Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Regarding kosmos, I would suggest Wigram's "The Englishman's Greek Concordance of the New Testament" for accurate word study.

I would suggest 'Liddel & Scott'.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Cup, I can't believe you do not believe Jesus died for the every man on Earth. We are all sinners God also has no respect for any particular persons (Romans 2:11). So if God was to choose some sinners to be saved and just leave the others to go to hell without giving them a chance for salvation. That would be a respect for persons?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Liddel and Scott is the wrong kind of book for a word study. If you had mentioned it in reply to Machen it would have made sense, even if it seem pretentious.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Perhaps Dana and Mantley's "A Manual Grammer of the Greek New Testament". I don't think your ready for Liddel & Scott.

Look up ethnos in 'Liddel & Scott'.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Cup, I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, I think you should stay away from trying to use Greek in support of your arguments. (Particularly note how you try to say that the word for man "anthropos" was a title mot extended to every man.) Stick to English and it will be less embarassing.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Latin root word of Gentile is GENS, means descended from the same stem, gene, genus, gentry, etc, GENS consists of those of kindred blood, or families descended from a common stem, that is why Judah called Israel - Gentile - or ethnos - belonging to the same tribe.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Cup, I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, I think you should stay away from trying to use Greek in support of your arguments. (Particularly note how you try to say that the word for man "anthropos" was a title mot extended to every man.) Stick to English and it will be less embarassing.

Not all living things are from Him, some are not His seed, their of their father the devil, and these may be called 'natural brute beasts (zoon)' They do not recieve the title of 'man', anthropos is not a title extended to every living thing on two legs, if it was then all would be saved, but all are not saved.

 

[Definition_Christ]

John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

John 7:17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

So we MUST be WILLING to come to Jesus. Which is why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:17 "For I do this WILLINGLY".

No comment?

 

[Definition_Christ]

Oh wait a minute.....

1 John 2
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

(going down a few verses)

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Is that koine Greek word for "world", the same in: 1 John 2:2, 1 John 2:15-17 and John 3:16?

So... That "Kosmos" .. That has all this evil and things that we are not supposed to love is the same "Kosmos" that Christ died for right?

 

[Sharp]

I can guarantee that this is helping no-one.

 

[Definition_Christ]

So.. Just to clarify to anyone following along.. There are multiple Scriptures shown that Jesus has died for the whole world, that we can all come to Him and be reconciled unto Him, if we are willing to go to Him.

We have yet to see ANY Scripture at all supporting the fact Jesus did NOT die for the whole world, that NOT all men can be drawn to Jesus by the Father. We have not seen any Scripture supporting this... Yet so many believe it..

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Oh wait a minute.....

1 John 2
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

(going down a few verses)

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Is that koine Greek word for "world", the same in: 1 John 2:2, 1 John 2:15-17 and John 3:16?

So... That "Kosmos" .. That has all this evil and things that we are not supposed to love is the same "Kosmos" that Christ died for right?

Kosmos just means a particular order or government, i.e. "My Kingdom is not of this kosmos (order)", kosmos does not mean the entire globe of the Earth ge and everything upon it, it just means a particular structure or order, it can be negative or positive.

 

[Sharp]

Does unconditional election necessarily suggest double predestination?

 

[Definition_Christ]

Kosmos just means a particular order or government, i.e. "My Kingdom is not of this kosmos (order)", kosmos does not mean the entire globe of the Earth ge and everything upon it, it just means a particular structure or order, it can be negative or positive.

Right (doesn't really help you out, but okay) ..... So where is the Scripture Jesus died for ONLY the elect?

 

[Definition_Christ]

By the way, the reason why I said that didn't help you at all is because if you keep reading in 1 John go to chapter 5 and it says...

1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

So.. Keeping "the whole world" in that context...

1 John 2
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

I really don't see how you conclude this "world" is just the elect if the same words "the whole world" used in 1 John 5:19 and 1 John 2:2 .. Is the same.. "Whole world"... How do you connect the two without having to change the definition of world?

Not to mention we don't just have the word "Kosmos" here but we have the WHOLE KOSMOS" we have the... "holos kosmos" .. ALL of the Kosmos.. ALL of the world.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Every single person is predestined to believe in Christ because Christ died for all, the whole human race. However, due to God's foreknowledge, God knows that not everyone will believe in Christ, because every person has free-will to obey or disobey. God knows beforehand who will and who will not accept Him. Remember that Christ is the Saviour of all men not only of those who believe in Him, as the price has already been paid for them, but only those who trust in Him will be getting saved.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Every single person is predestined to believe in Christ because Christ died for all, the whole human race. However, due to God's foreknowledge, God knows that not everyone will believe in Christ, because every person has free-will to obey or disobey. God knows beforehand who will and who will not accept Him. Remember that Christ is the Saviour of all men not only of those who believe in Him, as the price has already been paid for them, but only those who trust in Him will be getting saved.

Amen, very well said.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

By the way, the reason why I said that didn't help you at all is because if you keep reading in 1 John go to chapter 5 and it says...

1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

So.. Keeping "the whole world" in that context...

" We know we ARE OF GOD, and the whole world (Kosmos) lies in the power of the wicked one"

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ IS BORN OF GOD: and every one that loveth Him That begat loveth him also that is begotten."

1 John 2
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Yes, that confess Jesus Christ and are born of Him, that kosmos; "Herein is love not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitation for our sins."

"Hereby we know that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit."

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh IS OF GOD."

God knows His sheep, He created us, but God says that some sheep are not His and are not part of His holos kosmos, He is not their father, they are of the devil. John tells us how to discern those that are not from Him, John says that they do not confess Christ, that is the spirit of the antichrist, that spirit is not from God, therefore no salvation for those who are not from God, if they were from God, they would confess, it says that all men will confess Jesus Christ who come to knowledge of God.

I really don't see how you conclude this "world" is just the elect if the same words "the whole world" used in 1 John 5:19 and 1 John 2:2 .. Is the same.. "Whole world"... How do you connect the two without having to change the definition of world?

Not to mention we don't just have the word "Kosmos" here but we have the WHOLE KOSMOS" we have the... "holos kosmos" .. ALL of the Kosmos.. ALL of the world.

It is His whole world, just some of the things in the world are not from Him, and they don't enter into the kingdom, He does not consider them worthy for election into the kingdom of God because they're tares, goats, not His sheep, as to what happens to them? That is another matter.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Okay let me see if this makes sense.

1 John 2:2
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You want it to say....

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for the elect sins, and not only for the elect but also for the elect.

God knows His sheep, He created us, but God says that some sheep are not His and are not part of His holos kosmos, He is not their father, they are of the devil. John tells us how to discern those that are not from Him, John says that they do not confess Christ, that is the spirit of the antichrist, that spirit is not from God, therefore no salvation for those who are not from God, if they were from God, they would confess, it says that all men will confess Jesus Christ who come to knowledge of God

We were not once the children of the devil?

Ephesians 5
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

 

[jcspartan]

The elect is whom God foreknows... It says it right there in Romans 8:29..You posted it. So the elect are those who will be in heaven, whom God knows will make the choice to follow His son. So the elect are the ones whom God foreknew who would be in heaven, were "predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son".. So God doesn't predestine OUR eternity.. He predestines those whom He KNOWS whom He FOREKNOWS to be made in the image of His son. He doesn't choose people to go to hell.. He gives them a choice. He just happens to KNOW what choice they will make. Making them non-Elect.. Which in a sense was never predestined to go to hell but as you said Gods will is that they will be saved. God definitely gives us the choice.. But He just happens to KNOW what choice we will make. So those who go to hell really do make that choice.. But .. God knows they will make that choice.. So.. They are not the "elect" mentioned in Scripture. So if someone is still alive, still breathing. There is an opportunity for them to CHOOSE good over evil!

1 Corinthians 9
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more;
20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

So Paul wouldn't be using the words "WIN OVER".. If they were predestined an eternity.. He would say "lead them to the truth".. Or.. "Show them what God has predestined them to be"... He says WIN OVER... So if they can be WON over they can be LOST as well... It's a choice they make... It's a work of God of course!!.. God has to make the first move... Yeshua says

John 6
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day

He says right there.. IT IS THE WILL of our Father all those whom He leads to Yeshua.. He should lose NONE.. He doesn't say that is going to happen.. He just says it's His will NONE of them perish..
So.. That lines up perfectly with...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

There is NOTHING in here about predestination... And it's His will ALL come to repentance.. What if they fail? I mean repentance leads to salvation...

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

So.. The sense of predestination in as some put is is not biblical at all. The biblical sense of predestination is God predestines whom He FOREKNOWS.

One of the better explanations I have come across. Well said.
Happy Thanksgiving