Gods Mercy,Why the Jews are Still Gods Chosen People

[eternally-gratefull]

The opinion is no problem.
The problem is you do not allow the possibility that another might be correct.
You are right, everybody else is wrong. 100% sure.

You act as if I have no study in this. and just made up my opinion on my own. I have studied this for almost 30 years. It is one of my favorite subjects. I have changed my opinion on quite a few topics in this subject.

it is not that I know I am right, and everyone else is wrong, it is that no one has shown me anything to make me consider changing my mind.

one of the greatest arguments against preterism is the literal interpretation of prophesy. If you study history, Preterism did not even come about until the roman take over of the church, it was then that they got away from the literal interpretation of the word (because they could not support their belief system they wanted to enforce) and also got away from the Holy Bible as the sole authority for Church doctrine, It came out of a strong anti-semetic dogma (history shows a huge anti-semetic mindset and horrible atrocities against the jews in the age of the church by the roman church, even Hitler used a strong anti-semetic book written by Luther himself.

We have not even touched end times theories or dogma, We have only hit the outside edges, It seems for some reason people want to always talk about the same things and not even really get into it. I would love to, but it seems people do not want to.

If you would like to, I would love to. But to site there and judge me when you do not even know me, Well that is uncalled for!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

sweetie, that's a pretty accurate description of each and every one of us.
(especially me)

you nailed it.

I would not say that exactly, I have changed my opinion on a few things since being here. We should always be open to the fact we may be wrong, But should never blindly follow anyone, but test all things.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And again WHERE in the NT does the apostles EVER point to an EARTHLY KINGDOM post Pentecost?

How many times do you have to be shown?

Acts 1:6,7 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Here all 12 are asking Christ about the kingdom and his rule. And christ did not rebuke them, set them straight or anything, All he did was it not for them to know. take that with matt 24/mark 13. And add in romans 11, revelation and all the ot prophesies concerning KING messiah, and you will see.

The apostles (even Christ himself) used the OT prophesies to prove everything about christs coming to earth and dieing, In fact they LITERALLY COME TRUE, not only to the word, but the exact time frame (see daniel 9 and others) So if his first coming fulfilled literal everything concerning this suffering servant, why would the things concerning his earthly kingdom come literally true?

 

[SarahM777]

How many times do you have to be shown?

Acts 1:6,7 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Here all 12 are asking Christ about the kingdom and his rule. And christ did not rebuke them, set them straight or anything, All he did was it not for them to know. take that with matt 24/mark 13. And add in romans 11, revelation and all the ot prophesies concerning KING messiah, and you will see.

The apostles (even Christ himself) used the OT prophesies to prove everything about christs coming to earth and dieing, In fact they LITERALLY COME TRUE, not only to the word, but the exact time frame (see daniel 9 and others) So if his first coming fulfilled literal everything concerning this suffering servant, why would the things concerning his earthly kingdom come literally true?

Again you DID NOT read what I said. They asked the question PRE-PENTECOST. Again I asked where do they say so POST Pentecost? Three things have NOT YET taken place,Jesus has not yet ascended into heaven,He has not yet sat down at the right hand of the Father,and the disciples have not yet received the Holy Spirit who would LEAD THEM INTO ALL TRUTH. Yet somehow AFTER they receive the Holy Spirit they NEVER AGAIN speak of an earthly kingdom. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE that the Holy Spirit DID NOT lead them to ever write about a third temple built by human hands,another restoration of Israel to the land,and an earthly kingdom?

At that point in time they themselves DID NOT understand the nature of the KINGDOM.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

And again WHERE in the NT does the apostles EVER point to an EARTHLY KINGDOM post Pentecost? Again Jesus very plainly said His Kingdom is NOT of this world. How then can it be an earthly Kingdom and yet He has NOT LIED? If He lied then He can NOT be the Messiah because then He SINNED. If He is not the Messiah then your sins are not forgiven.

Over and over again Jesus,the apostles and John the Baptist proclaimed the Kingdom of Heaven was AT HAND. Did Jesus LIE when He said this?

Mark 9

And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

If the Kingdom of God DID NOT come BEFORE all the apostles DIED then that makes Jesus a FALSE PROPHET.

I don't understand all things and haven't studied EVERYTHING but I do know that the prophecies concerning the second coming of Christ have NOT occurred. I do know that if scripture says that the New Jerusalem will come "down from heaven" then it will come down to the new heavens and new earth. I do know that we are not to be a "part of this world" so when Jesus says his "kingdom is not part of this world" maybe he also means that it cannot be part of this present evil world.

Again why did the apostles ask Jesus: Acts 1:6,7 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power?
which corresponds with this: No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Matt. 24:36 Is any of the above a LIE?

Did Paul LIE when he wrote this?

Colossians 1

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives,[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]10 [/SUP]so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, [SUP]11 [/SUP]being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, [SUP]12 [/SUP]and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you[SUP][f][/SUP] to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,[SUP]14 [/SUP]in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

I still live in this world which is under the dominion of Satan . . . I won't be "literally" rescued until Christ comes back and redeems me and I enter His kingdom.

[/QUOTThe writer of Hebrews writes this,did he lie?

Hebrews 12

[SUP]18 [/SUP]You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; [SUP]19 [/SUP]to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, [SUP]20 [/SUP]because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.”[SUP][c][/SUP][SUP]21 [/SUP]The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”[SUP][d][/SUP]

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, [SUP]23 [/SUP]to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, [SUP]24 [/SUP]to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? [SUP]26 [/SUP]At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]27 [/SUP]The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, [SUP]29 [/SUP]for our “God is a consuming fire"

What does it say in Revelation concerning the "heavenly Jerusalem", the holy city, new Jerusalem?

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. . . . And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[SarahM777]

I don't understand all things and haven't studied EVERYTHING but I do know that the prophecies concerning the second coming of Christ have NOT occurred. I do know that if scripture says that the New Jerusalem will come "down from heaven" then it will come down to the new heavens and new earth. I do know that we are not to be a "part of this world" so when Jesus says his "kingdom is not part of this world" maybe he also means that it cannot be part of this present evil world.

Again why did the apostles ask Jesus: Acts 1:6,7 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power?
which corresponds with this: No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Matt. 24:36 Is any of the above a LIE?

I still live in this world which is under the dominion of Satan . . . I won't be "literally" rescued until Christ comes back and redeems me and I enter His kingdom.

What does it say in Revelation concerning the "heavenly Jerusalem", the holy city, new Jerusalem?

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. . . . And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The answer to the first part is the same as to EG

Again you DID NOT read what I said. They asked the question PRE-PENTECOST. Again I asked where do they say so POST Pentecost? Three things have NOT YET taken place,Jesus has not yet ascended into heaven,He has not yet sat down at the right hand of the Father,and the disciples have not yet received the Holy Spirit who would LEAD THEM INTO ALL TRUTH. Yet somehow AFTER they receive the Holy Spirit they NEVER AGAIN speak of an earthly kingdom. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE that the Holy Spirit DID NOT lead them to ever write about a third temple built by human hands,another restoration of Israel to the land,and an earthly kingdom?

At that point in time they themselves DID NOT understand the nature of the KINGDOM.

So are you saying you are NOT in the Kingdom at this time? So do you disagree with this passage?


Colossians 1

3For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again you DID NOT read what I said. They asked the question PRE-PENTECOST. Again I asked where do they say so POST Pentecost? Three things have NOT YET taken place,Jesus has not yet ascended into heaven,He has not yet sat down at the right hand of the Father,and the disciples have not yet received the Holy Spirit who would LEAD THEM INTO ALL TRUTH. Yet somehow AFTER they receive the Holy Spirit they NEVER AGAIN speak of an earthly kingdom. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE that the Holy Spirit DID NOT lead them to ever write about a third temple built by human hands,another restoration of Israel to the land,and an earthly kingdom?

At that point in time they themselves DID NOT understand the nature of the KINGDOM.

I do not understand you.

1. Jesus corected them many times when they were wrong, he did not correct them here (they did not need the HS, they had Jesus, he said he would send the HS AFTER he left since they would not have him to teach them all things, not because he could not.)
2. You have to assume there would be a reason to bring it up. what reason would their be? It has not happened yet, will not happen in their lifetimem and there was far far more pressing things to teach then some future restoration of Israel.
3. As you have been shown, Paul did in romans 11 (God has not forgot Israel, They WILL all be saved, and Gods promises and GIFTS still stand, and revelation, which is the NT form of prophesy, as Daniel is to the OT.

forgive me if I am wrong, But you seem to only want to ask questions which do not even pertain to the subject, or make no sense at all (like this one. Jesus could not help them understand? WHAT????

and do not want to respond to things which do. Then you wonder why people get upset and act the way they do?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The answer to the first part is the same as to EG

Again you DID NOT read what I said. They asked the question PRE-PENTECOST. Again I asked where do they say so POST Pentecost? Three things have NOT YET taken place,Jesus has not yet ascended into heaven,He has not yet sat down at the right hand of the Father,and the disciples have not yet received the Holy Spirit who would LEAD THEM INTO ALL TRUTH. Yet somehow AFTER they receive the Holy Spirit they NEVER AGAIN speak of an earthly kingdom. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE that the Holy Spirit DID NOT lead them to ever write about a third temple built by human hands,another restoration of Israel to the land,and an earthly kingdom?

At that point in time they themselves DID NOT understand the nature of the KINGDOM.

So are you saying you are NOT in the Kingdom at this time? So do you disagree with this passage?


Colossians 1

3For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

The eternal kingdom in heaven, is not the same kingdom of the messiah sitting on davids throne.

1. Heaven will not need a messiah, it will have a king of people who can not sin, Do not need to be judged, but spend an eternity living with their God, and learning and enjoying.

2. Earth will have a kingdom. God will still have to chasten the sinner, Still have to chasten nations who do not come to worhip him and see him as rightful king, Still are separated Israel and Gentile.

You can not look at the prophesies concerning king messiah, and the heavenly kingdom and see them as the same thing, they do not fit. There will be no sinners in heaven to judge, or rule.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

rom 11:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,When I take away their sins.”[SUP][h][/SUP]




Paul spoke of this OT prophesy in future tense, he was not speaking of the messiah who came died and went back to his God and is sitting at the right hand of the father, he is talking of a future event. the return of the lord.

 

[SarahM777]

The eternal kingdom in heaven, is not the same kingdom of the messiah sitting on davids throne.

1. Heaven will not need a messiah, it will have a king of people who can not sin, Do not need to be judged, but spend an eternity living with their God, and learning and enjoying.

2. Earth will have a kingdom. God will still have to chasten the sinner, Still have to chasten nations who do not come to worhip him and see him as rightful king, Still are separated Israel and Gentile.

You can not look at the prophesies concerning king messiah, and the heavenly kingdom and see them as the same thing, they do not fit. There will be no sinners in heaven to judge, or rule.

Again you DO NOT UNDERSTAND the nature of the kingdom. It's the same mistake the Israelites made when they went to Samuel and asked for an earthly king. They rejected God the Father's kingship because they wanted to be like the other nations,they DID NOT want a king ruling from heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again you DO NOT UNDERSTAND the nature of the kingdom. It's the same mistake the Israelites made when they went to Samuel and asked for an earthly king. They rejected God the Father's kingship because they wanted to be like the other nations,they DID NOT want a king ruling from heaven.

Yes I do understand it. And your right in everything you said, God wanted to be their God, they did not want that, they wanted a king. God gave them one,

Then one of those kings wanted to build him a house. God did not let him but only let his son do it. But God also loved this king so much, he promised he would send one from his flesh who would rule from his bloodline, and rule in the house david so badly wanted to build (the temple)

They also say he will rule not only Israel. but the nations. Show me when this happened. when nations are worshiping God, and even coming to him to worship him in jerusalem? and God promises to judge those who do not do this?

The prophesies also speak of things this king messiah will do. One is judge sinners. and even nations who do not follow him. Unless your going to say their will be people sinning in heaven, and there will be need of rain in heaven (God withholds it as a judgment on a sinning nation) then it is you who do not understand the reign of Christ on David's throne.

You guys want me to listen to you and contemplate what you say, yet you can not explain these basic points.

 

[SarahM777]

I do not understand you.

1. Jesus corected them many times when they were wrong, he did not correct them here (they did not need the HS, they had Jesus, he said he would send the HS AFTER he left since they would not have him to teach them all things, not because he could not.)
2. You have to assume there would be a reason to bring it up. what reason would their be? It has not happened yet, will not happen in their lifetimem and there was far far more pressing things to teach then some future restoration of Israel.
3. As you have been shown, Paul did in romans 11 (God has not forgot Israel, They WILL all be saved, and Gods promises and GIFTS still stand, and revelation, which is the NT form of prophesy, as Daniel is to the OT.

forgive me if I am wrong, But you seem to only want to ask questions which do not even pertain to the subject, or make no sense at all (like this one. Jesus could not help them understand? WHAT????

and do not want to respond to things which do. Then you wonder why people get upset and act the way they do?

The reason it does not make sense to you is that are using HUMAN REASONING to understand these things.

No where in Romans does it say Israel will be restored to the land or have an earthly kingdom. You are reading that into the text. The land promise is a type and shadow. God has NOT forgotten that promise. God will bring those that will believe into the kingdom. I have never said otherwise.

 

[SarahM777]

Yes I do understand it. And your right in everything you said, God wanted to be their God, they did not want that, they wanted a king. God gave them one,

Then one of those kings wanted to build him a house. God did not let him but only let his son do it. But God also loved this king so much, he promised he would send one from his flesh who would rule from his bloodline, and rule in the house david so badly wanted to build (the temple)

They also say he will rule not only Israel. but the nations. Show me when this happened. when nations are worshiping God, and even coming to him to worship him in jerusalem? and God promises to judge those who do not do this?

The prophesies also speak of things this king messiah will do. One is judge sinners. and even nations who do not follow him. Unless your going to say their will be people sinning in heaven, and there will be need of rain in heaven (God withholds it as a judgment on a sinning nation) then it is you who do not understand the reign of Christ on David's throne.

You guys want me to listen to you and contemplate what you say, yet you can not explain these basic points.

You are trying to use human reasoning to understand these things. All of these MUST be filtered through what the apostles wrote POST PENTECOST.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are trying to use human reasoning to understand these things. All of these MUST be filtered through what the apostles wrote POST PENTECOST.

Human reasoning?

Human reasoning states there will be sin in heaven which needs to be judged by the king?

Human reasoning states all prophesies concerning the coming of the suffering servant is literal, but concerning king messiah must be spiritualised?

Human reasoning which says Paul spoke of the coming of the lord to take away the sin of Jacob in future tense, but we need to interpret it as past tense?

Human reasoning that says the only way to interpret old testament prophesy is with apostles post Pentecost?

again, your not making any sense at all.. Human reasoning says God will not keep his promise, That OT prophesies will not be literally fulfilled, and that there will be sin in heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The reason it does not make sense to you is that are using HUMAN REASONING to understand these things.

No where in Romans does it say Israel will be restored to the land or have an earthly kingdom. You are reading that into the text. The land promise is a type and shadow. God has NOT forgotten that promise. God will bring those that will believe into the kingdom. I have never said otherwise.

sorry, but I can not agree

1. Paul spoke future (literally, these things will occur when the FULLNESS OF THE GENTILE IS COMPLETE)
2. Paul spoke of the gifts of God (the land was a GIFT OF GOD TO THE NATION OF ISREAL) are irrevocable, they STILL STAND.

Yes, God will bring all who believe into the kingdom. Jacob will be in Israel. the gentile nations will be in their own land, And ALL will praise and glorify God, Yet there will still be sin, Still be nations who try to go against God (needing punished) and still be a final battle at the end of this kingdom reign (see revelation)

 

[SarahM777]

Human reasoning?

Human reasoning states there will be sin in heaven which needs to be judged by the king?

Human reasoning states all prophesies concerning the coming of the suffering servant is literal, but concerning king messiah must be spiritualised?

Human reasoning which says Paul spoke of the coming of the lord to take away the sin of Jacob in future tense, but we need to interpret it as past tense?

Human reasoning that says the only way to interpret old testament prophesy is with apostles post Pentecost?

again, your not making any sense at all.. Human reasoning says God will not keep his promise, That OT prophesies will not be literally fulfilled, and that there will be sin in heaven.

So boiled down on this are you saying Jesus is not your king? You are not in a kingdom? Or are you saying you have a quasi king? Are you saying Jesus is not sitting at the right hand of the Father and has NOT BEEN GIVEN ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH?

 

[SarahM777]

And to take it further How in the world can ANYONE say that JESUS HAS BEEN GIVEN ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH AND THAT JESUS IS NOT RULING AS KING IN BOTH HEAVEN AND EARTH?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So boiled down on this are you saying Jesus is not your king? You are not in a kingdom? Or are you saying you have a quasi king? Are you saying Jesus is not sitting at the right hand of the Father and has NOT BEEN GIVEN ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH?

No, that is not true at all. your putting words in my mouth, does that make you feel good?

Jesus is not rulling my nation, I have a quasi king in Obama who is more worried about the islamic people, and making poor people who do not want to work rich. But Jesus is my God and my personal king (I follow him)

why do you ignore the signs of the kingdom? And all you have to say is I reject jesus as MY KING?

It is not about who is YOUR KING, it is who is rulling your nation. there will be no national kings in the kingdom. this is prophesied. but something you either ignore, or do not want to see (or maybe some other reason?)

Again, Why is Jesus on his throne punishing NATIONS (not people) who do not come to jerusalem to worship him.

Why is he ruling with the wrath of God on nations who do not follow him, with a rod of iron. and chastening those who do follow him and getting them back on path with this same rod?

Why is paul taking and OT prophesy concerning Israel and God removing their sin as a future prophesy, since Christ already came and went?

just two of the many many questions you have yet to answer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And to take it further How in the world can ANYONE say that JESUS HAS BEEN GIVEN ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH AND THAT JESUS IS NOT RULING AS KING IN BOTH HEAVEN AND EARTH?

how?

Jesus is not judging nations, He is not even judging many evil people walking the earth)

There is still not peace on earth

Nations are still ruling themselves, and committing major atrocities of pure evil.

The OT prophets say when messiah is king, these things will not happen.

We listen to the prophets. And this is a bad thing?

 

[SarahM777]

how?

Jesus is not judging nations, He is not even judging many evil people walking the earth)

There is still not peace on earth

Nations are still ruling themselves, and committing major atrocities of pure evil.

The OT prophets say when messiah is king, these things will not happen.

We listen to the prophets. And this is a bad thing?

Yes He is,you do not understand what this judgement is at this time. The judgement is that the Word of God is proclaimed and JUDGES us as being guilty before the Lord. Is it the Holy Spirit that brings CONVICTION to the world. There is peace on this earth,those that are His have His peace between each other and before God. My Bible plainly says that we have the peace that passes all understanding.