Conditional Salvation

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Mar 28, 2014
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Yeh well marriage without love is dead.
That's why there is so much divorce.

Just like the Lord cuts off the unfaithful branches!!!
exactly but you must first be married....correct?
 
Mar 28, 2014
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The very moment that we place our faith in Christ for salvation, how many good works have we accomplished one second later? It takes time to produce good works afterwards. Giving a brother or sister things needed for the body (James 2:15-16) is not accomplished in the first second after conversion. This is not what James means by faith without works is dead. He is not saying that faith is dead until works are accomplished and then faith becomes alive. Dead faith doesn't produce good works just as a dead tree doesn't produce fruit. Genuine faith in Christ that trusts exclusively in Him for salvation is not a dead empty profession of faith and is evidenced by good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). You continue to put the cart before the horse.
this is what I am asking you ...what is it you do?...genuine faith has works? ..correct....
Genuine faith in Christ that trusts exclusively in Him for salvation is not a dead empty profession of faith and is evidenced by good works
what is the evidence(work/fruit) of that genuine faith that trust exclusively in Christ?
 

Ella85

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May 9, 2014
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Both your posts on this page put tears in my eyes. Beautiful, Sis!

It is all about Love. "If you love Me .......... "

Ephesians 5:22-33 is also referring to the Church/The Bride [vs 32].

Just as any man would expect his wife to love him relationally, submit to his headship and be faithful to him ..... vs. 32 speaks of that mystery of our relationship with/to Him.

"This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."


Thank you for reminding us of the Beauty of it all!
Well thank you for your post and I agree for sure!

Love is the key word! Because when you love someone so much you will do whatever it takes to make sure you please them!
 

Ella85

Senior Member
May 9, 2014
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exactly but you must first be married....correct?
You do not have to be married to love your partner..... what part don't you get.
Without love there would be no marriage!
 
Mar 28, 2014
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My faith is not alone in the sense that it is barren of works, but my faith trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works.
the faith that you trust in Christ with ...is it without works?....I understand you have Faith in Christ alone and we all should I endorse that.......but the faith that you have in Christ is that faith without any works...alone /dead
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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Actually it's you who has the very distorted concept of salvation.

I did not understand salvation as a Catholic, but I do now as a Christian.

Man is saved by grace through faith and not by works. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). That is scripture and is not some formulated philosophical concept. 2 Corinthians 4:3 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which BELIEVE NOT, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

In regards to interpreting scripture: 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Do you believe that we are righteous "in of ourselves" or positionally in Christ? Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Do you reject IMPUTED righteousness for imparted righteousness, as Roman Catholics do? 2 Corinthians 5:21 - For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith. That is the position of BELIEVERS IN CHRIST.

Why do you think that Christ lived a sinless perfect life, died for our sins, was burial and rose again from the dead? It was to provide for us eternal life. You confuse what we are saved BY - grace through FAITH; with what we are saved FOR - good works.

Faith in Christ doesn't simply make union with Him and salvation possible, it makes it actual.

This is what we are saved FOR and not by. We could never be sufficient enough servants or do enough good works to earn our salvation. That's why salvation is by grace through faith and not works.

It shows me he never had genuine faith but a temporary shallow belief that has no root.



We have been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8). We are not still in a process of becoming saved through faith, but believers are in a process of ongoing Sanctification (which unbelievers often mix up with Justification) by which we are being saved from the power of sin. Believers have been saved from the penalty of sin.

Faith IN CHRIST alone for salvation is not meaningless because He alone is the all sufficient means of our salvation and the Object of our faith in receiving salvation. Faith that claims to be genuine yet remains alone (barren of works) is meaningless because this is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. Works show that our faith is genuine and that is the sense in which we are justified by works. Not saved by works, but shown to be righteous.



I agree. Like I've said many times before. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root.

No contradiction. John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. This loving, obedient relationship is what we are saved FOR and not by. We don't even begin this loving, obedient relationship with Him until we are saved.



So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were faithful "enough"? How much is enough? See your confusion? That's not salvation through faith in Christ but salvation BY WORKS! It's no wonder you have no security.

If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Your answer will demonstrate exactly what you are trusting in for salvation.

Works are the demonstrative evidence of our faith, but not the means of salvation. 1 Corinthians 1:8 - He will confirm/keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Christ is all the security that I need. Your security rests in your performance so of course there is no guarantee for you.

I'm not talking about becoming exactly like God. We will reach entire sanctification in eternity and receive our glorified bodies. We will then be saved from the presence of sin.



I'm not worried about babes in Christ. They are saved, but you keep saying that salvation is based on our performance so I asked you that question about babes in Christ, but you didn't bother to answer it. So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were faithful ENOUGH? Is that salvation through faith in Christ or salvation based on your performance/works?

No misconception at all. That is your implication. What obligations are there for us to accomplish in order to become saved after we have been saved through faith? Believers are committed to Christ and all believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). No man can lay any other foundation which is Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 3:11).

No misconception and I didn't contradict anything. Which explanation? Your explanations equate to salvation based on man's performance/works and not faith in Christ. Your faith is in works.

True, yet we are still saved through faith and not by works.


You cannot demonstrate that you believe/have faith without works.

Created FOR good works, not saved by good works. Without faith, one is not in the Body of Christ to begin with.

False. That is the usual response from works salvationists in order to get around the truth found there. Verse 13 says each one's work and verse 14 says if anyone's work and not simply teachers. We must ALL stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ (including pew believers and not simply Pastors and teachers. Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

There are multiple crowns mentioned in scripture. So you are saying that eternal life/salvation is a "reward" and is "not a gift?" in contradiction to Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8. The Greek word for "reward" is misthós Strong's #3408 (a primitive word, so NAS dictionary) – a reward (recompense) that appropriately compensates a particular decision (action).

reward, wages.
Apparently a primary word; pay for service (literally or figuratively), good or bad -- hire, reward, wages. Now to him who works the wages are not counted as grace but as debt (Romans 4:4). 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. So much for salvation by works or working for and earning salvation as a reward.



Rewards "in addition to receiving eternal life" are Biblical, as we have seen in Matthew 16:27 and 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 yet this truth found in scripture on rewards does not accommodate your works based false gospel of receiving eternal life as a reward "based on your performance" (wages earned) instead of through faith in Christ, so you reject the truth. It sounds to me like you are deeply indoctrinated into the theology of your church and are unable to see anything beyond your indoctrination.
Nothing here that is substantive to the Gospel once given in the beginning. You have given a good personal understanding/acceptance of many man made ideas that were formulated since the Reformation.

saved by faith alone is primary. Nothing in scripture ever hints that one is saved by faith alone as understood and developed by Luther and most Protestants have adopted.

You also misunderstand the meaning of "justification by faith". It does not mean salvation.
You also do not understand the difference of what Christ accomplished for the world, versus the reason why He did it and then man's response.

This is born out also why you think there are "rewards" for works. You have a misconception that since a person is saved upon initial faith and works immaterial, that the works are for rewards. Yet, all the citings of rewards is directed toward attaining eternal life. You still do not understand the context of I Cor 3:15 either.

As most Protestants have done for 500 years they will continue to go in circles on the issue of grace, faith and works. You are a prime example in your discussion with Seabass. The best you have is your opinion which is based on other men's opinion and personal interpretation of a Book. It should be quite obvious that sola scriptura has not worked as it has generated opinions of hundreds of men all called scriptural. Yet the Holy Spirit says there is ONLY one Gospel. Also that the Gospel will be preserved by the Holy Spirit from the beginning. You have a long way to go to align with that original gospel that was given in the beginning.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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You do not have to be married to love your partner..... what part don't you get.
Without love there would be no marriage!
you can have love and still not be married...
without marriage you have no partner.....you can have love but it is in marriage you become partners....
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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Marriages fail because one or more of the spouses fail to love the Lord. We become lovers of self more than lovers of the Lord.

The Lord does not cut off individual believers. The Lord prunes the branches that they bear fruit but the Lord does not cut off any that are in the vine. Those that are cast forth and burned were not abiding in the vine meaning they were not in the vine. John 15. They were tares growing alongside the branches but were not branches of the vine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You cannot even follow an analogy correctly. Obviously by your statement a divorce would mean that there never was a marriage. Your statement shows the fallacy of faith only or instant permanent salvation.
How does one cut a branch off if it was not ever attached?
 
Oct 24, 2014
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Are you married?

When you do something for your wife do you do it because you love her?
That is true love when you can both look at the partnership and say - this relationship is built on complete love and DEDICATION.

Not by buying her expensive gifts but looking after her in other ways etc..
Very nice Ella :)

That is exactly what the Gospel is all about when our Husband Jesus loves us and we love Him.

The things the Husband and Wife do for each other aren't "have to do" things. They are things done out of Love. They perform for each other without thinking, so to speak, and not for later "benefits" or "rewards" earned. This kind of Love will, as a result, show all sorts of incidental examples of evidence of "Faithfulness" every single day.

No marriage will be successful without the full free will desire and Love each gives freely to the other.
A earthly marriage where one party isn't freely giving, but motivated for personal advantage somehow, will fail.

The same when we married Jesus. If we did it for personal gain instead of personal "relationship" in desirous Love, that marriage will fail. People who do that have "spotted" unwashed garments in which they attempted to show up to the wedding in, and such as they are cast out. Mt 22:11-

Very good insight sister :)
 
Oct 24, 2014
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From "John 15" as you gave it .... How do we "abide"?

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Just as He was saying in chpt 14 as well [as elsewhere, through out the entire Bible]

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

etc.
Good thing that Love in Fidelity, IS the New Marriage Covenant commandment :) Otherwise it would be impossible. A marriage with Christ can only be base in LOVE. That's what it is for me, I am so madly in Love with Jesus! All the rest of the stuff like "works" just happen as the Holy Spirit of my Husband moves as He sees fit :)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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so then King david, and saul of tarsus should have been killed according to the law. Thanks for letting me know that. I see where you are coming from, I must ask though, are you sinless? you keep throwing alot of stones. even the pharisees stopped throwing stones when confronted with their own sin..
No doubt and beginning with the oldest they left one by one as NOT ONE OF THEM WAS WITHOUT SIN......amazing how many (sinless) hypocrites there are in the world who will be the first to pick up a stone and cast it at the sinful adulterous woman......! I would lay ODDS that the dude she was sleeping with was in the crowd.....!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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From "John 15" as you gave it .... How do we "abide"?

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Just as He was saying in chpt 14 as well [as elsewhere, through out the entire Bible]

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

etc.
We abide by grace for by grace are you saved not by works.

Works are for obedience but the works are the result of the Holy Spirit working in you. As a branch we do not produce fruit that is the function of the vine but we bear the fruit.

A branch that does not bear fruit is chastened to bear fruit. Any good vinedresser knows that too many leaves result in nothing but show. A lot of folks claim to know Christ but they have more leaves than fruit. Tares are all leaves and no fruit.

Obedience is a natural result of abiding in the vine. Tares exhibit no obedience and they bear no fruit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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You cannot even follow an analogy correctly. Obviously by your statement a divorce would mean that there never was a marriage. Your statement shows the fallacy of faith only or instant permanent salvation.
How does one cut a branch off if it was not ever attached?
There is no cutting off in John 15. Those that are cast forth and burned are not in the vine. You are confusing Romans 11 with John 15 and they deal with different subjects.

The writing of divorcement does not change the covenant of marriage. Divorce does not give liberty to re marry.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Sep 30, 2014
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You do not have to be married to love your partner..... what part don't you get.
Without love there would be no marriage!
It is out of love we fear Him, I recognize He's wiser then me, understands better then me, if I screw up He will discipline me. Jesus will also teach me, watch over me, because He loves me.. We have to know we are wrong to be disciplined, if anyone lived a life like me, I know the lines got blurry by watching everyone else, and not the truth of God.. I'm in a strong bonded relationship with Jesus, marriage is metaphoric, where you can also blur the lines.. I see women like this, " their married to Jesus", that's fine in all, but your real husbands can't discipline like Jesus can, He knows all more like a Father.. Why He said to pray Our Father, not the Our Husband... That's the proper perception of respect, that you won't have for a husband. He's not our equal in marriage, but the head, came before, and will leave after us..
 
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ChristIsGod

Guest
We abide by grace for by grace are you saved not by works.

Works are for obedience but the works are the result of the Holy Spirit working in you. As a branch we do not produce fruit that is the function of the vine but we bear the fruit.

A branch that does not bear fruit is chastened to bear fruit. Any good vinedresser knows that too many leaves result in nothing but show. A lot of folks claim to know Christ but they have more leaves than fruit. Tares are all leaves and no fruit.

Obedience is a natural result of abiding in the vine. Tares exhibit no obedience and they bear no fruit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Too many "IF you"s in the Bible - both N.T. and Old that don't agree with you.

We're not robots and we should know the WHOLE New Testament and not just a verse here & there.

We are saved by Grace through faith alone - but Jesus is The Word of GOD and not to be cut into small pieces.

That is what causes all of the divisions and differing views amongst Christians and so-called christians.

The nature, character and requirements of our abiding in Him are from cover to cover in our N.T..

All Christian Forums are the same in only one respect .... that men are followers of men and do not go off alone like Paul did with just what Scripture he had and the Spirit of Christ/Truth that was in him to learn all that he wrote.

We're not robots and there are things that are required of us by Christ/God. We're not robots. We have a freewill.
If we read His Word and it's says, "don't do something" we have the choice of whether we'll obey or not.
GOD never took away freewill.

Obedience does not come "natural" to us. The Holy Spirit can at times prompt so many times and not be listened to that the person becomes calloused in that one specific area ... whether it be something doctrinal or regarding what we're not doing that He is asking us to - like how we treat each other or if we're being a witness to the whole world, or how we're using our time and money - etc.

Our biggest sin is not getting alone with Him and just His Word, and cutting The Word of God into just the few words that suits our fancy as well.

Scripture Never cancels-out Scripture.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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There is no cutting off in John 15. Those that are cast forth and burned are not in the vine. You are confusing Romans 11 with John 15 and they deal with different subjects.

The writing of divorcement does not change the covenant of marriage. Divorce does not give liberty to re marry.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Same ole blinders. You lift a text you need to prove a point and it is contrary to your view. Both contexts are precisely about the very same thing, and both state that if one does not bear fruit, is not faithful, it will be cut off. Which is why your view is false and quite unscriptural.
 
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elf3

Guest
All I can comment anymore is just...wow!

I guess I'll make a list of "good works" for the day so I can add to the list of things I have done.

Oh wait never mind I don't have to work to do "good works" because it's not a "to do" list....well unless you think they save you.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Marriages fail because one or more of the spouses fail to love the Lord. We become lovers of self more than lovers of the Lord.

The Lord does not cut off individual believers. The Lord prunes the branches that they bear fruit but the Lord does not cut off any that are in the vine. Those that are cast forth and burned were not abiding in the vine meaning they were not in the vine. John 15. They were tares growing alongside the branches but were not branches of the vine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
There are a lot of reasons that marriages fail besides one or more spouses do not love the Lord. From my experience and observation it is usually a little more complicated than that.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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you have it backwards, salvation must come first. One not born of the spirit can do not good. there are non righteous, no not one, the things of God are foolishness to those who are not his (born again) it is impossible to do good unless you are first saved.

Rom 6:16-18 puts obedience BEFORE salvation. No one can be saved while they continue to do unrighteousness....

1 Jn 3:10 whosoever continues in NOT doing righteous continues to NOT be of God.......

One must first do righteousness in order for God to reckon him righteous. Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."



Cornelius is an example of one who did good but not saved, Acts 10:22
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
All I can comment anymore is just...wow!

I guess I'll make a list of "good works" for the day so I can add to the list of things I have done.

Oh wait never mind I don't have to work to do "good works" because it's not a "to do" list....well unless you think they save you.
thats what makes them carnal works. And why these people will never get it.

They may appear to be spiritual, but they are carnal works. Because they are to benefit self.