Jesus knows all men, and their works. Therefore for Jesus to say "I never knew you", it obviously means something entirely different than the interpretation you are trying to put on it.
Referring to post 477 the original Greek text "never" means never once at any time meaning infinite i.e. even in the past. (neither pre-birth or post-birth)
This is the post that I gave the definition of
"never" according to the original Greek in Matthew 7:23
I will give you my thoughts about “never knew you” in parallel. There have been numerous times that a friend of mine would have spoken with someone, and after telling me about their conversation and then ask me if I knew them. Sometimes I did, and sometimes I didn't know them. When I was with a gospel group I had the opportunity to play music with Dolly Parton's cousin. Another time I was shopping at the same grocery store that Archie Campbell shopped when Hee Haw was a popular show. One other time we had opportunity to play in the church where Ricky Scaggs' family attended. As I would talk about my experiences and people would ask me “did you know them?” Obviously I would have to answer, “No I never knew them,” even though I knew of them, and also their popularity. Hope that makes sense.
I'm not sure why you would use this scripture to support your position. This scripture supports a pre-existence. If no man can go up to heaven unless he has come down from heaven, then all those who are in heaven were there once before. Even Jesus, who is in heaven. That concept supports my position.
If the scripture said, "no man hath ascended up to heaven except Jesus, because he was the only one that came down from heaven", then the scripture would support your position. But that is not what it says.
No man goes to heaven unless he came down from heaven, even Jesus who is in heaven was subject to that process. To me that is a good scripture to support the pre-existence of men.
I posted
"one rebirth" to compare it with Matthew 7:23.The conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus makes it clear that there is only one rebirth defined in scripture, meaning that we have “never” been “spirit children.” The first would be a baby conceived in its mother's womb, and the second would be “born again” accordingly.
There is no one who can teach about Heaven like Christ because He was the only one that has come from Heaven! The prophets, who have seen Heaven, saw it only in visions. And if they had authority to speak about Heaven because of what they had seen, how much more Christ could speak about Heaven and spiritual things having been the only Person that came down from there!
In that context He told Nicodemus to confirm the truth about being born again.
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)
This scripture can also be used to compare the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus. Verse 14 is one that I took note of. Being “spirit children” we would have been led by the Spirit of God in order to be the sons of God. Verse 15 also would have been the relationship we “had” with God before were were born in the flesh. If that is a reoccurring relationship after being “born again” I cannot comprehend how the previous relationship would not have been remembered when we receive a new birth in Christ simply because verse 16 confirms to us that we are children of God. The entire chapter is a good read for greater explanation.
Romans 8:13-17
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die : but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live .
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry , Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God , and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
With the greatest of respect for you and the way the Mormons teach moral standards I cannot accept this doctrine of being conceived spiritually before being conceived physically and then being conceived back again to our preexisting state before we were born physically.
To complete my thought, we can agree that there is no sin in heaven where God dwells. As long as our spirit is fleshly when we are born, the spirit that we once had before birth would have to be the perfect Spirit that was also in Christ.
I rhetorically ask 2 questions. Why were we given another spirit after a physical birth, and where would our original perfect spirit be stored if it isn't God's Spirit?
After birth are we given a spirit apart from God and our own so we can have the mind to reciprocate in a loving relationship with God?
A non-rhetorical question I have, is there an edifying reason for the doctrine of “spirit children”? Please keep in mind that I have had these types of conversations for years because many relatives of mine are of the Mormon religion.
Romans 8:11 But if the
Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Acts 5:30 The
God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days
I will raise it up .
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building , and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But
he spake of the temple of his body.
Sorry this is so long, I just wanted to clarify, and then put it behind us. Thank you for responding to my posts.