Works and Salvation

[eternally-gratefull]

you seem to have a problem with works...are we not created unto good works?

No, I do not have a problem with works. I pray everyone learns to do the works God created us to do. In fact, if we want a blessed (happy) life, we should do this. As Jesus said, Blessed are they who.

I have a problem with people who claim those works are required before you are saved, Making salvation a works gospel. and something earned, And not a GRACE gospel, which you could never earn.

 

[mailmandan]

Until you are Spirit born you cannot know the mind of Christ. The Holy Spirit must be present in your heart to know anything Spiritually beyond the basic facts that all men are sinners, that Jesus Christ was without sin and that the judgment of God is upon sin. There is nothing but foolishness in the heart of a man who attempts to describe the things of God which he refuses to know. Professing themselves to be wise they became fools. The wisdom of unsaved men is foolishness to God.

Amen! 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gen 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

It was AFTER Abraham obeyed by offering Isaac that God said "now I know that thou fearest God seeing thou hast not withheld thy son...from Me"


No works = no faith for the works prove the faith.

You make it so easy, it is amazing.

God declared Abraham righteous in Gen 15. In fact, his name had not even been changed yet, it was still Abram.

The sacrifice of Isaac came LONG after abram was declared righteous by God by his FAITH.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God knew it long before Abraham knew it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

they evidently do not think God is an all knowing God. Poor God, How can he prophesy or do anything, since he evidently does not know anything.

 

[notuptome]

does not matter if he knew....what matters is what you do....

Right, wrong or otherwise just do something religious and you will be thought to be a Christian.

To do you must know. To be saved you must believe what the bible teaches of Jesus, His shed blood, His resurrection and His promise of eternal life.

God does the saving by grace. God quickens us who were dead in trespass and sin by grace. God preserves and seals unto the day of redemption by His grace. By grace we are fitted for His use. Some to die, some to suffer but all to glorify Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Obeying God does not earn salvation but obedience is a necessary condition God has put upon His free gift of grace.

contradiction. Open your eyes, You just made two contradictory statements in one post.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, but why would God say "NOW I know" AFTER Abraham obeyed?

so God needed proof? He did not know?? WOW!!

Was he doing it for his own benefit, or for abraham's benefit?

Why do you belittle God so much??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you really believe that God doubted Abraham? Could God have been surprised by Abrahams actions? God said it for Abrahams and our benefit.

Abraham believed God would fulfill His promise and that if Isaac was sacrificed God would raise him up and make of him a great nation. Abraham believed and that is what drove his actions.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen.. why?

1. He knew God would keep his promise (he proved his faith in Gen 3:15 was real, Remember gen 15. When God declared ABRAM righteous??

2. Thus he KNEW God would raise him from the dead, to keep his promise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

your foundation is weak....faith without works is dead...faith alone is dead faith...
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. thus salvation cannot be by faith alone....you even left out grace trying to prove your point...salvation is by grace through faith...

ONCE AGAIN

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FAITH ALONE. A DEAD FAITH IS A NON EXISTANT FAITH IS NO FAITH AT ALL.

But you people will not hear. You are to proud, to self focused to admit all your hard work will not save you, and you must just see yourelf as bancrupt and "call on the name of the lord and you will be saved"

 

[newbirth]

People are right from both points;

Works do not save you, neither does faith alone.

One who has faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior, but does not repent of their sins is not saved.

Same as one who lives a good, loving, and giving life, but does not believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior is not saved.

They work hand and hand, one without the other is dead faith which does not save.



Simplify in human terms: You can not have chocolate milk without having both milk and chocolate syrup.

the point is.... no one is saying works save you....as soon as someone mention works ...that is what people who advocate ' faith alone ' say you believe... we agree with James ...faith without works is dead...you are just trying to be accommodating...I have not seen anyone post this type of person is saved...

Same as one who lives a good, loving, and giving life, but does not believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior is not saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People are right from both points;

Works do not save you, neither does faith alone.

One who has faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior, but does not repent of their sins is not saved.

this is not quite accurate,

one who does not repent of their sin against God does not have faith in God. He is still calling God a liar.

thus, he never had faith.

Same as one who lives a good, loving, and giving life, but does not believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior is not saved.

They work hand and hand, one without the other is dead faith which does not save.



Simplify in human terms: You can not have chocolate milk without having both milk and chocolate syrup.

Again, a bad example.

Chocolate milk would represent faith and a person changed by God from stagnant milk, to something pleasing.

A false, dead, or fake faith would be a glass of milk which is stagnant, and the person is trying to make it pleasing by adding his own flavoring (works) not seeing, it just gets more stagnant, because it was not changed by God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the point is.... no one is saying works save you....as soon as someone mention works ...that is what people who advocate ' faith alone ' say you believe... we agree with James ...faith without works is dead...you are just trying to be accommodating...I have not seen anyone post this type of person is saved...

No one is?

You are
Sea bass is

You all are saying you are saved by works, You add the word faith to it..

Then you deny it by saying your not adding works.

As you say, faith without works is dead, so we MUST WORK, or we are not saved.

thus works are required in your gospel. which is no gospel at all.

 

[newbirth]

ONCE AGAIN

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FAITH ALONE. A DEAD FAITH IS A NON EXISTANT FAITH IS NO FAITH AT ALL.

But you people will not hear. You are to proud, to self focused to admit all your hard work will not save you, and you must just see yourelf as bancrupt and "call on the name of the lord and you will be saved"

Originally Posted by iwant2serve

Let me say this again. No work can save anyone because we are not saved by doing good. Salvation is by faith alone Jesus said whoever believes on him will be saved. To be saved we must believe on the finished work of Jesus that his blood sacrifice paid our debt to sin.
With that being said, receiving Jesus in your heart causes for repentence. That means the way you think has changed from what it was (sinfull) to being renwed in the Spirit Christ like), let this mind be in you which is also in Jesus. Now what kind of works did Jesus do (I only do what the Father tells me). Is the works of God good or sinful? Jesus said the works I do you will also and greater works will you do! Therefore what James is saying is the saving faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross causes you to think differently which causes you to do good works.

direct your post to iwant2serve

Right, wrong or otherwise just do something religious and you will be thought to be a Christian.

To do you must know. To be saved you must believe what the bible teaches of Jesus, His shed blood, His resurrection and His promise of eternal life.

God does the saving by grace. God quickens us who were dead in trespass and sin by grace. God preserves and seals unto the day of redemption by His grace. By grace we are fitted for His use. Some to die, some to suffer but all to glorify Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

or roger

then go read James ...[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[newbirth]

No one is?

You are
Sea bass is

You all are saying you are saved by works, You add the word faith to it..

Then you deny it by saying your not adding works.

As you say, faith without works is dead, so we MUST WORK, or we are not saved.

thus works are required in your gospel. which is no gospel at all.

tell it to James....we are saved by grace.....you claim to be saved by faith...scripture teaches we are saved by grace through faith...and faith without works is dead......you teach you are saved by faith without works......and that is where we part ways....

 

[kennethcadwell]

this is not quite accurate,

one who does not repent of their sin against God does not have faith in God. He is still calling God a liar.

thus, he never had faith.



Again, a bad example.

Chocolate milk would represent faith and a person changed by God from stagnant milk, to something pleasing.

A false, dead, or fake faith would be a glass of milk which is stagnant, and the person is trying to make it pleasing by adding his own flavoring (works) not seeing, it just gets more stagnant, because it was not changed by God.

That is unfortunately what some are doing though.
They take and say no works are required, and therefore they throw the spiritual works done out of love like repentance, baptism, and confessing that was commanded by our Lord away and not needed.

No the human example I gave was not a bad example;

Chocolate milk would be salvation
The milk is ones faith-trusting the Jesus as your Lord and Savior;
The chocolate syrup is ones works- good deeds done out of that love and trust for the Lord, by obeying Him.

There is to many churches now days that teach that repentance, baptism, and confession are not needed. They can go ahead and live their lives thinking Jesus is their Lord and Savior, but until they obey Him and repent, confess, and be baptized ( born again ) living in love they have no salvation.
They will be those the Lord says will be weeping and gnashing at the teeth, yelling why are we not saved.

 

[newbirth]

No, I do not have a problem with works. I pray everyone learns to do the works God created us to do. In fact, if we want a blessed (happy) life, we should do this. As Jesus said, Blessed are they who.

I have a problem with people who claim those works are required before you are saved, Making salvation a works gospel. and something earned, And not a GRACE gospel, which you could never earn.

are we saved by grace through faith?..yes or no?
is faith without works dead?...yes or no?
can you show me your faith without works?...yes or no?
does being saved by grace through faith mean works are required to be saved?...yes or no?
if faith without works is dead, can you be saved by grace through faith without works(dead faith)? yes or no

these are all biblical teachings ...you don't have to answer them...just see what your doctrine say about them...

 

[GuessWho]

Paul did not limit the word "works" to only specific works under the Law, as I explained in post #132.

On the contrary, Paul was a Jew that lived in a certain time and space and talked in a certain manner according to the jewish tradition and history, and not an American of the 21 century who understands "works" as meaning whatever the American wants them to mean. In the Bible and in the history of the Israel, God promulgated The Law which is the Covenant between God and His chosen people. For God, to act righteously means to act according to His Covenant. A Jew was righteous before God as long as he respected the Covenant. Justification is God's declaration that certain people are within the covenant. The covenant was designed as a means of undoing the sin of the humanity.
Israel started to boast about she alone being within the covenant so God sent His only begotten Son, renewed the Covenant in such way so that the ungodly (sinners, Gentiles) may also be justified.

Please, stop making Saint Paul the supporter of your ideas and simply try to understand the context in which he is speaking and preaching.

Now show me where Paul said that we are "saved by works." What did Paul say in Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; and 2 Timothy 1:9? The whole "not saved by specific works of the Law" but "saved by good works in general" argument is bogus. Roman Catholics and Mormons use this argument as well in order to "get around" the truth that salvation is through faith and is not by works.

You show me first, where did I say such thing (that Paul preaches salvation by works).

 

[mailmandan]

On the contrary, Paul was a Jew that lived in a certain time and space and talked in a certain manner according to the jewish tradition and history, and not an American of the 21 century who understands "works" as meaning whatever the American wants them to mean.

Paul often speaks of "works of the Law," since there were particular kinds of works under the Law that members of his audience were prone to perform, being Jewish (Acts 15:5; Romans 3; Galatians 3). However, when speaking to churches with a large Gentile constituency, Paul sometimes used the word "works" without limiting it only to specific works under the Law of Moses. In Ephesians he declares, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast". Likewise, in Titus 3:5 he affirmed that it is "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.." So, it is not just "specific works of the law" of Moses but ANY "works" or "works of righteousness" that are the insufficient means of our salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, not works, but FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10), which are not completely detached from the moral aspect of the Law.

Please, stop making Saint Paul the supporter of your ideas and simply try to understand the context in which he is speaking and preaching.

Did Paul say that we are saved by grace through faith and good works; just not specific works of the Law of Moses in Ephesians 2:8-9? No.

You show me first, where did I say such thing (that Paul preaches salvation by works).

Isn't that your implication? Not saved by works of the Law but by good works? Roman Catholics call it saved through faith "infused with works" just not works of the Law and then those works become meritorious for salvation. People in the church of Christ call it saved through faith "conjoined with works" just not works of the Law. Do you believe that we are saved through faith, not works, or that we are saved through faith AND works? Are there any good works that Christians do which are completely detached from the moral aspect of the Law of Moses? (Matthew 22:37-40).

 

[GuessWho]

Paul often speaks of "works of the Law," since there were particular kinds of works under the Law that members of his audience were prone to perform, being Jewish (Acts 15:5; Romans 3; Galatians 3). However, when speaking to churches with a large Gentile constituency, Paul sometimes used the word "works" without limiting it only to specific works under the Law of Moses. In Ephesians he declares, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast". Likewise, in Titus 3:5 he affirmed that it is "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.." So, it is not just "specific works of the law" of Moses but ANY "works" or "works of righteousness" that are the insufficient means of our salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, not works, but FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10), which are not completely detached from the moral aspect of the Law.

He wants to say that whoever (whether Gentile or Jew) wants to be part of the New Covenant (renewed by God through the Sacrifice and Resurrection of Jesus Christ - the Gospel) he does not need to work works of righteousness (possess the Law, be circumcised or be of Jewish birth; these are unnecessary and insufficient), but he must believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah who made us all righteous before God. In order to enter in the new covenant family, one must believe and unite himself with the death and resurrection of Christ.

Did Paul say that we are saved by grace through faith and good works; just not specific works of the Law of Moses in Ephesians 2:8-9? No.

Ephesians 4:21-24New International Version (NIV)

21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self,which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

In regard of salvation, Paul is clear. Salvation only because (or by) the grace incarnated in Jesus Christ. But one is saved IF he enters into the New Covenant, gives up his old self and renews his entire way of living. This new life starts with metanoia (changing of the mind) and MUST be continued on every little aspect of your life.

Isn't that your implication? Not saved by works of the Law but by good works? Roman Catholics call it saved through faith "infused with works" just not works of the Law and then those works become meritorious for salvation. People in the church of Christ call it saved through faith "conjoined with works" just not works of the Law. Do you believe that we are saved through faith, not works, or that we are saved through faith AND works? Are there any good works that Christians do which are completely detached from the moral aspect of the Law of Moses? (Matthew 22:37-40).

No. That was not my implication. My implication was that we must have a LIVING faith.
Edit: a faith that produces fruits.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

direct your post to iwant2serve

or roger

then go read James ...[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

why would I direct it to him.

Your the one saying your not preaching works. then demands works.

You can;t even get your story straight, and you want me to talk to someone else?