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E
No, you continue to say it is a gospel. But you refuse to show how it was a gospel. Thus you are just like your catholic brother. Alot of hot air. and no proof. When your confronted with a point you have to answer, You never do. And you expect us to listen to you.
If you want to speak about the gospel. I would love to. Feel free to open a thread about it.
But this thread is not about the gospel. it is about a promise to a nation. Which you have been confronted with, and asked numerous times to show HOW IT IS PART OF THE GOSPEL.
time and time again you refuse. So I must ask.
1. why do you refuse?
2. Why are you in a room which is a discussion about 1 promise, which has NOTHING to do with the gospel. and try to push it to a gospel discussion?
E
they have to spiritualize so many OT prophets which has not been fulfilled. it is all they have, otherwise they would have to admit their error.
that is why the roman church went outside the word of God, and deny it as soul authority in the first place. Because they can not use the word to prove their point, and have to spiritualise so many things to FORCE fulfiment of them, because thier is no literal fulfilment.
It is what the roman hatred of the jewish nation caused.
that is why the roman church went outside the word of God, and deny it as soul authority in the first place. Because they can not use the word to prove their point, and have to spiritualise so many things to FORCE fulfiment of them, because thier is no literal fulfilment.
It is what the roman hatred of the jewish nation caused.
My comment as I look at the recent postings above
I see that few ever post the very significant scriptures that tell of Israel's continuance as a national people while all the nations of the Gentiles will come to an ending ..... there are many
Instead the arguments avoid the same and are scattered, fragmented, and of no substance .... what a futile disturbance
I will say the Revelation's evidence the 144000 of the children of Israel present during the tribulation should be enough alone .... but some just ignore the plain truth
I see a real disconnect inherent in those on this forum that claim to be "Christian" and yet display spirit revealed reality
And by the way the Lord always has good reason for choosing His revealings ..... the tribes of Dan and Manasseh are missing in Revelation 7:1-8 for a reason
Dan was the vanguard tribe that first lead Israel into idolatry and Ephraim is considered to be a subset of Joseph
And both not on the listing appear in Ezekiel 48 .... which is totally ignored by those that attempt to preach their replacement theology ..... this obvious apportionment of land for Israel in the Lord's coming millennial kingdom is a subject of just about every spurious way exercised to discount the Lord's word on the matter
The next tricks are to either claim that the 144000 are of the Gentile "church", or that the passage is only symbolic and has no literal application
This kind if insidious twisting and fools play is evidence of people that are tampering with the Lord's Word for some reason
Study yourselves approved Christians so that you are not drawn into worthless babbling about such matters
I see that few ever post the very significant scriptures that tell of Israel's continuance as a national people while all the nations of the Gentiles will come to an ending ..... there are many
Instead the arguments avoid the same and are scattered, fragmented, and of no substance .... what a futile disturbance
I will say the Revelation's evidence the 144000 of the children of Israel present during the tribulation should be enough alone .... but some just ignore the plain truth
I see a real disconnect inherent in those on this forum that claim to be "Christian" and yet display spirit revealed reality
And by the way the Lord always has good reason for choosing His revealings ..... the tribes of Dan and Manasseh are missing in Revelation 7:1-8 for a reason
Dan was the vanguard tribe that first lead Israel into idolatry and Ephraim is considered to be a subset of Joseph
And both not on the listing appear in Ezekiel 48 .... which is totally ignored by those that attempt to preach their replacement theology ..... this obvious apportionment of land for Israel in the Lord's coming millennial kingdom is a subject of just about every spurious way exercised to discount the Lord's word on the matter
The next tricks are to either claim that the 144000 are of the Gentile "church", or that the passage is only symbolic and has no literal application
This kind if insidious twisting and fools play is evidence of people that are tampering with the Lord's Word for some reason
Study yourselves approved Christians so that you are not drawn into worthless babbling about such matters
They haven't been replaced?
Then explain why Dan is not in the list but Manasseh is.
Jews are of the bloodline of Abraham. Certainly you must know that. You must also know that Manasseh is NOT of the bloodline of Abraham. So according to you, Manesseh cannot be a tribe of Israel.
So if Manasseh is not Jew or Gentile, then what obscure list do they fit in (since Manesseh is not Jew and you stated that there are no tribes that are Gentile)?
Are you suggesting that was a typo in Revelation? That "Dan" was supposed to be in the place of "Manasseh"?
Since you seem to be making the appearance of being an authority on the identity of Israel, then I ask you this... who was the other tribe, other than Manasseh, to be adopted in that was NOT of the bloodline of Abraham? Then explain how either that tribe or Manasseh could have been considered a tribe of Israel since you define Israel as being Jews (bloodline of Abraham). I am very curious to see how you have rationalized this.
What scriptures do you have to support such an error as saying that Manasseh is not really a tribe of Israel because they are not of the bloodline of Abraham?
Yes! Thank you for that. I hope people hear you on this. However, I do think you meant to say that Dan and Ephraim are missing from Revelation 7; not Manasseh. Simple mistake though (especially since Ephraim and Manasseh have something very important in common). The message is the same.
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K
Revelation makes it clear that the 144,000 are from the 12 Jewish tribes, there is no mistaken that.
It clearly shows that in chapter 7 and in chapter 14 shows them with the Lord.
In chapter 7 verse 9 it talks about the rest of us. The great multitude that nobody could number.
Jews are still the elect, and our Lord says to bless them and you will be blessed. Curse them and you will be cursed.
E
if I may..
1. We can not know what dan is not mentioned, he is mentioned in ezekial as recieving part of his inheritance.
2. Manassah is a son of Joseph, Again it is not known why ephram is not mentioned and jospeh is, All we need to know is God knows. and do not question it.
3. It is people of the nation (sons) of Jacob, Or Israel. Not gentiles. we know this, because starting in vs 9 johns sees many (so great which no one can number..ie much more than 144000, from every nation tribe and tongue which were saved during this great tribulation time period.
the question we must ask, Just like im romans 11. Why is God separating people from the nation of Israel (who are still scattered) from Gentiles, in this passage, if we are not to separate them, and think these 144000 have gentiles incuded in them..
1. We can not know what dan is not mentioned, he is mentioned in ezekial as recieving part of his inheritance.
2. Manassah is a son of Joseph, Again it is not known why ephram is not mentioned and jospeh is, All we need to know is God knows. and do not question it.
3. It is people of the nation (sons) of Jacob, Or Israel. Not gentiles. we know this, because starting in vs 9 johns sees many (so great which no one can number..ie much more than 144000, from every nation tribe and tongue which were saved during this great tribulation time period.
the question we must ask, Just like im romans 11. Why is God separating people from the nation of Israel (who are still scattered) from Gentiles, in this passage, if we are not to separate them, and think these 144000 have gentiles incuded in them..
K
Now, in answer to your questions, Dan seems to have been replaced in the list by Manasseh. I do not know if we can be certain why Dan was left out, but I can think of some possibilities. Maybe it was because of any or all of these things that the people of the tribe of Dan did or failed to do:
Perhaps another explanation why Ephraim is not in the list can be found in Psalms:
- had difficulty taking possession of their territory (Joshua 19:47; Judges 18:1),
- took an "ephod, other household gods, a carved image, and a cast idol" (Judges 18:14,17,18),
- attacked and overcame "a peaceful and unsuspecting people" (18:27), and
- set up the idols and their own priests in their new city (18:30,31).
Perhaps another explanation why Ephraim is not in the list can be found in Psalms:
The men of Ephraim, though armed with bows, turned back on the day of battle; they did not keep God's covenant and refused to live by his law. They forgot what he had done, the wonders he had shown them. He did miracles in the sight of their fathers in the land of Egypt, in the region of Zoan. He divided the sea and led them through; he made the water stand firm like a wall. He guided them with the cloud by day and with light from the fire all night. He split the rocks in the desert and gave them water as abundant as the seas; he brought streams out of a rocky crag and made water flow down like rivers. But they continued to sin against him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. ... Then the Lord awoke as from sleep, as a man wakes from the stupor of wine. He beat back his enemies; he put them to everlasting shame. Then he rejected the tents of Joseph, he did not choose the tribe of Ephraim (Psalm 78:9-17,65-67).
Hosea wrote this:Ephraim will be laid waste on the day of reckoning. Among the tribes of Israel I proclaim what is certain. ... Ephraim is oppressed, trampled in judgment, intent on pursuing idols (Hosea 5:9,11)
So James isn't making the point that the breach was healed by Jews and Gentiles being one and dwelling in peace together in Jesus Christ?
You actually don't see that James is quoting Amos in Fulfillment? As ALL OTHER OT prophecies are?
(Act 15:11)
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
(Act 15:14)
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
(Act 15:15)
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
(Act 15:16)
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
(Act 15:17)
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
(Amo 9:11)
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
You don't SEE that??
You actually don't see that James is quoting Amos in Fulfillment? As ALL OTHER OT prophecies are?
(Act 15:11)
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
(Act 15:14)
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
(Act 15:15)
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
(Act 15:16)
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
(Act 15:17)
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
(Amo 9:11)
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
You don't SEE that??
You still have not explained why Manasseh is in the list if what you are saying is true.
And no... the scripture does NOT say Jews. It says 12 tribes of Israel. You are insisting it says other than it says. You will not find one scripture that says they are Jews. You changed it.
What it says is...
And I heard the number of them which were sealed:
Scriptures tells us clearly who they are...
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
And no... the scripture does NOT say Jews. It says 12 tribes of Israel. You are insisting it says other than it says. You will not find one scripture that says they are Jews. You changed it.
What it says is...
And I heard the number of them which were sealed:
Scriptures tells us clearly who they are...
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
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The first saved of the tribulation they are .... and they are mortals who will need to be sealed for protection from the wiles of the tribulation
Then the Lord will lead them to take His gospel first to Israel and then to the nations of the Gentiles during the tribulation .... 144000 apostles [Matthew 24: 14] .... the Lord will not with draw His offer of salvation during the tribulation [Revelation 6:2]
And these will be different because they will not do as their forefathers like Solomon who was led into idolatry by women .... these will follow their Messiah and King where ever He leads them upon the earth
Then the Lord will lead them to take His gospel first to Israel and then to the nations of the Gentiles during the tribulation .... 144000 apostles [Matthew 24: 14] .... the Lord will not with draw His offer of salvation during the tribulation [Revelation 6:2]
And these will be different because they will not do as their forefathers like Solomon who was led into idolatry by women .... these will follow their Messiah and King where ever He leads them upon the earth
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