Hell

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T

tonto

Guest
The idea of a place of fiery torment and punishment is most often preached in the fundamentalist churches who have adopted this as a hell-fire and damnation method of attempting to scare uninformed and unlearned people into salvation. They preach that the Christ has failed and failed miserably in accomplishing the very mission the Father sent Him to accomplish. It is so sad indeed that they render our Savior impotent and a failure. Our God is a loving God. He would never punish anyone for years without the due process of a trial. That trial will take place in the future at the Great White Throne judgment. No one is burning in any fire right now. The dead are dead and will remain so until called forth in one or the other of the resurrections.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
The idea of a place of fiery torment and punishment is most often preached in the fundamentalist churches who have adopted this as a hell-fire and damnation method of attempting to scare uninformed and unlearned people into salvation. They preach that the Christ has failed and failed miserably in accomplishing the very mission the Father sent Him to accomplish. It is so sad indeed that they render our Savior impotent and a failure. Our God is a loving God. He would never punish anyone for years without the due process of a trial. That trial will take place in the future at the Great White Throne judgment. No one is burning in any fire right now. The dead are dead and will remain so until called forth in one or the other of the resurrections.
Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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The idea of a place of fiery torment and punishment is most often preached in the fundamentalist churches who have adopted this as a hell-fire and damnation method of attempting to scare uninformed and unlearned people into salvation. They preach that the Christ has failed and failed miserably in accomplishing the very mission the Father sent Him to accomplish. It is so sad indeed that they render our Savior impotent and a failure. Our God is a loving God. He would never punish anyone for years without the due process of a trial. That trial will take place in the future at the Great White Throne judgment. No one is burning in any fire right now. The dead are dead and will remain so until called forth in one or the other of the resurrections.
Well unfortunately Jesus must have been misinformed and or ignorant when he used a present context about a rich man burning in a place of fiery torment and who begged for the other guy to be sent back to warn his brothers.....don't you think it would be false, misleading or plain stupid to use an analogy that was false, filled with untruths and contrary to the truth that he was supposedly trying to preach? The above post is based upon ignorance and a rejection of the very nature and character of GOD! As well as a rejection of the word of God!
 
May 2, 2014
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I'm not a proponent of eternal suffering, but what do you think of these?

"And*Abraham*planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting (owlam) God." Ge.21:33

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting (aionios) life.
Hi jdbear,

Here's how I understand it, the word Owlam literally means, time unseen. The Jews looked at time as a journey what they could see was limited to the next rise or hill in the road. So, what is beyond the horizon cannot be seen, this time beyond the horizon would be Owlam. Here's a link to a Hebrew site that explains owlam.

Hebrew Word Meanings

Aionios is the adjective form of aion, which is eon. An eon or aion is an undefined, long, period of time. By definition aion is undefined, it could be, 1000 years, 10,000years, or it may never end. If we say aionios means eternal or forever, we have givein it a definite duration and thus it cannot mean a time period shorter than eternity. The problem with that is that the Scriptures use it for things that did come to an end thus a time period shorter than eternity.

If we look at owlam as time unseen or a time in the distant past or future we can see how those who translated the Septuagint used aion (an age) to represent owlam.


People may ask if aionios doesn't mean eternal then how do we know believers will have eternal life? I believe the believer will have eternal life, not because of the word aionios, but, rather Jesus statement about sons of the resurrection.

35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:35-36 NKJ)

He said, "nor can they die anymore," that's eternal life, they cannot die anymore.
 
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well then, by going what what the eternal nay sayers have said, we will not have eternal life with God. Interesting.
Hi Radius,

Even though aionios cannot mean eternal we know that the believer has eternal life because of what Jesus said,

35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:35-36 NKJ)

Jesus said the sons of the resurrection can't die anymore, that is eternal life.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
Well unfortunately Jesus must have been misinformed and or ignorant when he used a present context about a rich man burning in a place of fiery torment and who begged for the other guy to be sent back to warn his brothers.....don't you think it would be false, misleading or plain stupid to use an analogy that was false, filled with untruths and contrary to the truth that he was supposedly trying to preach? The above post is based upon ignorance and a rejection of the very nature and character of GOD! As well as a rejection of the word of God!
Some people, especially the cults, spend half their lives trying to convince people the Bible doesn't say what it clearly says.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Some people, especially the cults, spend half their lives trying to convince people the Bible doesn't say what it clearly says.
I agree for sure......! No matter how they try one day soon and too late for many the realities of such a place will come into focus and by then.......snap, crackle and pop will have new meaning for sure!
 
T

tonto

Guest
Well unfortunately Jesus must have been misinformed and or ignorant when he used a present context about a rich man burning in a place of fiery torment and who begged for the other guy to be sent back to warn his brothers.....don't you think it would be false, misleading or plain stupid to use an analogy that was false, filled with untruths and contrary to the truth that he was supposedly trying to preach? The above post is based upon ignorance and a rejection of the very nature and character of GOD! As well as a rejection of the word of God!
Not really. You just don't understand what Christ was teaching in the parable. Actually, to cut to the chase, Christ gave His last warning to the Jews that if they didn't accept Him, He was going to turn salvation unto the Gentiles. He did this shortly after speaking the warning to them when they killed Steven.

Friend, if anyone is burning in your Hell he/she is totally unaware of it and is feeling no pain at all because his/her mind is totally gone as many scriptures so state.

You really believe our God to be even more heinous than Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot? Amazing. Don't feel bad, a lot of folks do. I wonder what answer they will give if He ever asks them why they think Christ failed in his mission or why they assaulted His personal character?
 
May 2, 2014
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11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev 14:11 NKJ)

This passage is put forth as one that shows that that wicked will suffer for eternity, however, is that what the passage actually says?

Well, there are several problems with that idea. For one thing, forever is the Greek word "aion" and we've already seen that this word cannot mean forever. However, there are also other problems with that idea. one problem is that the word "worship" is present tense, in other words, the smoke of their torment is ascending while they are worshipping the beast. That means that these people are alive, not dead. Another problem for that interpreation, is that the saints are there just look at the nest verse.

11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev 14:11-12 NKJ)

The Greek word "hode" means in this place. So the saints of God are in this place. If this is the Lake of Fire why are the saints of God there?
 
T

tonto

Guest
Some people, especially the cults, spend half their lives trying to convince people the Bible doesn't say what it clearly says.
Or perhaps they actually have studied the Bible?
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
I agree for sure......! No matter how they try one day soon and too late for many the realities of such a place will come into focus and by then.......snap, crackle and pop will have new meaning for sure!
I can't say I share your "snap, crackle and pop" characterization. I know I'm crazy sometimes, too, but I really do fear there are those who don't understand, accept, the blood of Christ, do not really know the word of God (clearly), have created their own religions that we do know are not of New Testament Christianity and of the Holy Spirit. One must ponder what this implies, for certain.
 
T

tonto

Guest
I agree for sure......! No matter how they try one day soon and too late for many the realities of such a place will come into focus and by then.......snap, crackle and pop will have new meaning for sure!
Yes indeed. It's down there right besides that Paradise that Christ and the thief ran off to when they died. That Paradise with the streams of water and palm trees smack in the middle of a fireball of molten nickel. Oh yes, Christ went and emptied it all out and freed the captives held there too, right? I heard all these false doctrines probably before you were even born.
 
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Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Hi Jesusisall,

Have you considered the problems created by taking this as an actual event?
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
Have you considered the problems created by taking this as an actual event?
Most certainly. It is a huge problem for all who reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, monumental problem of problems to suffer the fate of the rich man, this being of a reality the Lord Jesus clearly taught.

Mark 9:42-48 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
 
T

tonto

Guest
Most certainly. It is a huge problem for all who reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, monumental problem of problems to suffer the fate of the rich man, this being of a reality the Lord Jesus clearly taught.

Mark 9:42-48 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
You really need to be able to sort out the apples and the oranges. This Hell you promote is understood by most folks as being that fictitious fairy tale place fundamentalists condemn sinners to suffer for years on end upon their deaths and is somehow located somewhere in the middle of the earth.

The Lake of Fire is understood by most as being the a possibility facing those who stand before the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the millennial reign of Christ.

Learn that the two are separate things.

Here's a good article on the state of the dead. Brian also has one of the very best articles on the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man I have ever read as well.

Are the Dead Conscious or Asleep? - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
 
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Sep 26, 2014
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This thread has become ridiculous. You have a few sharing actual Scriptural exegesis, and a few quoting the same Luke 16 parable over and over. This doesn't even include the amount of non-Christ-like bashing of a whole Christian denomination. The wheels are spinning, but the vehicle is going nowhere. Truth has been shared and the blind remain blind while saying they see. Those trying to share truth might as well spend their time on someone who is actually trying to learn something. I hate speaking this way, however, the strong delusion on the minds of some people must be from the LORD.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

God Bless
 
May 2, 2014
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There are some problems with understanding Luke 16 as an actual event. In Luke 16 the rich man is said to be in Hades suffering in the flames. Jesus is the one who spoke these words, but let's look at what else Jesus said.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mar 9:43-44 KJV)

Here Jesus speaks of the fire that shall never be quenched, yet the word translated "hell" here is not Hades, it's Gehenna. So according to Jesus the place of fiery torment is Gehenna, not Hades. So why then then did Jesus say the rich man was in Hades in the flames? Surely Jesus knew which is the place of fiery torment. In searching the Scriptures the only reference I could find that speaks of fire in Hades (other than the passage in question) is in Deuteronomy 32:22.

KJV Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deu 32:22 KJV)

This is in a passage where God tells Moses that the Children of Israel will turn away from God and they will bring Him to anger and He will bring judgment on them. In Luke 16 Jesus is speaking of judgment being brought on the leadership of Israel. So, the only other mention of fire in Hades is not speaking of literal fire but rather God's anger, why would we expect Jesus parable to be speaking of literal fire, especially when He is the one who told us the place of fiery torment was Gehenna, not Hades?