In context: Romans 4:4-5

Atwood · Oct 18, 2014

Interesting, isn't it, how the Campbellite heretics are much in agreement with the papist heretics on salvation, wanting to add on "baptism" to whosoever believes. But in reality the Campbellites define baptize as immerse in water, which the papists don't do. Thus though on the surface it may look like they agree, logically the Campbellites would damn the papists & Presbyterians for sprinkling.

Both may want to argue that sprinking or immersing (respectively) saves from the Ananias story in Acts, both not noting that water is not mentioned, & the baptism there may be Spirit baptism.

" But the Lord said unto him [Ananias], Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 for I will show him how many things he must suffer for my name’s sake. 17 And Ananias departed, and entered into the house; and laying his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, who appeared unto thee in the way which thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mayest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. "

But Saul/Paul was probably already saved. Note that he was already chosen. How does that square with you free-willers? And he already must suffer for Christ's name sake. So you think he wasn't already saved at that point?

These instructions are not for Paul's salvation, but for his receiving sight & being filled with the Spirit (a matter distinct from salvation). The Ephesians are commanded to be filled with the Spirit, though already saved.

2nd passage:

2 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well reported of by all the Jews that dwelt there, 13 came unto me, and standing by me said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And in that very hour I looked up on him. 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath appointed thee to know his will, and to see the Righteous One, and to hear a voice from his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be a witness for him unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16 And now why tarriest thou? Having arisen, be baptized. And wash away thy sins (by) having called on his name.

ἀναστὰς βάπτισαι.
καὶ ἀπόλουσαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας σου ἐπικαλεσάμενος τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ.

The sins are washed away only by the calling on Christ's name in faith, as in Romans 10:13: "For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
And how can they call on him in whom they have not believed?

Apparently Ananias is not prophesying here, thus it is doubtful that Ananias is uttering God's word, rather he is giving directions on how to be saved. I think Paul was already saved, but evidently Ananias did not know that. But whatever Ananias thought, the Aorist participle "having called on his name" is regularly used to indicate action prior to the main verb "wash away." If you think Ananias is prophesying (text doesn't say it), then you would postulate that Paul was not yet saved, and he was offered salvation for a call of faith as in Rom 10:13-14.

pastac · Oct 18, 2014

Careful there Atwood you used the word damn in any context you don't want to get scolded now do you! That was my attempt to make a joke based on current events.lol

mailmandan · Oct 18, 2014

kepha said:

So you admit that you inserted the word "justified" in the verse, even though it's not there.

There is a difference between receiving a blessing and being justified by faith/faith accounted for righteousness.

Again, neither Genesis 12:1-4 or Hebrews 11:8-10 say that Abraham was justified 25 years earlier. Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:2-3 is where you will find that Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness/justified by faith.

What else did Paul say that we are justified by in Romans 5:1? Did he say faith and works? No! You don't need to add the word "alone" next to faith in Romans 5:1 in order to figure out that the word faith "stands alone" in connection with "have been justified by faith." Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. This is clearly a one time event and not a process.

It's not about me trying harder. It's about you having eyes to see.

mailmandan · Oct 18, 2014

kepha said:

In post #461, you said that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works. That equates to saved by works.

Blessing and justified are two different terms. You are adding your own preconceived ideas to scripture.

Romans 4:6 - just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Crystal clear. Trying to "add works" to the equation turns this passage into mud.

The works of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but they proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. "Shown to be righteous." Self effort includes the moral aspect of the law, namely, good works. Paul didn't have to spell out the word "alone" next to faith because he did not say faith "plus something else." The word faith "stands alone" in connection with "saved through faith" and "justified by faith." He didn't say faith and works. Works salvationists can never seem to figure that out.

Believing that salvation is by works and that justification is an ongoing process remains a major stumbling block for you.

That does not prove that justification is an ongoing process at all. Sanctification is the ongoing process. Have been justified by faith is not an ongoing process. It's a past event with ongoing results, namely continue to be justified by faith.

We are not being justified over and over again day by day based on being renewed. It's not a process to receive Christ through faith. Either we are trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation or else we are not. After we receive Him through faith, we continue to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Growing is the process, not justification by faith.

Believing in Him is ongoing and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root. Because we continue to believe does not mean that justification is an ongoing event, which would mean that we are not actually justified until the end.

Obedience throughout one's life is the fruit of believing. Faith is believing and obedience which follows is WORKS. Here you have crossed the line once again into salvation by works.

So you simply define believing as obedience/works? You can't seem to make a distinction between faith and works. In John 3:36, we read - He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him (NASB). The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. This alone makes the crucial point loud and clear about disobedience being a manifestation of unbelief. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message. Obeying the Son does not mean do extra works for Him to help Him save you, but obey by choosing to believe in Him. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To believe on the Son is to obey Him and to disbelieve the Son is to disobey Him. This does not equate to salvation by works, as you make it out to be.

More works salvation. Abraham was not further justified/accounted as righteous. This was a one time event back in Genesis 15:6 with ongoing results. In James 2:21, James' works proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the sense in which he was justified by works. Not further justified/accounted as righteous or saved by works. Those verses prove nothing about justification being an ongoing process to be saved by works.

None of these verses mention anything about David being further justified or losing justification. This argument is based on your preconceived theology that salvation is by works and is also maintained by works. In contrast, Romans 4:6 says - just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

None of these verses say that David is "re-justified." Show me the words "lose justification" in the Bible.

Even though Peter had a weak moment when he denied Christ three times, his faith ultimately did not fail. Peter was not justified over and over again.

Where do these verses say that Peter "loses his justification" before God?

I'm still looking for the words "was justified, loses his justification, and regains it again."

The NASB reads: But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found. Not the same message. The ESV reads: It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found. This passage does not say that he was saved, lost his salvation and was saved again. What does this have to do with how we are saved in the first place? You are getting off track.

"Protestants, church has taught for 2,000 years" has Roman Catholic written all over it. Here we go with water baptism salvation. Was Paul an infant when he was baptized as the Roman Catholic church baptizes infants? Works salvation, guilty as charged. In regards to Acts 22:16, Greek Scholar A.T. Robertson explains: As in Romans 6:4-6 where baptism is the picture of death, burial and resurrection, so here baptism pictures the change that had already taken place when Paul surrendered to Jesus on the way (verse Acts 9). Baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Our sins are already literally washed away by the blood of Christ after we BELIEVE before water baptism (Romans 3:24-26; Acts 10:43-47). Therefore to take Paul's statement in Acts 22:16 as anything more than a metaphor is to confuse the symbolic rite with what the rite represents. The first question that must be answered is "when was Paul saved?" Paul tells that he did not receive or hear the Gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ. Galatians 1:11-12 says, "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." Paul had repented (Acts 9:6). "Lord, what will you have me to do?" Repentance means a "change of mind," and is wrought by the grace of God. Paul once persecuted the Lord (Acts 9:5), but is now ready to serve Him demonstrating the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20). Paul had believed. He had Christ as his Lord (Acts 9:6). The Bible tells us that "no man can say that Jesus is Lord except "by" the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). Paul had, by the work of the Holy Spirit, submitted to Christ as Lord. All of these things characterized Paul before he was baptized. So, Paul heard and believed in Christ on the road to Damascus. Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his water baptism. It is also interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was not saved. The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, properly translated means "having called" on the name of the Lord. Paul’s calling on Christ's name for salvation preceded his water baptism. It is absurd to think that Paul had not yet called upon the name of the Lord and that water baptism is all the same as calling on the name of the Lord. This "washing away of sin" in water baptism was only "formal" or symbolic. Hearts are purified by faith, not by H20 (Acts 15:9).

Yes, but we still have critical major disagreements.

kepha · Oct 18, 2014

Atwood said:

I was talking about justification. You are derailing by bringing up salvation.

It says that? Really? Again, it's the beginning. Heb. 11:6 - faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. If you want to discuss salvation, fine by me.

That is not a good example because the ride owner/operator owes the ticket holder a ride. It's a system of debt.
Rom. 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).

Yes, they do.

Yup. Abe was justified more than once, thank you for affirming my point.

You can't see because you put a wall up between the two.
Look up Romans 6:7. All standard English translations render this verse as some variation on the statement, "He who has died has been freed from sin." The topic here is one of sanctification, the making the believer holy, or freeing him from sin.
What is significant about Romans 6:7 is that when it says the one who has died has been freed from sin, the word for freed is actually the Greek word for justified. What it literally says is, "He who has died has been justified from sin," yet the context is so obviously sanctificational that all standard English translations of the Bible rendered "justified from sin" as "freed from sin." This shows that for Paul there was not a rigid wall between justification and sanctification. The meanings of the two terms overlap in his mind.

I am not the one arguing that Abram was not justified in Gen. 12 because the word doesn't appear.

Really? You are an anti-Protestant Protestant?. I would agree that post-Protestant cults have severely deviated, but I have met many good Christian Protestants that don't deny the Bible, the Trinity, and salvation by faith. Neither do Catholics. To make your outrageous claim stick, you have to prove your interpretation of the Bible is infallible, which you cannot do. Is the Westborough Baptist Church independent like yours?

I know of no Protestant, or Catholic, that believes such idiocy. Maybe you weren't listening.

Tell ya what. You don't insult me with "papist", "Romanist" "Mary worshipper" "statue worshipper" and I won't insult you with "Bible worshipper".

It's very hard to find common ground, not knowing which of the 40,000 or so denominations I am discussing with. Since few posters in here will name their church, or give a web site to their churches doctrines, I have no choice but to generalize. I'm guessing Protestants won't identify their spiritual heritage (if they have one) out of fear of being attacked.

St. Patrick, the bishop of Ireland, didn't acknowledge the papacy? That's so funny I almost fell off my chair.

Trail of Blood: Baptist Successionism :good article, it quotes Baptist history professors.

1) "Accepting Christ as Savior" is not Bible language. The Bible says believe and be saved (with nothing else tacked on, but works excluded as in Ephesians 2.

I don't know how many times I have to post this. "works" in Ephesians 2 means "works of the law", the Greek is "ergon nomou". James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God. But "faith alone" fans constantly juggle, mix-match, erroneously using the two DIFFERENT terms interchangeably to force fit scripture into a man made system.

James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Deal with it.

Much of what you say is true, but let's not confuse initial justification with ongoing justification. Both are in the Bible.

The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" was invented by John Calvin during the Reformation. Under this theory, the Protestant (or whatever they want to call themselves) believes that one is saved when he accepts Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. This is comforting - after all, who wouldn't want assurance? According to this view, true Christians are the ones who will persevere to the end. For those who accepted Christ during their lives but did not persevere to the end, the doctrine calls these people superficial Christians. So true Christians will go to heaven and superficial Christians will not. Not only is this teaching not Scriptural, it is difficult to accept the teaching on reason.
The only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian did not persevere to the end. Otherwise, the two types of Christians appear to be the same. The superficial Christian has all the earmarks of a true Christian except that he did not persevere. But this necessarily means that the true Christian cannot know that he really is a true Christian either until the end of his life. He, too, won't know whether his conversion was genuine until the end of his life. Therefore, despite all the talk about assurance, he cannot be sure.

This doctrine, therefore, actually gives its adherents less assurance of their salvation. It necessarily imposes upon them uncertainty until the end. The Catholic (and Scriptural) view, however, does give assurance to the believer that he is in fact currently saved (a true Christian), and that, if he perseveres to the end, he will be saved at death. We also know that God will give all the graces necessary for us to be faithful to the end (because of our freewill, the question is always whether we will accept the grace or not). Thus, Catholics know that it is theirs to lose. Protestant Calvinists (or whatever they wish to call themselves) don't even know whether it is theirs to begin with.

I don't know how you can rebel against the reformers, and at the same time accept Calvin's inventions.

Atwood · Oct 18, 2014

kepha said:

I thought you were speaking of salvation. The 2 concepts overlap, but are different. Salvation includes an instant transformation from sinner to child of God with the promise of eternal life; but it has 3 tenses.

Justification is the declaration of righteousness. This occurs at the point of salvation, as with ABe who believed God (without good works) & was justified by faith. But it also occurs when a saved child of God does a good work, as when Abe offered up Isaac. Justification is not a process like sanctification; it is a declaration. As scripture says, "And all the people when they heard, and the publicans, justified God." The people declared that God was just or righteous (they didn't make Him righteous, and no process was involved, as it was a declaration.

You seem to confuse justification with sanctification.

Yes, it is a good example. Something is offered to whosoever does X; then when time to collect, Y is added on. This is breaking a promise. The promise is to whosoever believes, everyone who believes, all who believe. Thus nothing essential can be added to the conditions for receipt of the promise.

I have studied Romans 6 intensively, having looked at commentaries of every persuasion possible. The topic is the Christian life & sanctification. But it depends upon connection to Christ into whom Christians are united in a mystical union. Christ only died once, but the effect of his life in the life of a Christian can come & go, depending on the believer's faith. Death is an event. As it says in Gal 2:20 " 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. 21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.

If you are not debating salvation here, I don't know that there is any profit in debating sanctification with you. Paul is not easy to interpret in Romans 5-8, not that he is impossible.

If you do not trust Christ as your only & sufficient Savior, but worship Mary, saints, water, and bread, I don't think you are likely to understand sanctification until you get saved.

I realize that you are so used to regarding nonpapists as "protestants" that it is going to be hard to dissuade you from that POV, but it is a false POV. My POV is found in John Carroll's Trail of Blood, available on the internet, which you can read if you care to learn another POV. V Raymond Edmon's Light in Dark Ages, may or may not be free on the internet. It is cheap, methinks, as a used book -- it would probably be considered the more scholarly view, written by a man who was a college president.

I grew up in a protestant denomination. The modernist vs fundamentalist controversy post WWI resulted in Bible-believers being chased out of protestant denominations in many cases. The World Council of Churches is hardly an adherent of the Nicene Creed. So Protestantism is a very mixed bag of belief & modernist unbelief. As a preacher in my old denomination told me, "Yes, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God; and also you and I are sons of God."

Protestantism is largely apostate. I think among the papists there are also apostates, though by & large the official position has a lot of truth and adherence to basic beliefs like the Trinity.

"Yours"? There is only 1 Church, not any yours and mine. There is one true catholic (not papist) Church, the Body of Christ in which everyone truly trusts the Lord Jesus has been place by the baptism of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13).

" not knowing which of the 40,000 or so denominations I am discussing with."

You are not discussing with a denomination, but with a child of God, one who trusts the Lord Jesus as only & sufficient Savior, a member of the catholic church, the Body of Christ -- but not a member of any Roman sect.

"Since few posters in here will name their church,"

There is but one universal Church. The Bible never uses "church" for any denomination.

So you can kindly stop going on about Protestants. Argue from the Bible if you want to prove anything to me.

Let's see your proof that St Pat came under the pope.

I follow that basic POV, but not that the Trail of Blood is specially connected to baptists. I have the POV that there have always been persecuted Christians, persecuted by the pope's organization, and that they didn't start with Luther nor come out of the Roman system.

Your saying it proves nothing. You can see from reading Eph 2 that works is just works. The Ephesians had no works for salvation, but faith. They had works after they were saved, not before. They were dead in trespasses before salvation. You are so busy repeating mantras that have no Bible proof that you ignore the plan statements of the word of God "NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST." Eph 2 specifically regards a gentile church, not Jews working under the law. Those guys would have eaten shell fish all their lives. But works are works. They don't save because an unsaved man has no good works, just filthy rags.

Your word "therefore" is false. If anything you would expect James to speak of works of the law by good works, as his epistle is Jewish. But not Ephesians, though both are Christian epistles. James even speaks of meeting in synagogues. So you stand the truth on its head.

Faith alone comes not from jugging scripture, but from believing plain statements repeated over and over: Whosoever believes, etc., where nothing else is added -- it is faith alone; believing alone; trusting Christ alone. Faith is presented alone, over & over. And works are excluded from the saving process. Now do you have some possible entity you could postulate for salvation which was neither faith nor works??? If it is by faith & not by works, what could you add to faith??? By grace you have been saved through faith. Faith is alone there, except for God's work -- He does the work.

Absolutely false. the doctrine is taught over & over in the Bible.

I give them eternal life & they shall never perish.
Thou shalt all His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
He who began a good work in you will complete.
Jesus Christ, the author & completer of our faith.

Now, to any who deny that Christ is the SAvior, and reduce Him to a mere chance-giver, I urge them to repent, and trust their destiny to the one who paid for their sins on the cross.

Atwood · Oct 18, 2014

kepha said:

The doctrine is better termed, ONCE SAVED, SAVED. That is the outrageous idea that when the Lord Jesus saves someone, that person is in fact saved, not just given a chance at it. God invented the doctrine long ago, & it is in the Bible:

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Luke 21:31-32
Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you*, that he might sift you* as wheat: but I made supplication for you, that your faith fail not; and do you, when once you have turned again, establish your brethren.

Rom 4:16

For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God who justifies;
who is he who condemns?
It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

2 thes 2:16-17
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

Luke 21:31-32
Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you*, that he might sift you* as wheat: but I made supplication for you, that your faith fail not; and do you, when once you have turned again, establish your brethren.

Rom 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, . . .

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 11:29
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Ephesians 1:1-23
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
For He shall save His people from their sins.

Atwood · Oct 18, 2014

kepha said:

Faith alone saves over & over, and works are specifically excluded. Whosoever believes, everyone who who believes, all who believe imply faith alone is required. If one reads 1000 X in scripture passages where faith alone saves, one must conclude that faith alone saves.

Here is a sample:

1 Pet 3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Atwood · Oct 18, 2014

Posted for the benefit of those who call themselves Roman Catholics:

Attributed to St Anselm,
Apparently An Instruction for the Dying:

Q Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee?
A I believe it.

Q Dost thou thank him for his passion and death?
A I do thank him.

Q Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death?
A I believe it.

Come then, while life remaineth in thee: in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust; to his death commit thyself wholly, with this alone cover thyself wholly; and

if the Lord thy God will to judge thee,
say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’

And if he shall say that thou art a sinner,
say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee.

'If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation,
say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’

If he say that he is wroth with thee,
say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me.

‘And when thou hast completed this,
say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’

attributed to Anselm of Canterbury (c. 1033-1109)

And as it is Saturday Night, let us sing:

My faith has found a resting place;
Not in device or creed;
I trust The Everliving One;
His wounds for me shall plead.

I need no other argument;
I need no other plea;
It is enough that Jesus died;
& that He died for me.

kepha · Oct 19, 2014

Atwood said:

Faith alone saves over & over, and works are specifically excluded. Whosoever believes, everyone who who believes, all who believe imply faith alone is required. If one reads 1000 X in scripture passages where faith alone saves, one must conclude that faith alone saves.

Here is a sample:

1 Pet 3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

None of these verses say "faith alone".

kepha · Oct 19, 2014

Atwood said:

Posted for the benefit of those who call themselves Roman Catholics:

Attributed to St Anselm,
Apparently An Instruction for the Dying:

Q Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee?
A I believe it.

Q Dost thou thank him for his passion and death?
A I do thank him.

Q Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death?
A I believe it.

Come then, while life remaineth in thee: in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust; to his death commit thyself wholly, with this alone cover thyself wholly; and

if the Lord thy God will to judge thee,
say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’

And if he shall say that thou art a sinner,
say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee.

'If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation,
say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’

If he say that he is wroth with thee,
say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me.

‘And when thou hast completed this,
say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’

attributed to Anselm of Canterbury (c. 1033-1109)

And as it is Saturday Night, let us sing:

My faith has found a resting place;
Not in device or creed;
I trust The Everliving One;
His wounds for me shall plead.

I need no other argument;
I need no other plea;
It is enough that Jesus died;
& that He died for me.

That's nice. But it doesn't support "faith alone".

kepha · Oct 19, 2014

Atwood said:

No, it isn't. There is no evidence that this doctrine existed before John Calvin, who invented it. What you are telling me is that for 1600 years, there wasn't anyone smart enough to see it.

This verse demolishes your ONCE SAVED, SAVED theory. "began a good work" and "will bring it to completion" clearly shows a process, not a one time event.

Yea, Jesus prayed that Peter's faith "fail not", but ant-Catholics are constantly harping about Peter's failures, as if Jesus' prayer went unanswered. Why Peter and not one of the other Apostles to "establish your brethren"?

None of these verses say "faith alone".

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill).

Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.
Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.

Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

Maybe you should study Romans some more.

SeaBass · Oct 19, 2014

Rom 4:5 God justifieth the ungodly
Ex 23:7 God will not justify the wicked

Contradiction?

SeaBass · Oct 19, 2014

Jackson123 said:

So my question remains unanswered: Per Eph 2:10 - Can one who becomes a Christian today NEVER do any good works yet still be saved anyway ?

(It appears you are looking for ways to get around answering a simple question)

SeaBass · Oct 19, 2014

Jackson123 said:

When Jesus was on earth He was given the power/authority to forgive sins.

SeaBass · Oct 19, 2014

mailmandan said:

AT Robertson was right on and you have allowed your theological bias to get in the way of harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching the proper conclusion. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and under the New Covenant, brings the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:3; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). *Perfect Harmony* Are you going to continue to ignore Matthew 3:11? "I baptize you with water for (eis) "in order to obtain" repentance or "in reference to/in regards to" repentance? Does baptism obtain repentance? If you can believe that then you can believe anything!

Words in scripture do not all get a broad brushed application in every verse. For (eis) can look forward or backwards, depending on the context. Robertson knows that scripture must harmonize with scripture or else we have a contradiction in scripture. Your "sins remitted in H20/dipped or condemned" theology negates many passages of scripture.

Like I already said, By refusing baptism, the Pharisees and lawyers demonstrated that they rejected John's call to repentance (which is the means of having their sins remitted, which is signified in baptism, which demonstrates that they rejected God Himself). Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (SIGNIFIED BY) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (SIGNIFIED BY) not having been baptized by John. Plain and simple.

That's all you have? A remote possibility? It's also a remote possibility that Hitler repented just before he died too, right? You continue to grasp for straws.

Being crucified as a thief, mocking, blaspheming and shaking his head at Jesus is much more than an assumption. That's no disciple of Jesus! But later he repented and believed.

Don't forget verse 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. It's no surprise that they left.

The thief was saved through faith/believing in Him before the cross (Luke 9:50; John 3:18) and we are saved through faith/believing in Him after the cross (Ephesians 2:8; Acts 10:43). Quit trying to make it complicated.

Smoke screen to discredit the thief being saved through faith apart from water baptism. Quit fighting the truth and BELIEVE.

Do I need to share this with you again? Pay attention this time:

Repentance actually precedes saving belief in Christ. Through poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you reverse the order of repentance and faith in receiving salvation. To the contrary we find: Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel (not believe the gospel then afterwards repent). Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

In Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust exclusively in Him for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust exclusively in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

Again, in Mark 16:16, He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. Continue to meditate on Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 15:8-9.

If he who believes in Him will be saved (John 3:16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 10:43; 13:39; 16:31) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well. Show me just ONE verse in the Bible that says he who is not baptized will be condemned. We find this with repentance (Luke 13:3) and belief (John 3:18) so why not baptism? hhmmm...

Yet unbelievers still get water baptized in various cults and false religions. They are unqualified to be baptized, but they do it anyway, because they trust in the baptism rather than the Savior.

False. Unbelievers get water baptized all the time in false religions that call themselves Christian. Your faulty human logic misses the mark.

AT Robinson was wrong. "Eis" in the Greek has one meaning - to look forward, to obtain. There is a completely different word for "because" in the Greek.
AT Robinson could not explain away the theological impossibilities in Mt 26:28 or 1 Tim 1:16 if one tries to change the meaning of 'eis' to "because"

------------------------------

You cannot give a reason as to why an unbelieving atheist would repent.

-----------------------------

Not a single verse avows the thief was never a disciple, therefore all antone can do is can do is give their assumptions about it

-----------------------------

Mk 16:16 the conjunction "and: ties belief with baptism making them grammatically inseparable meaning if one can be saved without baptism he can be saved without believing also.

SeaBass · Oct 19, 2014

mailmandan said:

You have it backwards. One CANNOT do good works without being a Christian. Faith - root of salvation; good works - fruit of salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-10 - Saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works.
John 14:15 - one CANNOT produce obedient works without love for Christ. You continue to put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.

Paul was ruling out works that you are "adding" to salvation through faith. Paul said not saved by works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works. ALL WORKS or else there is a contradiction. Paul said believes on Him/his faith is accounted for righteousness, NOT HIS WORKS. Where did Paul "add works" to believes on Him/faith is accounted for righteousness? It's you who "adds works" to the gospel of grace.

Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning, but Noah was already spiritually saved. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark, so your argument is moot. You are trying so hard to "add works" to salvation through faith and claim no credit for the believer, yet your argument is bogus.

Again, Paul was ruling out works/obedient works/good works/works of righteousness which we have done/our works. When are you going to let go of your works and take hold of Christ through FAITH? Human pride is the enemy!

Eph 2:10 God before ordained Christians walk in good works. The implication is that one who becomes a Christian MUST do good works else he was never converted to being a Christian. Since God before ordained a Christian walk in good works then Paul cannot eliminate works God foreordained in Rom 4:4,6.

SeaBass · Oct 19, 2014

Calminian said:

James said a man is justified by works James 2
Paul is saying a man is not justified by works, Rom 4

Since the bible does not contradict itself and from the contexts of James 2 and Rom 4 it is clearly evident that James and Paul are not talking about the same kind of works, if they are then they are contradicting each other. But in Rom 4:4,5 Paul is talking about works of merit that do not justify whereas James is talking about obedient works (as Abraham did) that do justify.

James point is you cannot prove you have faith without works. It is the works that proves one has faith. So the implication is:
no works = proof one does NOT have faith.

Both Abraham and Rahab were justified before God for it was God Who justified them due to their obedient works.

mailmandan · Oct 19, 2014

SeaBass said:

False. The popular text, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, by H.E. Dana and J.R. Mantey, classifies "eis" in five of eight categories in a chart entitled, "Prepositional Meanings Classified." Here are the categories and meanings as pertaining to "eis."

Direction: into, unto, to
Position: in, among, upon
Relation: as, for, against, in respect to
Cause: because of
Purpose: for the purpose of

In Liddell & Scott, Greek-English Lexicon, the standard lexicon for classical Greek, we find the following uses of the word:
Of place ("into," "to," less commonly "before," "upon," "for")
Of time ("up to," "until," "near," "for," "with")
To express measure or limit ("as far as," "as much as," "so far as," "about," "by")
To express relation ("towards," "in regard to")

Of an end or limit, including the idea of purpose or object ("in," "into," "for," "to the purpose")
In Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, the standard lexicon for Biblical Greek and early Christian writings, we find the following meanings of the word:

Of place ("into," "in," "toward," "to," "among," "near," "to," "on," "toward")
Of time ("to," "until," "for," "on," "in," "for," "throughout")
To indicate degree ("to," "completely," "fully")
To indicate the goal, including to show the result or purpose ("unto," "to," "against," "in," "for," "into," "to," "so that," "in order to," "for")
To denote reference to a person or thing ("for," "to," "with respect" or "reference to")

That "eis" has different meanings simply establishes the fact that your church cannot be so dogmatic as to build a theological structure upon one of the word's possible meanings. A doctrine, such as baptismal remission, necessitating that a person be immersed or perish in eternal destruction, should certainly have more confirmation than the fact that one of the possible meanings of "eis" is "in order to."

Do you believe that in Matthew 3:11, "I baptize you with water for (eis) repentance" means for "in order to obtain" repentance or will you be honest and admit that for "with reference to" repentance here is as good a translation here as is possible, as AT Robertson correctly point out.

Did you not read the testimony of Lee Strobel who was a former unbelieving atheist? God is incapable of reaching an atheist? Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God "except for the atheist?" It's impossible for an atheist to be convicted by the word of God and repent? Is that what you are implying?

Not a single verse ever hints that the thief was a disciple. To the contrary, the thief is being crucified as a thief, he mocks, blasphemes and shakes his head at Jesus ALONG WITH THE CHIEFS PRIESTS, SCRIBES AND ELDERS. Certainly not the fruit of being a disciple of Jesus. All you have are assumptions.

False. Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned." Obviously, one could be baptized every day of his life; but if one does not truly believe, he or she will not be saved: hence, the determining factor between heaven and hell is not water baptism but believes, which is in harmony with John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? NO!) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

SeaBass · Oct 19, 2014

mailmandan said:

Mt 26:28 Christ did not shed His blood BECAUSE sin was already remitted is not possible

1 Tim 1:16 "for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to(eis) life everlasting.

One believes BECAUSE he ALREADY has everlasting life? Impossible.

Because some as Roberson and Mantey are willing to sacrifice scholarship for their Baptist theological bias does not change the facts eis means looking forward, to obtain. They flip flop on the meaning and change the meaning of eis when they need to as in the two verses above. They understand the impossibilities of making eis mean because in the above two verse so they conveniently change the meaning of eis as their theology (not scholarship) dictates to them.

A.T. Robertson, the premier Baptist grammarian, argued this case in his famous work, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville: Broadman, 1930, III, 35-36). In addition, J.R. Mantey contended for the “causal” sense of eis in Acts 2:38, though he classified that use of the preposition as a “remote meaning.” His discussion clearly indicated, however, that he yielded to that view because of his conviction that, if baptism was “for the purpose of the remission of sins,” then salvation would be of works, and not by faith (a false conclusion) (see: H.E. Dana & J.R. Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, New York: Macmillan, 1955, 103-04). Those of the Baptist persuasion constantly appeal to Robertson and Mantey as authorities on this matter.

It has been a matter of long-standing knowledge, however, that the standard Greek lexicons do not define eis as “because of” with reference to Acts 2:38. J.H. Thayer, for instance, translated the term as follows, citing Acts 2:38 — “eis aphesin hamartion, to obtain the forgiveness of sins” (Greek-English Lexicon, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, 94). Wm. Arndt and F.W. Gingrich, in a section where eis is defined as expressing “purpose,” with the sense of “in order to,” rendered the same phrase: “for forgiveness of sins, so that sins might be forgiven . . . Acts 2:38:” (Greek-English Lexicon, Chicago: University of Chicago, 1967, 228).

Elliger states that eis, in Acts 2:38, is designed “to indicate purpose” (Horst Balz & Gerhard Schneider, Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1990, Vol. 1, 399). In his discussion of Acts 2:38, Ceslas Spicq noted: “Water baptism is a means of realizing this conversion, and its goal — something altogether new — is a washing, ‘the remission of sins’” (Theological Lexicon of the New Testament, Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1994, Vol. 1, 242). It is hardly necessary to pile up additional testimony.

That brings me to this point. In 1996, Dr. Daniel B. Wallace, an associate professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary, published his new book, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics (Grand Rapids: Zondervan). It is a scholarly volume of more than 800 pages. In his discussion of eis, Wallace lists five uses of the preposition, and among them “causal” is conspicuously missing!

Prof. Wallace explains the absence. He says that an “interesting discussion over the force of eis took place several years ago, especially in relation to Acts 2:38.” He references the position of J.R. Mantey, that “eis could be used causally” in this passage. Wallace mentions that Mantey was taken to task by another scholar, Ralph Marcus (Marcus, Journal of Biblical Literature, 70 [SUP]1952[/SUP] 129-30; 71 [SUP]1953[/SUP] 44). These two men engaged in what Dr. Wallace called a “blow-by-blow” encounter. When the smoke had cleared, the Dallas professor concedes, “Marcus ably demonstrated that the linguistic evidence for a causal eis fell short of proof” (370).
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/395-dallas-professor-rebuffs-common-quibble-on-eis
by Wayne Jackson

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There are only a few lexicons that list a causal use of eis. By far, the majority does not give a causal use of this Greek word. Out of the 1,767 occurrences of eis in the New Testament, only four even has the remotest possibility of meaning “because of”, and those that say that eis means “because of” instead of “for” admit that such a translation is at best controversial. There is no example of causal eis in the Church Fathers. There is no example of causal eis in the Papyri of the first century, (Arndt-Gingrich: Greek, English Lexicon; pgs., 131, 229).

Then, what is the meaning of eis in Acts 2:38? Arndt-Gingrich says that eis indicates “the purpose of baptism”, pg., 131. This means that the purpose of baptism is “for”, (in order to obtain), the remission of sins, not “because of” remission of sins. It would be rightly translated, baptized, in order to have your sins forgiven. Edgar J. Goodspeed (A Baptist) in his version of the Scriptures, translated “you must repent and be baptized every one of you in order to have your sins forgiven.” When he was asked about this very un-Baptist translation, (and it certainly does not uphold the doctrine of faith only as the way of salvation), he replied, “I am first a Greek scholar, and then a theologian.” He was saying that the faith only doctrine will just have to suffer, for Acts 2:38 makes baptism essential to salvation, (Christian Standard, June, 20, 1942 P. 605 and Christian Standard, Sept., 6, 1947, pgs., 611, 624).
Pennville Church of Christ - Does "eis" Mean "For" or "Because of"?

In context: Romans 4:4-5

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