Baptism symbol only ?

[PACEMAKER]

you conclude the conversation is just about birth but it is about seeing and entering the kingdom of God.....you like Nicodemus miss the point.... there is no reference to natural birth by Jesus concerning born again. The moment someone says born again it is obvious they understand you are born already. Nicodemus thought he was speaking about another natural birth that is why he ask the question...
How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
and
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
He explains ...this is the birth I am speaking about...Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
Then he goes on to show the difference between what he was talking about and what Nicodemus was talking about

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

newbirth, here is something for you to explain.

We should also not lose sight of the fact that when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the ordinance of Christian baptism was not yet in effect. This important inconsistency in interpreting Scripture is seen when one asks those who believe "water baptism is required for salvation (newbirth)
why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved.
A common reply to that question is: “The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.”
So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was “under the Old Covenant” will use John 3:5 as “proof” that baptism is necessary for salvation.
They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant.

If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant),
why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized?

Something to Think about , newbirth

​

 

[newbirth]

newbirth, here is something for you to explain.

We should also not lose sight of the fact that when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, the ordinance of Christian baptism was not yet in effect. This important inconsistency in interpreting Scripture is seen when one asks those who believe "water baptism is required for salvation (newbirth)
why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved.
A common reply to that question is: “The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.”
So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was “under the Old Covenant” will use John 3:5 as “proof” that baptism is necessary for salvation.
They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he too was under the Old Covenant.

If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant),
why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized?

Something to Think about , newbirth

​

because you probably did not read the scriptures.....if you did you would notice Jesus ministry began with his baptism...Jesus is the way and he is showing Nicodemus the way .....He had power to save the thief on the cross...he forgave men of sins before the cross...You limit God by your understanding...but that does not mean God is limited....If you do not believe Christ himself and will not follow his words and example...who am I that you may hear me...because it is the same words I speak...

 

[posthuman]

... there is no reference to natural birth by Jesus concerning born again.

no, saying one must be "born again" implies directly that one has been born once already - e.g. natural birth, with happens to be inexorably physically associated with water.
if "born again" does not refer to a preceding natural birth, then you must conclude Jesus refers to two spiritual births.
but you don't:

The moment someone says born again it is obvious they understand you are born already.

exactly. and so they are talking about two births. a natural birth and a spiritual birth, and contrasting them.

Nicodemus thought he was speaking about another natural birth that is why he ask the question...
How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
and
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
He explains ...this is the birth I am speaking about...Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
Then he goes on to show the difference between what he was talking about and what Nicodemus was talking about

exactly. two births. He implies physical birth and its insufficiency, He describes two births, the natural and the supernatural, and contrasts two births, of flesh and of spirit.

none of this has anything to do with baptism.
baptism is not the topic of their conversation and is not mentioned at all.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

there is a very central and plain question you are completely dodging, friend.

is H[SUB]2[/SUB]O "flesh" or is H[SUB]2[/SUB]O "spirit" ??

 

[posthuman]

If you do not believe Christ himself and will not follow his words and example...who am I that you may hear me...because it is the same words I speak...

are you sure?

because Christ most certainly did not say "flesh begets flesh and H[SUB]2[/SUB]O begets spirit"

and the scriptures clearly​ say Christ baptizes with spirit, not H[SUB]2[/SUB]O . . .

 

[JesusIsAll]

none of this has anything to do with baptism.
baptism is not the topic of their conversation and is not mentioned at all.

Something that may interest somebody is something which has always struck me of being born of water, agree, a statement of being born of the flesh: our Lord goes on to clearly state this. But, also, it's painfully obvious a person must be born, in the first place, and I've always seen our Lord saying something more, that the water involves a subtle parallel to repentance. Just another level of meaning I've always discerned as amazing of that statement, as of many our Lord Jesus made, of the mind of God, often more than meets the eye.

 

[newbirth]

no, saying one must be "born again" implies directly that one has been born once already - e.g. natural birth, with happens to be inexorably physically associated with water.
if "born again" does not refer to a preceding natural birth, then you must conclude Jesus refers to two spiritual births.
but you don't:



exactly. and so they are talking about two births. a natural birth and a spiritual birth, and contrasting them.




exactly. two births. He implies physical birth and its insufficiency, He describes two births, the natural and the supernatural, and contrasts two births, of flesh and of spirit.

none of this has anything to do with baptism.
baptism is not the topic of their conversation and is not mentioned at all.




there is a very central and plain question you are completely dodging, friend.

is H[SUB]2[/SUB]O "flesh" or is H[SUB]2[/SUB]O "spirit" ??

you say.... none of this has anything to do with baptism.
baptism is not the topic of their conversation and is not mentioned at all.

but you do agree born of the spirit is spirit baptism even when baptism is not mentioned...now you ask me a question which you put in your own answers....you cannot ask someone a question and put in two wrong choices...H[SUB]2[/SUB]O is water
you imply born of water is of natural birth but the verse only tells how to be born again....[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

That is one birth there not two ...to be born again you must be born of water and the spirit...that is how you enter into the kingdom...

 

[VCO]

because you probably did not read the scriptures.....if you did you would notice Jesus ministry began with his baptism...Jesus is the way and he is showing Nicodemus the way .....He had power to save the thief on the cross...he forgave men of sins before the cross...You limit God by your understanding...but that does not mean God is limited....If you do not believe Christ himself and will not follow his words and example...who am I that you may hear me...because it is the same words I speak...

AND our Christian Walk Ministry in Christ begins with obedience to Christian Water Baptism.

BUT SALVATION and Spiritual Baptism took place the very MOMENT we first genuinely believed receiving HIM as LORD, as a FREE GIFT from GOD.

 

[newbirth]

are you sure?

because Christ most certainly did not say "flesh begets flesh and H[SUB]2[/SUB]O begets spirit"

and the scriptures clearly​ say Christ baptizes with spirit, not H[SUB]2[/SUB]O . . .

sure Christ baptises with spirit...but that does not change you must be born of water and the spirit...you are eliminating the water by saying you already came through water at birth....but that is flesh birth and what is born of flesh is flesh...

you try to make it look as if Christ was saying ...you are already born of water so you need to be born of the spirit to enter into the kingdom....the scripture does not say that...it says...[SUP]
5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

 

[newbirth]

AND our Christian Walk Ministry in Christ begins with obedience to Christian Water Baptism.

BUT SALVATION and Spiritual Baptism took place the very MOMENT we first genuinely believed receiving HIM as LORD, as a FREE GIFT from GOD.

scripture says he who believe and is baptised shall be saved....you say......BUT SALVATION and Spiritual Baptism took place the very MOMENT we first genuinely believed receiving HIM as LORD, as a FREE GIFT from GOD


Mark 16:16American Standard Version (ASV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

 

[posthuman]

I am the door:
by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved,
and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
(John 10:9)

H[SUB]2[/SUB]O is not the door; Jesus Christ is.

 

[VCO]

because you probably did not read the scriptures.....if you did you would notice Jesus ministry began with his baptism...Jesus is the way and he is showing Nicodemus the way .....He had power to save the thief on the cross...he forgave men of sins before the cross...You limit God by your understanding...but that does not mean God is limited....If you do not believe Christ himself and will not follow his words and example...who am I that you may hear me...because it is the same words I speak...

NOW YOU HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD!

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I am the LORD, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

READ, REPENT, and BELIEVE!

 

[VCO]

scripture says he who believe and is baptised shall be saved....you say......BUT SALVATION and Spiritual Baptism took place the very MOMENT we first genuinely believed receiving HIM as LORD, as a FREE GIFT from GOD


Mark 16:16American Standard Version (ASV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

Mark 16:14-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] He who believes and is baptized {spiritually into the body of Christ} will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.


Now here is a hard question: WHEN DID THE HOLY SPIRIT FIRST BEGIN HIS BAPTISMAL MINISTRY AS COMFORTER, before or after the Ascension of Jesus Christ our LORD?

John 14:16-19 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. <--- HE and the Holy Spirit are ONE COMFORTER and ONE GOD, ALSO.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Jeremiah 8:18 (NIV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] O my Comforter in sorrow, my heart is faint within me. <--- Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit ALL three do function as the COMFORTER, and ALL three are the ONE GOD.

John 14:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. <--- NOTICE: "which is" is in italics which means it is NOT in the original languages.

ANSWER:

John 17:21 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] May they all be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. May they also be one in Us, so the world may believe You sent Me.

Acts 2:1-4 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.


THAT IS THE INAUGURATION OF BEING IMMERSED (BAPTIZED) INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST.
After that it happens the moment one believes.


Acts 10:43-44 (ESV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard (spiritually) the word.
THERE GOES THAT THEORY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES WITH WATER BAPTISM!

 

[newbirth]

Mark 16:14-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] He who believes and is baptized {spiritually into the body of Christ} will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.


Now here is a hard question: WHEN DID THE HOLY SPIRIT FIRST BEGIN HIS BAPTISMAL MINISTRY AS COMFORTER, before or after the Ascension of Jesus Christ our LORD?

John 14:16-19 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. <--- HE and the Holy Spirit are ONE COMFORTER and ONE GOD, ALSO.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Jeremiah 8:18 (NIV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] O my Comforter in sorrow, my heart is faint within me. <--- Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit ALL three do function as the COMFORTER, and ALL three are the ONE GOD.

John 14:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. <--- NOTICE: "which is" is in italics which means it is NOT in the original languages.

ANSWER:

John 17:21 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] May they all be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. May they also be one in Us, so the world may believe You sent Me.

Acts 2:1-4 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.


THAT IS THE INAUGURATION OF BEING IMMERSED (BAPTIZED) INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST.
After that it happens the moment one believes.


Acts 10:43-44 (ESV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard (spiritually) the word.
THERE GOES THAT THEORY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES WITH WATER BAPTISM!

you insert text into the scripture {spiritually into the body of Christ} to prove your point....jumping all over the place like a headless chicken trying to disprove the truth... you must be born of water and of the spirit to enter the kingdom...there is a rebirth by water and the spirit to enter the kingdom ...you claim it is when one believe in Christ....scripture says we are baptised into Christ....into his death and raised in newness of life just as the Father raised him up from the dead....are we spirit baptised into death? No we are water baptised into his death and(reborn) raised in the power of his resurrection in the spirit which he gives us...born of water and spirit....You pretend not to understand by claiming I hold to this....THERE GOES THAT THEORY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES WITH WATER BAPTISM! ....nowhere did I ever claim that...this is what the scripture says...look at the process...repent, be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins...and you shall receive the HS
Acts 2:38American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP]And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Kerry]

The reason that Jesus said we must be born of water. was to exclude the preexisting beings. They were not given the ability to reproduce as we have. You must be born of water means that you must be a human being. meaning that your mothers water broke and you were born and has nothing to do with baptism. Unless you declare that every person born after Eve is baptized.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The reason that Jesus said we must be born of water. was to exclude the preexisting beings. They were not given the ability to reproduce as we have. You must be born of water means that you must be a human being. meaning that your mothers water broke and you were born and has nothing to do with baptism. Unless you declare that every person born after Eve is baptized.

1 Corinthians 10:1-2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea


They were baptized and this scripture makes it clear that they were.

 

[Kerry]

When was Paul Baptized with water and when was Peter, James,and John?

 

[newbirth]

1 Corinthians 10:1-2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea


They were baptized and this scripture makes it clear that they were.

The all you are referring to(God's chosen people) is not the same all(mankind) Kerry is referring to....He has a valid point...if the breaking of water is baptism then all are baptised....if I understand what he is trying to say....I must say I do not understand fully the first part of the quote

 

[newbirth]

When was Paul Baptized with water and when was Peter, James,and John?

[SUP]16 [/SUP]for I will show him how many things he must suffer for my name's sake.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And Ananias departed, and entered into the house; and laying his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, who appeared unto thee in the way which thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mayest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized;


Peter, James,and John all followed Christ and Christ was baptised ....they all preached water baptism it should be obvious they would have been water baptised if it is not recorded in scripture does not mean it did not happen.....
For my part if someone does not believe in water baptism they do not believe in the teaching of Christ therefore they do not believe in him.....

 

[kennethcadwell]

When was Paul Baptized with water and when was Peter, James,and John?

Paul ( Saul ) Acts 22:16

Peter and James ( John 3:23 )

And which John are you referring to, John the Baptist or Apostle John ?
If Apostle John then John 3:23 also, if John the Baptist then does not say.

 

[Kerry]

What I am saying is that you must be born of water, means that you must be a human being. Because all human beings save Adam and Eve, are born of water. This excludes angels or fallen angels as they have no grace nor means of salvation. Jesus had to be careful of His words.

The other ting I am saying is that it is not a requirement to be baptized in water in order to be saved, Fact in point you will not find where any Apostle was baptized in water.

It is merely a sign of your faith in the work of the cross and in many churches is a tradition of men as a sign of your salvation.

Then you have some that say that you are not saved unless you are baptized in water, which is direct conflict with the cross and John 3:16.

It is putting your works above the work of God and that is the cross.