord by it (Acts 8:26-40).
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 plainly says that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose the third according to the Scriptures. This is the written Word and it has authority as the Word of God whereby we have our faith in Jesus Christ. We did not get our faith from the back of a cereal box. It came from the Word of God in written form. Paul says that the gospel comes from the Scriptures.
In Romans 10:11, it refers to Isaiah 28:16. Verses 19, 20, and 21 are all taken from Scripture. Again, Paul points to written Scripture as an authority. This authority is the Word of God.
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Random question, how many times did Jesus quote the OT in the gospels?
We first must establish a basic fact of Scripture.
In all Jesus' teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-18; 8:17; 12:40-42; Luke 4:18-21; 10:25-28; 15:29-31; 17:32; 24:25-45; John 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” The apostles quoted 209 times from the Old Testament and considered it “the oracles of God.” The Old Testament in hundreds of places predicted the events of the New Testament; and as the New Testament is the fulfillment of, and testifies to the genuineness and authenticity of the Old Testament, both Testaments must be considered together as the Word of God.
Second, this fact of Scripture can be seen in Romans chapter 10. Paul quotes the spoken words of Isaiah that are in written form because Romans 10:16 can be found in the written text of Isaiah (Isaiah 53:1). In fact, Philip had given a live audio commentary to an Ethiopian who was reading an actual physical text from Isaiah. Philip did not undermine the authority of this written Word by he supported it by explaining it in light of the gospel of Jesus Christ whereby He led the Ethiopian to the Lord by it (Acts 8:26-40).
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 plainly says that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose the third according to the Scriptures. This is the written Word and it has authority as the Word of God whereby we have our faith in Jesus Christ. We did not get our faith from the back of a cereal box. It came from the Word of God in written form. Paul says that the gospel comes from the Scriptures.
In Romans 10:11, it refers to Isaiah 28:16. Verses 19, 20, and 21 are all taken from Scripture. Again, Paul points to written Scripture as an authority. This authority is the Word of God.
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Random question, how many times did Jesus quote the OT in the gospels?
which one is a great question... I believe God's word is perfect... I don't believe we have perfect human copies or translations here on earth... really great ones, stunning in their accuracy after thousands of years, but not perfect... if God says his word is settled in heaven, but he doesn't say it's settled on earth, then that could be a clue...
1. There was a spoken Word of God (Here on this Earth).
2. There was and is a written Word of God (Here on this Earth).
3. Acts 17:11 says they received the Word (spoken Word) with an open mind but checked the Scriptures on whether those things be so or not.
4. Scriptures testify of Jesus Christ.
5. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.
6. Scriptures will lead a believer into every good work.
7. Scripture was written down so that we may have an exact account of the truth.
8. We are told not exceed what is written.
9. We are not add or take away from God's Word.
10. There are those who seek to corrupt the Word of God.
Note: This list is taken from Scripture.
2. There was and is a written Word of God (Here on this Earth).
3. Acts 17:11 says they received the Word (spoken Word) with an open mind but checked the Scriptures on whether those things be so or not.
4. Scriptures testify of Jesus Christ.
5. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.
6. Scriptures will lead a believer into every good work.
7. Scripture was written down so that we may have an exact account of the truth.
8. We are told not exceed what is written.
9. We are not add or take away from God's Word.
10. There are those who seek to corrupt the Word of God.
Note: This list is taken from Scripture.
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And what do the following verses say?
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.*For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake*as they were*moved by the Holy Ghost.
In other words, how can you have private interpretation of Scripture if there is no sure Word of prophecy written down for us to know?
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.*For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake*as they were*moved by the Holy Ghost.
In other words, how can you have private interpretation of Scripture if there is no sure Word of prophecy written down for us to know?
Scripture disagrees with you. Proverbs 30:5 says every word of God is pure and then in verse 6 (Proverbs 30:6) we are told not to add to God's Word. This is obviously in context to the written Word on Earth because how can you add to God's Word in Heaven or how can you add to God's Word that is spoken by someone and then forgotten or fudged by imperfect human minds decades later?