What did the Jew receive first?

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RedTent

RedTent

Banned
#521
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
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0
#521
1still_waters said:
I don't have to rely on my works.
Relying on my works is work.
Jesus carried it all, I rely on Him and what he did for me.

Work = relying on what I do.
Rest = relying on what Jesus did.

Of course I do works.
But I don't rely on them.
If I relied on them, then that would be work, and not rest.
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If you relied on works then you would be as powerful as God, making what you do able to handle eternal life. Love it, knowing of grace.

But it doesn't connect not relying on works for salvation to equate ignoring that we have a special day God made into a special day for us. It doesn't seem to connect.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#522
#522
RedTent said:
If you relied on works then you would be as powerful as God, making what you do able to handle eternal life. Love it, knowing of grace.

But it doesn't connect not relying on works for salvation to equate ignoring that we have a special day God made into a special day for us. It doesn't seem to connect.
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Jesus = Sabbath.
Trusting in Jesus = not ignoring that special day because.
Jesus = Sabbath.

Any other suggestions on how not to ignore that special day?
 
RedTent

RedTent

Banned
#523
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#523
1still_waters said:
How would I treat it as a special day if there is nothing I can physically do to treat it as a special day, considering it's all spiritual?

You seem to be saying Sabbath should be treated as a distinctly different/special day than the other six days.
How could I treat it as more special than the other six days?
Any suggestions?
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Scripture says it is special---so that would mean different. Christ said that it wasn't to be treated as a day to forget other things of scripture. Christ showed how not healing someone needing that kindness wouldn't be honoring the Sabbath. Also, obedience only by the letter so it would be OK to be hungry to obey not working. The suggestion is to rest from our labors on that day (not to be confused with resting in Christ for forgiveness). Some people do special scripture study as their rest, some spend it with family, some devote time to church that day. Strict orders on exactly how each person was to rest could get into a sticky mess of legalism. One long thread said doctors and druggist could refuse to help sick people that day based on this, but Christ showed that wasn't the way to honor Sabbath.

I don't see how it would be possible to honor a special day without any involvement of doing that man says is "work". Being spiritual isn't sitting on an isolated stool repeating that you are spiritual. It isn't even stopping your regular work now and then telling everyone you are now having spiritual thoughts.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#524
#524
RedTent said:
Scripture says it is special---so that would mean different. Christ said that it wasn't to be treated as a day to forget other things of scripture. Christ showed how not healing someone needing that kindness wouldn't be honoring the Sabbath. Also, obedience only by the letter so it would be OK to be hungry to obey not working. The suggestion is to rest from our labors on that day (not to be confused with resting in Christ for forgiveness). Some people do special scripture study as their rest, some spend it with family, some devote time to church that day. Strict orders on exactly how each person was to rest could get into a sticky mess of legalism. One long thread said doctors and druggist could refuse to help sick people that day based on this, but Christ showed that wasn't the way to honor Sabbath.

I don't see how it would be possible to honor a special day without any involvement of doing that man says is "work". Being spiritual isn't sitting on an isolated stool repeating that you are spiritual. It isn't even stopping your regular work now and then telling everyone you are now having spiritual thoughts.
Click to expand...
So no labor = observing the special day?
 
RedTent

RedTent

Banned
#525
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#525
1still_waters said:
Jesus = Sabbath.
Trusting in Jesus = not ignoring that special day because.
Jesus = Sabbath.

Any other suggestions on how not to ignore that special day?
Click to expand...
Where is it that the definition of Sabbath is Jesus? I thought the definition of that word was a certain day of the week. We communicate with words, it insert the word Sabbath in a bible translation instead of Jesus wouldn't help us understand scripture. Forgiveness of sin through Sabbath? Won't work.
 
vic1980

vic1980

Senior Member
#527
Apr 25, 2013
1,653
199
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#527
What Did the Jews recived first.

Psalms 107:20-21

He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

22 And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.


Now that is something we can all agree with yay :)
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#528
#528
RedTent said:
Where is it that the definition of Sabbath is Jesus? I thought the definition of that word was a certain day of the week. We communicate with words, it insert the word Sabbath in a bible translation instead of Jesus wouldn't help us understand scripture. Forgiveness of sin through Sabbath? Won't work.
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Colossians 2
16 Therefore, don’t let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.[a] 17 These are a shadow of what was to come; the substance is[b] the Messiah.

Jesus = substance of Sabbath.


 
M

MidniteWelder

Guest
#529
#529
When Jesus being asked about working (doing the Fathers work, healing, preaching, teaching picking grain, etc) on the Sabbath instead of being in the temple
...Jesus pointed out
something greater than the Temple is now here...when that something hadn't been manifested here before that time
(what would that something be?)
 
RedTent

RedTent

Banned
#530
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#530
1still_waters said:
Colossians 2
16 Therefore, don’t let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.[a] 17 These are a shadow of what was to come; the substance is[b] the Messiah.

Jesus = substance of Sabbath.
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Do you think that we are being told, through these truths, not to honor the seventh day or have any festival honoring the Lord, as we live in today. There would go Christmas and Easter!
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#531
#531
RedTent said:
How legalistic do you want to get? Christ picked some grain on the Sabbath and legalist said he worked.
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This is where I get confused with your interpretation.

On one hand you say Sabbath is a special day, calling for some type of special action on our part.
RedTent said:
Scripture says it is special---so that would mean different. Christ said that it wasn't to be treated as a day to forget other things of scripture. Christ showed how not healing someone needing that kindness wouldn't be honoring the Sabbath. Also, obedience only by the letter so it would be OK to be hungry to obey not working. The suggestion is to rest from our labors on that day (not to be confused with resting in Christ for forgiveness). Some people do special scripture study as their rest, some spend it with family, some devote time to church that day. Strict orders on exactly how each person was to rest could get into a sticky mess of legalism. One long thread said doctors and druggist could refuse to help sick people that day based on this, but Christ showed that wasn't the way to honor Sabbath.

I don't see how it would be possible to honor a special day without any involvement of doing that man says is "work". Being spiritual isn't sitting on an isolated stool repeating that you are spiritual. It isn't even stopping your regular work now and then telling everyone you are now having spiritual thoughts.
Click to expand...
But then when pressed on actual ways to observe said special day with said actions you say..
RedTent said:
How legalistic do you want to get? Christ picked some grain on the Sabbath and legalist said he worked.
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Acting as if asking about what type of action to take makes one lean into legalism.
Yet just before you implied it's a special day that requires some type of special action on our part to observe said special day.

So how do we get out of this confusing loop?

If it's a special day calling for some sort of action on our part, you can't then claim questions about which actions to take are associated with "legalism".

If observing sabbath is more than resting in Jesus, then asking which actions to take shouldn't be associated with legalism.

If legalism is associated with which actions to take, then one shouldn't say we need to do more than rest in Jesus to observe Sabbath.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#532
#532
RedTent said:
Do you think that we are being told, through these truths, not to honor the seventh day or have any festival honoring the Lord, as we live in today. There would go Christmas and Easter!
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Christians are free to observe feasts and festivals.
This discussion is about whether one is walking in disobedience if they DON'T observe the physical rituals of the feast/festivals/sabbaths. Earlier you indicated this was only about spiritually acknowledging them, and we wouldn't be considered disobedient if we didn't do the actual rituals.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#533
#533
1still_waters said:
Christians are free to observe feasts and festivals.
This discussion is about whether one is walking in disobedience if they DON'T observe the physical rituals of the feast/festivals/sabbaths. Earlier you indicated this was only about spiritually acknowledging them, and we wouldn't be considered disobedient if we didn't do the actual rituals.
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1still_waters said:
Ok so you're saying...

"Hey you need to really read and understand the rituals of the feasts, festivals, and Sabbaths, so you can get their spiritual meaning. But by no means do you actually have to physically practice any of the rituals."

Is that a proper understanding of what you're saying?
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like.jpg

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RedTent

RedTent

Banned
#534
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#534
1still_waters said:
This is where I get confused with your interpretation.

On one hand you say Sabbath is a special day, calling for some type of special action on our part.


But then when pressed on actual ways to observe said special day with said actions you say..


Acting as if asking about what type of action to take makes one lean into legalism.
Yet just before you implied it's a special day that requires some type of special action on our part to observe said special day.

So how do we get out of this confusing loop?

If it's a special day calling for some sort of action on our part, you can't then claim questions about which actions to take are associated with "legalism".

If observing sabbath is more than resting in Jesus, then asking which actions to take shouldn't not be associated with legalism.

If legalism is associated with which actions to take, then one shouldn't say we need to do more than rest in Jesus to observe Sabbath.
Click to expand...
Not unless all action is legalism. When I use that word I am thinking of making a rule for every man to act in a certain way regardless of the man, the times he lives in, the circumstances. Scripture says to rest on the Sabbath, and scripture would not use legalism in their instructions. The Pharisees used rules on how to rest on that day, and Christ scolded them for their legalism. So there is a difference. Evidently, when we are instructed to rest from our labors on one day a week, and when Christ explained what wasn't included and scolded the Pharisees for legalism, we are supposed to be able to work out a plan for this ourselves. It couldn't be a one plan fits all situations and all men. It would have to be an individual plan from the heart. It would have to fit within how we are instructed about it to be the best for us.

Please, please don't go in to this sin, not obedience thing about it all!! We are speaking about how the Lord selected a good way for us to live.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#535
#535
Ok really I need to quit this back and forth. I haven't done this much back and forth concerning doctrine for a while.
I'm like a person on a diet going to an all you can eat buffet. I had better leave before I gain it all back. :p

Again thanks for the back and forth, I need to let you have the last word. If I don't my fear is I'll do binge online debating and not come up for air for months.

ciao til another time..
 
vic1980

vic1980

Senior Member
#536
Apr 25, 2013
1,653
199
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#536
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

righteousness
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: greek2"]δικαίωμα
[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]requirement
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

1345. dikaióma

Strong's Concordance
dikaióma: an ordinance, a sentence of acquittal or condemnation, a righteous deed​
Original Word: δικαίωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: dikaióma
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah'-yo-mah)
Short Definition: a thing pronounced to be just
Definition: a thing pronounced (by God) to be righteous (just, the right); or the restoration of a criminal, a fresh chance given him; a righteous deed, an instance of perfect righteousness.

Romans 8 speaks upon the flesh & the spirit , Galatians 5 speak upon the flesh & how to walk in the spirit. God wants us to walk according to Galatians 5

God bless
 
RedTent

RedTent

Banned
#537
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#537
1still_waters said:
Ok really I need to quit this back and forth. I haven't done this much back and forth concerning doctrine for a while.
I'm like a person on a diet going to an all you can eat buffet. I had better leave before I gain it all back. :p

Again thanks for the back and forth, I need to let you have the last word. If I don't my fear is I'll do binge online debating and not come up for air for months.

ciao til another time..
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I do send you such love! To discuss purely scripture has been absolutely wonderful for me, So often it gets into blaming so it is ruined, you kept to what scripture means. We could love the Lord together in separate ways, it was wonderful.
 
RedTent

RedTent

Banned
#538
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#538
vic1980 said:
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

righteousness
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: greek2"]δικαίωμα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]requirement[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

1345. dikaióma

Strong's Concordance
dikaióma: an ordinance, a sentence of acquittal or condemnation, a righteous deed​
Original Word: δικαίωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: dikaióma
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah'-yo-mah)
Short Definition: a thing pronounced to be just
Definition: a thing pronounced (by God) to be righteous (just, the right); or the restoration of a criminal, a fresh chance given him; a righteous deed, an instance of perfect righteousness.

Romans 8 speaks upon the flesh & the spirit , Galatians 5 speak upon the flesh & how to walk in the spirit. God wants us to walk according to Galatians 5

God bless
Click to expand...
Most people read these two chapters without understanding them at all. They don't know a thing about what it was like when there was no radio or TV to tell about Christ, and He was new to the world. Even the Jews who knew about Him and accepted Him also knew about how they were raised to be Jewish. Gentiles lived a very different kind of life and felt those Jews had very strange ways of doing things, altho their God was wonderful. Some decided it was worth taking on the strange ways to be part of the Jew God. Christ and His ways made it even better. Jews wee told to make the gentiles toe the line if they wanted to join. That is the world Paul was speaking to. Arguments about what to do about the gentiles is mostly what the book of Acts is about. Paul said he was a Torah keeping Jew, but joining the Hebrew God wasn't about becoming Jewish.

Today, people read these chapters as people who not only want to not be Jewish, but don't want to have anything to do with the God before Christ lived on earth. They think that God talked of stoning, of the 613 laws, and gave laws to Moses saying to either do as I say or you will go to hell. The word Torah their bibles translate as law never enters their mind. That God is love wanting only goodness and salvation for mankind, who created a wonderful world and body for them to live in had never occurred to them. So, they say, here is scripture telling us we are right in thinking all that.

Paul would be shocked at what you think he says. He used some pretty strong words about requiring gentiles to be Jewish in all their ways to be accepted by God. But he wasn't against all people today say he was. You could choose your own food, but he was strict about the food you put in your mind and soul. You could not have baby boys circumcised, but everyone was to be alive in the spirit and not live by the flesh. Paul always spoke for living in a Godly way as we give God the glory.

Today, gentiles look on kosher eating etc. as a worse sin than Jews looked on the eating of pork before. The idea of Jew and gentile one under Christ as Paul explained it is completely foreign to the minds of most gentiles. Moses, a main character according to Christ, has been demoted so badly, some say Christ destroyed him and all God told him, now.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#539
#539
Red & 1still_waters,

you've both just received 2 great-big hugs,
and we pray Jesus sends each a Holy hug also!:)
 
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