Two natures of man?
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I have no idea what this has to do with the "flesh" and the "Spirit" within a man - you do know that one that remains in the "flesh" is a "goat" and the one who is born again of the Spirit have joined the sheepfold and are taken care of by the shepherd - "sheep."
Ya know - the "flesh" can be made very religious. The two - "flesh" and "religion" go well together: ["Religion" is anything MAN can do to get to God - "Christianity" is what Christ has done to bring you to God.] for religion consists of ordinances, rites, rituals and ceremonies. It stands in "meat and drinks" - thrives on vows, and pledges. ALL these are outward - The "flesh" can observe days, feasts and fasts [Colossians 2:16,20,21; Rom. 14:5,6]. The "flesh" revels in "Rules" and delights in "ordinances." These outward things "perish with the using [Colossians 2:22] In Matt. 15:11 Jesus spoke regarding Scribes and Pharisees of Jerusalem (15:1)- they were teaching for doctrine the commandments of men - making men religious by working on feelings of the flesh - This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
No where has anyone said that a man should not repent - when one repents and confesses Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead is saved . . . . Now one is a person of "flesh" and "spirit" - the battle is on - the "flesh" lusting against the "spirit" - Is the answer to continue to try to please God in the "flesh" - making ourselves good enough for God - or to rely on the "spirit" created in us in the image of Him that created it to keep us? Shouldn't we worship God in spirit and in truth not in outward shows of the "flesh"?
By teaching a duel nature doctrine you are upholding the basic principle of Gnosticism.
Human being do not have a duel nature. We have a spirit (that which drives us), a consciousness (mind), and a fleshly body (our vessel). Sin is not found in the flesh and the flesh does not have at its root sin. That is pure gnosticism.
The flesh has natural passions and desires and to be fleshly it to allow oneself to be driven by those passions and desires like a beast. The reason there is "no good thing" in the flesh is that apart from the light of God we would be beast animals operating on lust alone. The flesh itself is not evil, it was Augustine of Hippo who brought that garbage into Christian doctrine and theologians have developed it since then.
In Romans 7 Paul is speaking of a man who is addicted to the lusts of the flesh and therefore has a natural disposition towards them in rebellion to God. That wretchedness is overcome through the Spirit of Life IN Jesus Christ. In other words we shift from being a self serving beast in rebellion to God to being God driven via the Spirit having crucified our beast self.
The word "nature" in the Bible is the Greek word "Phusis" and it literally means GROWTH. A "sin nature" is the natural disposition to sin which develops through the long practiced habit of sinning. Sinning becomes hard wired in a human being for several reasons. The human brain adapts to our behaviour. In the same way that the brain of a cocaine addict physically changes and adapts due to the reinforcement of the unnatural increase of dopamine (which brings a feeling of comfort/well being) upon pathways in the brain, the brain of a sinner similarly adapts. To go against such a nature is extremely difficult and is only possible through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.
This is why the "old man" cannot be reformed. It has to die once and for all in repentance whereby we yield our hearts 100% to God. We are then energised for victory and over time we will become hardwired to the service of God whereby the old temptations lessen.
The problem with dualist notions is the flesh itself is blamed for sin. Under this delusion people naturally abdicate their responsibility in having "sold themselves int bondage through choice" because they believe they were "born in bondage apart from choice" and thus approach the sin problem as victims not criminals.
A victim mindset in a criminal excuses further rebellion because they perceive the rebellion as being "natural" and thus they will teach "sin you will and sin you must." Hence the disconnect between "manifest deeds" and the "state of the spirit." That disconnect is gnostic dualism in all its glory, or in all its perversion dressed up as glory.
You see you are saying things like this...
That is Gnosticism 101. You are believing the lie that your salvation lies in a "spirit which is abstract" and thus not "reflected in the flesh." You claim "it hasn't happened yet" because you are upholding the view that the FLESH is holding you back. You twist Peter around by claiming "the escape has not happened yet" when Peter says that it has. The philosophy you believe forces you to distort the Bible.
The Gnostics taught that matter was evil and that the spirit was good. They would teach that one could perfect the spirit via knowledge and via exercising the will (self denial or asceticism) yet they always taught that sinning would continue due to being embodied in evil flesh. John the Apostle refuted these lies in his first epistle by stating...
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
John made it clear that the walk must match the profession. One cannot be sinning in the flesh and be pure in the spirit like the gnostics taught.
John wrote...
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
The Gnostics denied this because they taught one simply cannot do with will of God because the flesh itself restricted it. They believed the flesh suppressed the light of the soul. They taught "sin you will and sin you must."
John wrote...
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
The key word above is MANIFEST. That word blows gnostic doctrine out of the water. The children of God are MANIFEST because they DO righteousness. The deeds of the righteous prove their faith. Modern theology utterly rejects it and tries to spiritualise it away exactly like you are doing in your post.
What you are actually doing is arguing in favour of sin without realising it. You are beholden to a salvation which is not salvation at all. You are under a very dangerous deception, a deception which destroys souls.
Believe the Bible and turn away from all these notions developed by men.
What did Jesus actually teach? he taught "blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God." Jesus taught heart purity.
Believe Jesus. Keep His commandments. Walk as He walked and let your light shine before men.
Flesh is just the meat on our bones. It is through the flesh we are tempted. Yielding to temptation involves a choice. God does not suffer us to be tempted above what we are able but always offers a way of escape.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
What about Jesus referring in Jn 3:5 to the spiritual restoration (new birth) in Eze 36:25-27?
36:25-27 - "I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean.
I will cleanse you from all impurities and from your idols.
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you;
I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."
So when you received the "spirit" you were made perfect in the flesh? Yes, we should walk in newness of life - does it come automatically or is it a walk? Sin is the "root" - it is in all "flesh". Sins are the "fruit" of the "root". In Romans 1:16 - 5:11, it is "sins" considered as the outcome of the old nature. Romans 5:12 - 8:39 Sin - the old nature - the root. Although we may still see the "fruit" - sins - we are to regard (reckon) the old tree, the "root" as though it had died in Christ's death. But there is no change in the "flesh" [Gal. 3:3] - the "root" is still there - the "old man" nature. The change is in our standing before God. "We walk by faith" and by faith we reckon that though the "flesh" is in us - we are no longer in the "flesh" and in spite of the "fruits" - sins we see from time to time we believe God when He tells us that the "root", the tree in his sight is condemned. A new graft has been put in and can only produce "fruit unto God."
Yes, if we live after the flesh, we shall die: and there are a lot of people trying to please God in the "flesh" but we are born of the 'Spirit' - we mortify the deeds of the body by "putting off the old" and "putting on the new" and we are nourished and replenished by the grace and strength of the Holy Spirit - it is a process.
Who are the "children of disobedience?" We do not have two fathers - we are not the children of Satan and the children of God - if we are born of the "spirit" we are not longer "children of disobedience"!
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: . . . . BUT GOD who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus . . . . [Eph. 2:1,2,4] Thank you Father!!!!!Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. . . Again who are the children of disobedience - those walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air - THE spirit of the prince of the power of the air - not born again of God's Spirit. (see also Colossians 3:6)
Yes we are sons of God - the pneuma Christou - the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwells within us - But you are not in the "flesh", but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin: but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [Romans 8:9,10]
This is what makes us "sons of God". And because you are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant but a son: and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. [Gal. 4:6,7] Together with that privilege of being a son of God we share in all the blessings of being a son. . . [John 1:12, 1 John 3:1-3] His perfect righteousness [Phil. 3:9] His holiness [1 Cor. 1:30]; His peace [Phil. 4:7] His Father's secret purposes [Eph. 1:9] His Father's love [1 John 3:1] His glorious resurrection body [Phil. 3:21] His coming glory [Romans 8:17; Col. 3:4; 1 John 32] Himself [1 Thess. 4:17] All from God [John 1:13] What more can we ask for - what more can we do - God has done it all through the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ!!!!
That is what being born again of the Holy Spirit is, being raised from spiriitual death to eternal life.
He now has Holy Spirit eternal life in his spirit.
The major reason that people like you believe in OSAS is due to your belief in the dual nature of man. Because you are forced to disconnect "deeds done in the flesh" from the "condition of the spirit" you believe in a salvation which is abstract in nature.
With salvation being abstract or positional (generally supported by the Penal Substitution teaching) the position cannot be changed.
Salvation, in reality, is a manifest state of walking with God in the Spirit having crucified the flesh with the passions and desires whereby all rebellion to God has ceased. We approach God in repentance and faith via the blood and are cleansed in the process and our past transgressions are forgiven. We are energised by the grace of God to walk in victory because we are no longer in a state of resisting God's power.
It is impossible for anyone who has experienced genuine salvation to believe in OSAS because it is very clear that abiding in Christ is a walk we do by choice. If we choose to walk away from God then we leave this manifest state.
Satan was able to infiltrate the church from within long ago with insidious dual nature doctrines and pervert the nature of man whereby it became a necessity to view salvation as an abstraction. Thus people could claim they are saved and yet still be serving sin, the service of sin being blamed on the flesh.
It is the most evil, effectual and insidious deception imaginable. It is diabolical and it is also truly tragic as to how many millions of people have bought into it hook, line and sinker.
Jesus did warn us. Yet we don't listen.
Or I should say, we hear but we don't hear.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
DOING the will of God is wrought in salvation.
None of us can sin and not surely die. Yet we can buy into a theology which teaches that we can. The truth will be made manifest to the deceived at the judgement when MANY cry our "Lord, Lord." Don't be one of them.
Perhaps we should be clear here, for anyone who may not be.
By "participating in the divine nature" we are not divine in any sense,
but are indwelt by God, through his Holy Spirit.
Jn 14:16-17 - "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor
to be with you forever--the Spirit of truth.
The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.
But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."
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The root of sin is not in the flesh. The root of sin is in the exercise of the will. The root of sin lies within a corrupted heart, corrupted through an exercise of free agency.
By believing that the root of sin is in the flesh you are approaching God with the mindset of a victim not a rebel. You believe that you were "born a sinner" and due to this it is impossible to take responsibility for your rebellion to God. That is the danger. Satan has perverted the nature of man to destroy repentance.
Repentance has been redefined to be a "confession of sinfulness" instead of being a "cessation of rebellion through a change of mind."
One can quote scripture all day long and twist it to support the false notion but it will avail them nothing. We have to approach God with a true heart and be WALKING in the light in order to be cleansed of all unrighteousness. This is impossible if one believes they were "born a sinner" and are thus "naturally sinful of no fault of their own."
The people of Nineveh forsook their sin, they did not merely confess sinfulness. The prodigal son forsook his rebellion, he did not merely confess sinfulness.
What is generally happening in modern Christianity is that the old man is not being crucified. The passions and desires are not being crucified through godly sorrow working a repentance unto salvation. This is not happening.
Instead people have been deluded into "trusting in a provision" as the basis of their salvation by which they drag the old man into what they perceive as a saved state and then they believe that this old man is to be reformed gradually. This is why the sin never stops.
The porn addict is induced to "confess their sinfulness" and "receive Jesus" by "trusting in the provision" of the "finished work of the cross." They then believe that God will work with them over time to overcome their addiction. They are a Romans wretch saved "in position" but not "in practice." The gnostic dualist notion being in full effect.
THAT IS DECEPTION. THAT IS SATANIC.
Genuine salvation involves a deliverance from sin. The bondage ends in salvation, it doesn't continue. The old man MUST be crucified in order that the new man be born. ALL THING BECOME NEW IN REALITY.
That is not what the Bible teaches. Gal 3:3 is a reference to the Galatians going back to legalism (ie. rites and rituals, observances) as the means of salvation. Salvation is through the power of God working on our hearts (grace) not of obeying rules and regulations.
You are promoting Gnosticism when you promote salvation as purely positional. Jesus didn't teach that those who "positionally" who do the will of God will enter the kingdom, Jesus said those who DO the will of God will enter. Positional salvation is an excuse to keep on sinning with the excuse of "I can't help it."
The old man nature is put to death when we die with Christ.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The old man is to be crucified so that the body of sin (the wretch) be destroyed that from then on the service of sin ceases.
The wretched man is in a body of death because he is in bondage to the service of sin.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
We are delivered through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
This is why a Christian MUST walk after the Spirit lest the old man revive and the service of sin begins again.
Walking after the Spirit in holiness and purity has NOTHING to do with trying to please God after the flesh. That idea is Satan trying to subvert the saints who preach the truth. Satan wants people to stay in rebellion and not turn from it. If people can be convinced that they cannot turn then he has them in his grasp.
May I suggest that goats never become sheep, either in the natural order or in the spiritual order,
that we're born spiritually dead goats and spiritually dead sheep,
that Jesus knows who are his sheep, that they come to him and he gives them eternal life.
Food for thought. . .
Actually, that is pure Scripture, in Ro 3:10-12, 5:19, 7:18-25; 8:3-4, 7-8.
However, your denial of man's sinful nature taught in Scripture is pure Skinski7ism.
So. . .what in "the flesh," weakens the law, rendering it powerless to make righteous (Ro 8:3)?
Is anyone exempt from weakening the law by their flesh?
Why not?
Pure Skinski7ism. . .
That is fatalism.
The Bible does not say anywhere that we are "born dead." This is the root of most modern deception. By being "born dead" then sinners are victims not criminals.
The Prodigal Son was said to be "alive again" after he returned to his father. That means he was clearly alive once before.
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
He wasn't born dead. He died when he made the choice to depart from his father, that is what killed him.
Likewise Adam "surely died" when he ate of the fruit.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam who was a son of God died.
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Paul was once alive and then died.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rebellion is what brings death.
as 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
It is the Gnostics who taught that people are "born dead" because they perceived the flesh as evil. That is why many of them would deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh because they could not reconcile the Christ being in a flesh body. Today many people cannot reconcile "doing righteousness being manifest in the flesh body" because they believe "the root of sin is in the flesh."
Undone by the vain philosophies of men which have been guided via the principalities and powers of the air under Satan.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Law can only ever reform the outward man. True reformation is through the Spirit. The flesh is weak in that there is no spiritual power in it as it is but a vessel.
Jesus was manifest in the likeness of sinful flesh (ie. he was in flesh bodies just like us) yet he condemned sin in the flesh by overcoming it through walking in the Spirit. He did this so we could follow His example and do the same that true righteousness be fulfilled in us.
You're a gnostic too. You blame the flesh and a birth state for the rebellion of man. Not only that you believe that one is either "born to salvation" or "born to damnation" which is exactly what the heretic Augustine taught in his later years. That doctrine necessitates a "do nothing" attitude in people because if they are one of the elect then God will clean them up later and if not then there is nothing they can do about it.
And that is Skinski7ism.
We are born spiritually dead; i.e., without Holy Spirit life.
That is why no one can even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (Jn 3:3).
For flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to spirit (Jn 3:6).
The real kicker in all this is who will forsake their rebellion and turn to God?
That is what it is all about. Jesus called people to repent, forsake their sin and to follow Him. How many people are actually willing to do that? To actually do everything He said?
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
How many people actually do whatever Jesus commanded?
Not many and there are all sorts of excuses as to why.
One of those excuses is the dual nature teaching of the Gnostics. If one believes that they can claim "I cannot obey you Jesus because of my flesh."
That is what it is all about. Jesus called people to repent, forsake their sin and to follow Him. How many people are actually willing to do that? To actually do everything He said?
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
How many people actually do whatever Jesus commanded?
Not many and there are all sorts of excuses as to why.
One of those excuses is the dual nature teaching of the Gnostics. If one believes that they can claim "I cannot obey you Jesus because of my flesh."
It has no spiritual power because it is naturally sinful (Ro 3:10-12, 5:19; 7:18-25, 8:3-4, 7:8).
More Skinski7ism. . .
Says who? You?
The Bible says we are not "born dead.".
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Babies are born neutral not dead. As the child intellect grows they become aware of the light of God (light of conscience) and to violate it brings death and to yield to it brings life. The new birth is simply to yield ourselves to God from the heart whereby the energy of God manifests through us. Thus we are able to see spiritually.
Your problem is that you have chosen to deify Augustinian Gnosticism and pretend that it is Biblical by asserting selected proof passages out of their context whilst ignoring others. That is why you will often ignore passages I quote completely and instead resort to name calling.
There are certain things that you simply cannot discuss in depth because to do so would undermine your position.
You name call and then pretend your position is valid by alluding to proof texts which you assert out of their context.
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