We establish the Law...but how?

[Skinski7]

What has happened in the church system today is that instead of a "faith that works by love, love which works no ill, faith which purifies the heart" which God "reckons as righteousness," instead of that people have been deceived into believing that God counting one as righteousness is premised off "trusting in a provision."

The "provision" they believe in is Jesus living and dying as their substitute. It is taught that because they could not meet the obedience God requires that Jesus met that obedience for them (ie. as a substitute). It is also taught that Jesus also paid their fine and because it is "paid in full" it cannot be deemed due anymore (again Jesus was a substitute).

Many people are so opposed to any notion being taught that there is anything we can do as it relates to salvation because in their minds it infringes on the notion that Jesus did it all. In other words they think that by believing that we have to do something would undermine what Jesus did.

I hope that makes sense to people.

The whole things is a deception because they are viewing the sacrifice of Jesus in a false manner.

Jesus died on our behalf in order to reconcile us to God through His blood. It is the blood of Christ which enjoins us into covenant with God and we enter into that covenant through repentance and faith.

Jesus was not a substitute. Jesus did not pay our sin fine and Jesus did not obey for us. Condemnation remains over the disobedient and if we turn back to disobedience then condemnation falls upon our heads once again. This is why the Bible is replete with warning that we must endure to the end.

Salvation is an actual manifest state of walking with God having been cleansed of all iniquity and been made pure. This doesn't mean we are perfect in all that we do, it simply means we are perfect in love which is the root of all we do. As a child of God we are corrected by God when we fall short and due to us abiding in Him we yield to that correction apply what we learn and thus we have obedience unto righteousness and righteousness unto holiness the end of which is eternal life. This is the walk of a Christian.

Provisional salvation utterly denies all that because everything has been done. The "everything done" cloaks "what is not done" and thus what we have is a CLOAK FOR WICKEDNESS. This is why the church system is so full of sin. The people are taught that they cannot stop sinning just to trust in Jesus. So what do they do? They keep on sinning and trust that somehow God pretends they are righteous because of Jesus when in fact they are still wicked.

These deceived people will defend their doctrine because to seriously question it would bring the disturbing revelation that they are not actually saved.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I don't have the power nor authority to "establish the law."

Your CC login isn't rated for a holier than thou status.

 

[Elin]

Paul made it very clear in romans 9:31-33 upon those trying to attain righteousness as Israel try.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Wherefore?

Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Paul once again teaching upon the righteousness

Galatians 5:3-5

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Galatians next verse is perhaps the most important verse to focus on.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything,but faith working through love.

Great reminded

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

There ya go with the circumcision thing again.

Imagine that!

Quoting the word of God!

Who woulda' tho't it?

Outrageous!

You can't be taken seriously.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Imagine that!

Quoting the word of God!

Who woulda' tho't it?

Outrageous!

You can't be taken seriously.

Mercy! Not that there New Testament Christianity again!

 

[just-me]

MATTHEW 5:19.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

my brothers and sisters,
the grace-law-debate really just gets down to that
'we are saved by grace, rewarded according to our works and the keeping of God's Commandments
is our proof that we love Him.
GB

Never ending controversy. It reminds me of the response of Muslim terrorist. "He hit me back first!" Gaza terrorists. "We have the right to use Israel's aid to build tunnels so we can kidnap and kill their children. Time to shoot rocks." What is wrong with the children of God? Or maybe it's not the children of God.

 

[john832]

Nope. . .not what the NT says.

I don't have the power nor authority to "establish the law."

Paul did! And notice the subject here is not singular...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Elin]

People like you SNIP proof texts out of context and deceive people by not revealing the surrounding context.

Straw man.

Your use of "none righteous, not even one" is a perfect example.

Paul writes...

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The context does not change the meaning of what I stated regarding Ro 3:10.

You can quote the whole Bible,
but it will not contradict itself and will not alter Ro 3:10,
whereby Paul shows that all mankind is locked up in sin (Ro 3:19-20).

Thus your statements like this...

So you're missing something. . .and that is
"righteous" in Ro 3:10 is not the same "righteous" as Abel, Job, et al.

The "righteous" in Ro 3:10 is justification; i.e., the righteousness of Abraham, to whom it was credited
because of faith, not because of anything he did.

The Bible is not referring to justification in the cases of Abel, Job, et al.

...are pure nonsense.

Abel was declared righteous because of his FAITH.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain,
by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Agreed. . .I stand corrected.

Abel obtained witness that he was righteous by what he DID in faith.

"Righteousness" and "witness to righteousness" are two different things.

His actions witnessed externally to the internal righteousness he had by faith.
But it was not his actions that made him righteous, it was his faith that made him righteous.
His faith produced the actions, which actions witnessed to his faith.

He obtained witness that he was righteous (pre-existing) by what he did,
not witness that be became righteous by what he did.

It is exactly the same with Abraham for...

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be
the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised;
that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Note the "imputed righteousness" which you deny of those in Christ.

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision
to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Yes, Abraham was the father of both believing Gentiles and believing Jews who had the same faith as Abraham and walked in that faith.

Abraham had the "righteousness of faith" and God reckoned Abraham righteous apart from whether he was circumcised or not and therefore his righteousness was reckoned apart from the law.
That reckons us righteous too if we walk in those same steps of Abraham which are the steps of faith.

Nope. . .we are credited with righteousness because of faith,
and then we "walk in the steps of faith."

You keep trying to slip works in as the cause of our justification.
That is anti-gospel.

Faith works by love and love fulfills the law because love works no ill, love is obedient to God.

Yet you will come against that, even though the Bible teaches it,

The Bible does not teach any kind of works as the cause of our justification.
But you keep trying to slip works in as the cause of our justification.

because it contradicts your doctrine of the "imputed righteousness of Christ" which
you believe is the "obedience of Jesus being credited to your account."

And you know I believe this, how?

Nope, the righteousness that is imputed to me is justification,
whereby God declares me "not guilty," and rightwise with him
because of faith in Jesus Christ,
just as Abraham was justified, righteousness imputed to him,
because of his faith.

So. . .righteousness is imputed to Abraham, but righteousness is not imputed to those in Christ.

Wrong!

What people like you do not understand is God's mercy and grace. . .you easily buy into the invented doctrine of substitition where Jesus makes up your shortcomings for you.

Your intellectual dishonesty is showing.

The doctrine of substitution is Jesus receiving in my stead the punishment due on my guilt
(Is 53:5; 1Pe 2:24).

Yet the truth is that God does not require perfect righteousness and perfect holiness to pass through perfect judgement

Not only do you not understand the doctrine of substitution,
you also confuse justification and sanctification.

Justification, not sanctification, is what satisfies God's justice
through the propitiation of Jesus Christ for those who believe in him.

Every single Bible verse and passage you quote to substantiate your saved in sins message you rip out of context and twist it.

You have yet to show how the context of what I present changes what I present

And it would be more impressive if you addressed what is already on the table:

Post #269, here, and
Post #271, here.

 

[Elin]

What Law? If Love satisfies the Law, then it is the Law we are fulfilling when we love. Correct?

What is wrong with Love having been expressed in words? What is the difference between 'have no other god besides Me', and 'Love God...'. Not a thing. One just expresses in words the act of Love in action.

My point exactly.

So I ask you the same.

If there is no difference, why do you need more than Christ's new covenant command
(Mt 22:37-39)?

 

[Elin]

...And what about Luke 11:48-51?

. . .people like Elin, by bringing up Luke 11:48-51, try to cast me as a Pharisee because I dare say that we have to obey God.

Straw man. . .and complete failure to address Lk 11:48-51.

Why am I not surprised?

 

[Elin]

You are in agreement with the Apostle that Jesus loved, the Apostle John...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

This passage doesn't get much exposure here, does it?

Because believers here know that faith walks in obedience.

 

[Elin]

Created unto what?

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Yes, true faith walks in good works.

 

[Elin]

Because it has that four letter word: commandments?

Four letter?

Hardly. . .it's because it is obvious to believers here that faith walks in obedience,
and it doesn't need laboring.

 

[oldthennew]

could there possibly an ADDICTION to CONTENTION here in some of these posts?

may our Father put it upon each of our hearts to never worry about WHO is right,
but about WHAT is right, less we have a contest of 'who is the greatest among us'?

 

[JesusIsAll]

Four letter?

Hardly. . .it's because it is obvious to believers here that faith walks in obedience,
and it doesn't need laboring.

Ev'n I gets past tha first hand cipherin'!

 

[Elin]

The problem is the "doctrine of inability" which is necessitated by the
"doctrine of Original Sin" or "birth depravity."

Address post #269 here, and we'll go from there.

 

[Elin]

Do you fulfill the law of love?

Do you love God with ALL your heart , mind, soul and strength 100% of the time...ahem , and your neighbor as yourself?

That does not negate that the Law of the Spirit points to God's Laws which pertain to love. Now, does it?

By pointing out human failure, are you attempting to discredit Law altogether, even God's Law? This faith does not render law useless (abolish, make void), it establishes (upholds, continues) law.

I suspect it's more "Physician, heal thyself."

 

[Elin]

Check this out...

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Indeed He does.

Yet look at what Paul writes before that...

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Yes, work out what God has worked within.

Another NT exhortation to believers that if they do not walk in obedience, they should fear and tremble,
because their saving faith is in doubt.

 

[john832]

Originally Posted by cfultz3

That does not negate that the Law of the Spirit points to God's Laws which pertain to love. Now, does it?

By pointing out human failure, are you attempting to discredit Law altogether, even God's Law? This faith does not render law useless (abolish, make void), it establishes (upholds, continues) law.

I suspect it's more "Physician, heal thyself."

Point illustrated Cfultz3, my friend.

 

[Elin]

I do agree with this. We are not born sinners, we are born neutral. Satan, the prince of the power of the air is broadcasting 24/7. Even little babies pick up these broadcasts and begin to manifest self and get. The only cure is conversion and the Holy Spirit to lead us.

Perhaps you would like to address post #269, here.

We got some serious ignorance of the NT in this group.

 

[john832]

Perhaps you would like to address post #269, here.

We got some serious ignorance of the NT in this group.

Yes and it seems to be concentrated in just a couple of posters here.