We establish the Law...but how?

[Elin]

The real question is what is the Law?

In the new covenant, it is the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39; Ro 9:21; Gal 5:6) spoken
by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers in their commands
and exhortations.

 

[chubbena]

That is a pretty good observation in regards to how institutional authority works.

I also view many of these things as exercises. It is excellent training for the street and makes contending for the truth much easier because on a forums people have much more complex arguments and when addressing the various points it really helps the thinking process of breaking things down and looking at the underlying fundamentals and thus in the streets it is very easy to answer any question because all the issues have already been dealt with in depth.

Forums like Christianchat make good training grounds for contenders of the faith, so long as they are already grounded in the truth lest they be deceived by the errors which abound.


I wouldn't defend John Calvin though. Even though he was writing against the system of the time he nonetheless had his own agenda in doing so. He was an intellectual and was clearly unwilling to bend his mind to the scripture and would thus force the scripture to bend to his mind. He did this because he had committed himself to many of the fundamentals of Augustine, primarily Original Sin and Augustinian Predestination. That was the mindset with which he approached the Bible when developing his systematic theology and can see it where he flat out denies certain passages and butchers them into saying what he wants them to day.

Here is a quote from John Calvin I have used a few times in the past which serves to illustrate just how off base he was...


Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

John Calvin simply could not perceive that faith is the working principle of yielding to God by which we are internally cleansed and made pure. Instead he saw "Christ's righteousness" as a substitute for purity on our part.

In order to believe that He had to ignore the teachings of Jesus because they contradict the Totally Depravity and Substitutional Provision he believed in. I am pretty sure he probably didn't dwell on it much and thus his rejection of the truth was at a more unconscious level (like most people) yet nonetheless it is willful rebellion.

All the lost sheep need is His voice and when they hear they will follow. It's a good place to broadcast here at CC where the lost might drop by. Of course the wolves are attracted also.
The Lord never had to contend with the sheep but rather the religious leaders. The sheep would never ask if scripture is valid but rather to understand. The wolves would always challenge and accuse with scripture at face value and never go deep. I'm learning to answer posts with these examples in the NT in mind.
I'm not defending Calvin but I consider his writings, among others, valuable. In fact, I consider many writers in the 16th to 18th centuries, who did not trash the OT like many do here but did have misunderstanding of the word, valuable.
You and I might not agree on everything but we both uphold the law nevertheless

 

[chubbena]

In charge? We don't let the Holy Spirit regenerate us.
We have nothing to do with our spiritual rebirth, just as we have nothing to do with our natural birth.

Until his sinful unregenerate nature is reborn of the Holy Spirit into eternal life,
unregenerate man is rebellious, insubordinate and spiritually powerless to do anything that pleases God.

Can't help if one wants to paint my post to push her agenda.

 

[Elin]

What struggle if one believes to obey the Lord is one thing and to keep the law is another?
But Paul wrote: "I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."
He also wrote: "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."
Not until one lets the Holy Spirit in charge would he be able to submit to God's law.

In charge? We don't let the Holy Spirit regenerate us.
We have nothing to do with our spiritual rebirth, just as we have nothing to do with our natural birth.

Until his sinful unregenerate nature is reborn of the Holy Spirit into eternal life,
unregenerate man is rebellious, insubordinate and spiritually powerless to do anything that pleases God.

Can't help if one wants to paint my post to push her agenda.

But you can help stating what Scripture does not state, which causes the problem.

 

[chubbena]

But you can help stating what Scripture does not state, which causes the problem.

The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
To some the mind governed by the Spirit definitely does not mean letting the Spirit in charge of the mind because the wordings are different.

Some rely on empty arguments, they utter lies; they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.

 

[crossnote]

The real question is what is the Law?

In context of Rom 3:31 the law is God's mirror of righteousness either written on the heart (Gentiles) or given verbally/written (Jews) in which if a man lives accordingly he is justified/ declared as righteous before God. Also in context of Rom 2 and 3, no man has attained the righteousness of the Law except One...Jesus Christ.
Thus those who point to Christ, trust in, uplift, defer to, acknowledge that, confess that He is righteous and only Him is establishing the Law as it was meant to be lived and are not pointing to themselves.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The law is GODs standard and in the old testament it is GODs law and we know that GOD does not change,but when the law was given the WORD of GOD/JESUS had not yet come into the world in the flesh yet,so then wouldn't a person have to keep the law without help and no man was able to keep it except JESUS.

A person saying since GOD gave it in the old testament we then should try to keep it even though we know we keep coming up short and GOD will only accept perfection(the inward man).

If you are still trying to keep it then you are still on milk and haven't learned and are still crawling.

If that's where you are then I understand but when its time to walk don't you think you should come up higher, eat meat and stop crawling.


1 Corinthians 13:11king james version(kjv)

11.)When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And if you don't accept that then here is another scripture

2 Timothy3:7

king james version(kjv)

7.)Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[chubbena]

In context of Rom 3:31 the law is God's mirror of righteousness either written on the heart (Gentiles) or given verbally/written (Jews) in which if a man lives accordingly he is justified/ declared as righteous before God. Also in context of Rom 2 and 3, no man has attained the righteousness of the Law except One...Jesus Christ.
Thus those who point to Christ, trust in, uplift, defer to, acknowledge that, confess that He is righteous and only Him is establishing the Law as it was meant to be lived and are not pointing to themselves.

Please define "in context" because I don't see "in context" of the book of Romans saying the law written on the heart (gentiles). In fact, the reader of Jeremiah 31 were "Jews" indicated the law is promised to be written primarily on the heart of Jews and in Romans 11 it's because of the hardening of the heart in part of the Jews that salvation comes to the gentiles. The way I see it is gentiles are grafted into the genuine Israel nation so there's only one law in the heart and no either or. Please clarify.

 

[chubbena]

The law is GODs standard and in the old testament it is GODs law and we know that GOD does not change,but when the law was given the WORD of GOD/JESUS had not yet come into the world in the flesh yet,so then wouldn't a person have to keep the law without help and no man was able to keep it except JESUS.

A person saying since GOD gave it in the old testament we then should try to keep it even though we know we keep coming up short and GOD will only accept perfection(the inward man).

If you are still trying to keep it then you are still on milk and haven't learned and are still crawling.

If that's where you are then I understand but when its time to walk don't you think you should come up higher, eat meat and stop crawling.


1 Corinthians 13:11king james version(kjv)

11.)When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And if you don't accept that then here is another scripture

2 Timothy3:7

king james version(kjv)

7.)Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Man are "enable" to keep by atonement of sins then and now. Then typified by animal sacrifice now by His.
The Word of God said it's not too difficult in the past then taught by action Himself in the flesh.
One should ask why He could do it and why we couldn't when in Christ we are create new and have the freedom to choose between good and bad.
And spare the "are you perfect?" arguments because He said "be perfect" which is the goal to attain. He didn't have to say that if in Him we are already perfect.
The thought of erasing the law to become perfect is as absurd as throwing out all academic standards in school so everyone gets a free pass to graduation.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Man are "enable" to keep by atonement of sins then and now. Then typified by animal sacrifice now by His.
The Word of God said it's not too difficult in the past then taught by action Himself in the flesh.
One should ask why He could do it and why we couldn't when in Christ we are create new and have the freedom to choose between good and bad.
And spare the "are you perfect?" arguments because He said "be perfect" which is the goal to attain. He didn't have to say that if in Him we are already perfect.
The thought of erasing the law to become perfect is as absurd as throwing out all academic standards in school so everyone gets a free pass to graduation.

They were not able to keep the law in the old testament because of the of the weakness of the flesh.

GOD only accepts perfection,and since JESUS was the only one that was sin free not only in the flesh,but also inside and since GOD will only accept perfection,didn't we need someone who was/is perfect.

I hope by trying to be obedient to the law of Moses you don't feel like you are helping GOD out because if you are not keeping the law perfectly you need a savoir who was perfect or you will not be accepted.

The thought of erasing the law to become perfect is as absurd as throwing out all academic standards in school so everyone gets a free pass to graduation.

I'm not saying throw it out.
The law was given for a reason

Its hard for tradition of men to believe its GRACE through faith.
they feel like they have to do something other than believe the WORD who GOD sent.

 

[Elin]

To some the mind governed by the Spirit definitely does not mean letting the Spirit in charge of the mind because the wordings are different.

How is the wording different?

 

[chubbena]

They were not able to keep the law in the old testament because of the of the weakness of the flesh.

GOD only accepts perfection,and since JESUS was the only one that was sin free not only in the flesh,but also inside and since GOD will only accept perfection,didn't we need someone who was/is perfect.

I hope by trying to be obedient to the law of Moses you don't feel like you are helping GOD out because if you are not keeping the law perfectly you need a savoir who was perfect or you will not be accepted.

I'm not saying throw it out.
The law was given for a reason

Its hard for tradition of men to believe its GRACE through faith.
they feel like they have to do something other than believe the WORD who GOD sent.

They were not able because of unbelief (faithless in God) because the Word of God said the law is not difficult to keep Deuteronomy 30:11-14 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
There is a reason for Paul to quote such.
All it takes is trust in God and trust in His forgiveness.

But some trust in their own weakness and say they never will.

 

[chubbena]

How is the wording different?

Gotta ask the one who said the scripture does not teach us to let the Spirit in charge to be able to submit to God's law. Of course I again mistook someone with someone.

 

[Elin]

To some the mind governed by the Spirit definitely does not mean letting the Spirit in charge of the mind because the wordings are different.

How are the wordings different?

Gotta ask the one who said the scripture does not teach us to let the Spirit in charge to be able to submit to God's law.

I'm asking the one who said the wordings are different. . .how are the wordings different?

 

[RedTent]

But you can help stating what Scripture does not state, which causes the problem.

I realize you are sincere in your misunderstanding, but it truly is causing a problem. So many things are not as you see them. Christ did not change the law, Christ explained it thoroughly by making the same eternal law one that includes the spirit. Christ did not cancel anything when Christ died for our sins, when Christ established the new covenant. God our creator is still our Father, our loving Father sent His son for our salvation it always was that way in eternity time. If you would read the OT with the idea of wondering if Christ changed it, and go to the NT to see that change, you would see what Christ did. Some things remains the same, and each change Christ made is based on what the OT did to prepare for Christ and is related to it.

We have one word, one God, everything is united.

 

[crossnote]

Please define "in context" because I don't see "in context" of the book of Romans saying the law written on the heart (gentiles). In fact, the reader of Jeremiah 31 were "Jews" indicated the law is promised to be written primarily on the heart of Jews and in Romans 11 it's because of the hardening of the heart in part of the Jews that salvation comes to the gentiles. The way I see it is gentiles are grafted into the genuine Israel nation so there's only one law in the heart and no either or. Please clarify.

On the heart for gentiles...

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
(Rom 2:14-15)

This of course is speaking of unregenerate Gentiles. I agree, Jeremiah's promise (Jer 31)of the new birth can be seen as a rewriting on the heart with indelible ink.

I see the Gentiles being grafted into the spiritual blessings of Abraham/Israel but not the physical (another topic for sure).

 

[Elin]

I realize you are sincere in your misunderstanding, but it truly is causing a problem.
So many things are not as you see them.
Christ did not change the law, Christ explained it thoroughly

Yes, I don't see things as you see them.

I don't see Christ thoroughly explaining all the Levitical regulations, etc.

What I see is the wine in those old skins replaced with the new wine in new skins.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

They were not able because of unbelief (faithless in God) because the Word of God said the law is not difficult to keep Deuteronomy 30:11-14 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
There is a reason for Paul to quote such.
All it takes is trust in God and trust in His forgiveness.

But some trust in their own weakness and say they never will.

Hello chubbena
But thats the way GOD related to the children of Isreal before JESUS came down and died on the cross and nailed the handwriting of ordinances that was against us to the cross.
Since JESUS has finished the work,don't you think a person is in a way saying that what JESUS did was not enough and i need to help out.
I think the person needs to accept the grace provided and just rest.
A person can't mix the law with grace.
Its either all GOD or its all you.

Why did JESUS even come down if HOLY GOD will only accept truth on the inside?

 

[BradC]

I realize you are sincere in your misunderstanding, but it truly is causing a problem. So many things are not as you see them. Christ did not change the law, Christ explained it thoroughly by making the same eternal law one that includes the spirit. Christ did not cancel anything when Christ died for our sins, when Christ established the new covenant. God our creator is still our Father, our loving Father sent His son for our salvation it always was that way in eternity time. If you would read the OT with the idea of wondering if Christ changed it, and go to the NT to see that change, you would see what Christ did. Some things remains the same, and each change Christ made is based on what the OT did to prepare for Christ and is related to it.

We have one word, one God, everything is united.

Mention those things that remained the same after the death, burial and resurrection (DBR) of Christ and when you do, please explain the application of this verse of scripture in (2Cor 5:17)...

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What were the old things that passed away and what are the all things that have become new?

If old things are passed away and all things have become new for those who believe in Christ, how does the law apply to those who are new creatures in Christ? How did the law apply to those who were under the law before Christ came and was crucified? After Christ's (DBR) how did the law apply to those who Christ made new creatures in Him? No man prior to the (DBR) of Christ were made new creatures, they were under the law and had to abide by the law. If Christ came only to take away the condemnation of the law, He could have done that without shedding his blood, for he could have taken away the law given it no application and premise for man to be under it. But Christ did not come to do that or to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

God through the law was not able to impute His righteousness to man because sinful man was not able to keep it through the weakness of his sinful flesh. So God sent his Son and according to (2Cor 5:19) did this...

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

How did God not impute the trespasses of the world unto them when they were guilty? He did so by vicariously imputing those trespasses onto the body of his Son and by doing so, God took away not only the condemnation of the law but every single violation of it, therefore it cancelled the purpose of the law that all men were under.

Col 2:13,14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 

[chubbena]

I'm asking the one who said the wordings are different. . .how are the wordings different?

One might want to go to post #433 and see how one pulled two words out of my post and made a speech.