What of the dinosaurs?

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

The Sumerian creation myth was translated over the centuries into Akkadian (northern Semitic) and later Ugaritic (proto-Hebrew). A key event in the Ugaritic version was the destruction of the monster allies of the death god Yamm by the paramount god called variously, El ulam, Ba'l Haddu, or Marduk (Babylonian). The monster servants of Yamm were called "Lotan" and "Rahab," or "Tiamat" (Babylonian). Yamm ruled the under-world which was a deep sea below the dry "land."

This should start to sound a little bit familiar.

Lotan was transliterated to "leviathan," and Yamm became the Hebrew for "sea," yam. Rahab is named a few times directly in the Bible, and by description as well. "Ba'l Haddu" is reduced to a biblical demon, and his epic achievements are reassigned to Yahweh. later, El (Northern) and Yahweh (Southern) and In this regard, there are particularly interesting passages in the Book of Job which deserve further proper study. For example, in the opening "front piece" the paramount god El is introduced in Hebrew as "el bene elohim" and "yahweh el elohim" or literally, "god of the council of gods" and Yahweh, god of the gods."

I am not proposing to present all of this in a chat room. Instead, here is a reading list of excellent studies;
Bodine, Walter R., (Ed.)
1992 "Linguistics and Biblical Hebrew." Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns

Jewish Publication Society
2004 “The Jewish Study Bible: TANAKA translation” Oxford University Press.

Pardee, Dennis
2002 "Writings from the Ancient World Vol. 10: Ritual and Cult at Ugarit" Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature

Parker, Simon B. (Editor)
1997 "Ugarit Narrative Poetry" Translated by Mark S. Smith, Simon B. Parker, Edward L Greenstein, Theodore J. Lewis, David Marcus, Vol. 9 Writings from the Ancient World. Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature

Pope, Marvin H.
1965 “Job: A new translation with Introduction and Commentary” Anchor Bible Vol. 15, New York: ABRL/Doubleday

All of the authors cited above are Christian. This is apparently important to some people. There is a weirdness to this, and the Book was written by the Jews, for the Jews. In honor of that obvious fact, here are two essential books anyone pretending to be a serious student of the Bible must have;

Jewish Publication Society
2004 “The Jewish Study Bible: TANAKA translation” Oxford University Press.

Rabbi Natan Slifkin,
2007 “Sacred Monsters: Mysterious and Mythical Creatures of Scripture, Talmud and Midrash” New York: Zoo Torah and Yashar Books

 

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

Yes, I mentioned that the passages are partly symbolic of God's power over the pagan chaos monster, Leviathan. It's showing that even the Ugaritic Leviathan (symbolizing Satan) is but a simple creature in comparison to God.

You guys...

The prologue from the Book of Job 1: 6-12 is quite interesting. El the paramount god of the Hebrew pantheon holds court in the Council of Gods, Hebrew "el bene elohim." The paramount god holding court is El, also called "el elohim" or "El, God of the gods." Elsewhere we find this god is called “el elohim Yahweh” or “Yahweh, the God of the gods,” used to assimilate the Northern Israel tradition of El as the paramount god with the Southern Yahweh tradition of Juda. Also give attention to the fact that “the Satan,” in biblical Hebrew "il’shatan," literally translated is "God El’s Satan." Satan is appearing at the command, and under the direction of the God El.

The late Babylonian Empire employed secret agents empowered to act as both judge and executioner. They were ‘agents provocateur’ with the nickname of the “Emperor’s wanderers,” or, "Emperor's roaming eyes." (Akkadean verb “shu-ut” = to wander). The Akkadean "roamer" or "wanderer" is "shatar." Later consonant shifts, and a reinterpretation yielded a secondary meaning “shatan”= to accuse. This leads directly to biblical Hebrew "il’shatan," God’s Satan (God's Wanderer) having the role of the “the Adversary” which is another of the biblical Satan's nicknames. It also provides a rather amusing world play in Job 1:7 since the Satan says he was “wandering about” and the name Satan is derived from the Akkadean verb “shu-ut” = to wander.

So an actually literal translation would be "El asked, Where "My Wanderer" have you been? I have been wandering, my Lord God, wandering (and/or accusing) on the Earth, said God's Wanderer."

 

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

Good grief! The local text editing software really trashed this post.

Lotan was transliterated to "leviathan," and Yamm became the Hebrew for "sea," yam. Rahab is named a few times directly in the Bible, and by description as well. "Ba'l Haddu" is reduced to a biblical demon, and his epic achievements are reassigned to Yahweh. later, El ulam (Northern) and Yahweh (Southern) and In this regard, there are particularly interesting passages in the Book of Job which deserve further proper study. For example, in the opening "front piece" the paramount god El is introduced in Hebrew as "el bene elohim" and "yahweh el elohim" or literally, "god of the council of gods" and Yahweh, god of the gods."

Here is what I tried to post:

Lotan was transliterated to "leviathan," and Yamm became the Hebrew for "sea," yam. Rahab is named a few times directly in the Bible, and by description as well. "Ba'l Haddu" is reduced to a biblical demon "Ba'al," and his epic achievements are reassigned to Yahweh. Still later, El (Northern) and Yahweh (Southern) were merged joining the Southern, and Northern traditions. In this regard there are particularly interesting passages in the Book of Job which deserve further proper study. For example, in the opening "front piece" the paramount god El is introduced in Hebrew as "el bene elohim" and "yahweh el elohim" or literally, "god of the council of gods" and Yahweh, god of the gods."

 

[SoulWeaver]

It is easy to believe in what you're posting when you only know of God, and not know God.
Anyways the things you say still dont contradict the Bible, I just dont care to even validate that position by going into a big refutal post.

 

[Tintin]

Dr. There's far more to it but the correct order isn't:

Pagan gods and goddesses, then the creation Judeo/Christian God being birthed from that.

The correct order is:

The Judeo/Christian God, then corruptions of the one true God and His nature, along with ancestor worship, leading to the creation of pagan gods/goddesses.

 

[JackH]

It is easy to believe in what you're posting when you only know of God, and not know God.
Anyways the things you say still dont contradict the Bible, I just dont care to even validate that position by going into a big refutal post.

I would be interested in your big post refuting what Dr. Hurd.

Especially since you said in Post #766: "I am curious to know which animals the behemoth and leviathan are? Never studied that in depth." Apparently Dr. Hurd has.

So basically three different viewpoints have been expressed in this thread: Behemoth is a hippo, or elephant, or some such animal; it is a dinosaur, specifically a sauropod; or it is a mythological creature.

Thus far, I have resisted the temptation to post a pic of a giant sauropod getting shade from a lotus plant.

From the Book of Enoch:

7. And on that day were two monsters parted, a female monster named Leviathan, to dwell in the abysses of the ocean over the fountains of the waters. 8. But the male is named Behemoth, who occupied with his breast a waste wilderness named †Dûidâin†, on the east of the garden where the elect and righteous dwell,

 

[JackH]

Dr. There's far more to it but the correct order isn't:

Pagan gods and goddesses, then the creation Judeo/Christian God being birthed from that.

The correct order is:

The Judeo/Christian God, then corruptions of the one true God and His nature, along with ancestor worship, leading to the creation of pagan gods/goddesses.

So convince me with some evidence.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Not looking in detail into one issue does not make you ignorant in another.
Again, I dont intend to validate that position by arguing with it. I will say only this. It is the same as those folks who claim that Hebrew "Amen" comes from the name of an Egyptian god Amun and similar mindgames, while the Hebrew word existed in the common language before the Egyptians invented their god and it meant firmness, surety or establishment of truth, something like it. So if you dig deep enough, you will always find out that this stuff is nonsense because it consists of man's ideas about how things happened and not of facts.

 

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

It is the same as those folks who claim that Hebrew "Amen" comes from the name of an Egyptian god Amun and similar mindgames, ...

That is a new one on me. You are correct in this instance as that notion is invalid linguistically. People that never studied linguistics commonly make the mistake that homophones imply some language link.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

That is a new one on me. You are correct in this instance as that notion is invalid linguistically. People that never studied linguistics commonly make the mistake that homophones imply some language link.

I see from your profile you are a non-Christian, meaning spiritually lost. I am concerned there are some who claim to be Christians who would let themselves become obsessed with your words. It is evident already you are more than a "non-believer", but an enemy of God, seeking to kill souls by planting distrust in the integrity of God's word. Answer to the Father if He has not stopped calling you. He will not call you to the feast continually.

I also note that you are like atheists, scoffers, and the skeptics that abound on atheist web pages that delight in mere denial of anything science that agrees with God. Instead of answering my spiritual comments and challenges here on this Christian place, you and your little following carry on the same tactics of throwing web pages at me and others who are on to you, yet trying to convince you of truth. All that kind of effort feeds empty souls with even more unprovable pseudo science, while draining time resources of the godly among us.

For anyone willing to waste time reading only atheistic commentary, let me point out a better alternative. The evolution/old earth/young earth/dating rocks, etc. debates are well summarized on two websites. The dark side is TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy

http://www.trueorigin.org/ refutes the lies from the dark side. It doesn't take much time to familiarize yourself with the issues so you can get on with more worthwhile pursuits like making disciples for Christ and helping them grow.


The main defense of the dark side are the same haughty attitudes that resulted in many evolution frauds and hoaxes, deliberately leaving such deceptions in children's textbooks after exposure. The atheists also resort to castigation of authors on the light side, which distracts their readers from looking much at the actual contents of Trueorigins. I believe the objective of the dark side is to present anti-Bible propaganda by the same methods Satan has used from the beginning. It isn't really about trustworthiness of their science pursuits, but to distract Christians from trusting the Bible message given by God.

Christian, you have seen that in operation here already, all the same demonic tactics the Bible warned of long before any science emerged. They can't answer the spiritual, the "natural man" unable to do that. There's your sign. If they try, they show their ignorance, blinded by the Devil. Even though modern secular science must continually re-invent itself, Satan has plenty of use for faulty humanism religion called Naturalism among believers of Christ. Guard your soul.

I have but one comment today to the skeptics and scorners of truth here...Get thee behind me Satan.

 

[ColinCat]

You know what would end this once and for all Swordsman?

Evidence. That's all it takes to end this right now.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[JackH]

You know what would end this once and for all Swordsman?

Evidence. That's all it takes to end this right now.

Exactly.

The topic of this thread is dinosaurs.

What I want to see is evidence that humans and dinosaurs coexisted, as the Institution for Creation Research, Answers in Genesis (Ken Ham), Dr. Dino (Kent Hovind), YECs in this thread, et al, somehow manage to state emphatically with a straight face.

What would convince me?

Fossils of humans and dinosaurs found together with T. rex bite marks on the crushed human bones.

 

[JackH]

I see from your profile you are a non-Christian, meaning spiritually lost. I am concerned there are some who claim to be Christians who would let themselves become obsessed with your words. It is evident already you are more than a "non-believer", but an enemy of God, seeking to kill souls by planting distrust in the integrity of God's word. Answer to the Father if He has not stopped calling you. He will not call you to the feast continually.

I also note that you are like atheists, scoffers, and the skeptics that abound on atheist web pages that delight in mere denial of anything science that agrees with God. Instead of answering my spiritual comments and challenges here on this Christian place, you and your little following carry on the same tactics of throwing web pages at me and others who are on to you, yet trying to convince you of truth. All that kind of effort feeds empty souls with even more unprovable pseudo science, while draining time resources of the godly among us.

For anyone willing to waste time reading only atheistic commentary, let me point out a better alternative. The evolution/old earth/young earth/dating rocks, etc. debates are well summarized on two websites. The dark side is TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy

http://www.trueorigin.org/ refutes the lies from the dark side. It doesn't take much time to familiarize yourself with the issues so you can get on with more worthwhile pursuits like making disciples for Christ and helping them grow.


The main defense of the dark side are the same haughty attitudes that resulted in many evolution frauds and hoaxes, deliberately leaving such deceptions in children's textbooks after exposure. The atheists also resort to castigation of authors on the light side, which distracts their readers from looking much at the actual contents of Trueorigins. I believe the objective of the dark side is to present anti-Bible propaganda by the same methods Satan has used from the beginning. It isn't really about trustworthiness of their science pursuits, but to distract Christians from trusting the Bible message given by God.

Christian, you have seen that in operation here already, all the same demonic tactics the Bible warned of long before any science emerged. They can't answer the spiritual, the "natural man" unable to do that. There's your sign. If they try, they show their ignorance, blinded by the Devil. Even though modern secular science must continually re-invent itself, Satan has plenty of use for faulty humanism religion called Naturalism among believers of Christ. Guard your soul.

I have but one comment today to the skeptics and scorners of truth here...Get thee behind me Satan.

You remind me of a septic tank, in dire need of being pumped.

 

[tourist]

I have but one comment today to the skeptics and scorners of truth here...Get thee behind me Satan.

No thanks. I prefer to stay ahead of you.

 

[Calminian]

You know what would end this once and for all Swordsman?

Evidence. That's all it takes to end this right now.

CC, do you consider the Bible, evidence? Why or why not?

I ask because most of the time people who demand this have a very narrow view of evidence and often are engaging in circular reasoning unaware.

For instance, what would you consider acceptable evidence for a miracle?

 

[JesusIsAll]

You know what would end this once and for all Swordsman?

Evidence. That's all it takes to end this right now.

Oh, spare us all the sophistry! If one were to show you the statistical impossibility of already fulfilled Bible prophecy being by chance, presented irreducible complexity to you, if you even had the best atheistic wherewithal? You'd ignore it entirely, take a powder as to an intelligent reply to what's presented, or change the subject. You've already stated you're just an atheist, who doesn't know anything else, therefore doesn't have to answer anything else of your peers' bogus accounts of the earth and universe. You say you don't deal with evidence, then say you want evidence? You look for evidence, when you wouldn't know the evidence, if it were a locomotive that hit you in the rear? Been there, done that. Trolling more, and enjoying it less?

Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[JackH]

I am concerned there are some who claim to be Christians who would let themselves become obsessed with your words.

See, here's the thing.

You pounded away with your new ICR homeboy, Dr. Cupps.

Dr. Hurd refuted what Dr. Cupps had to say.

Nobody has refuted much of anything Dr. Hurd had to say with anything other than mindless driveling rhetoric.

You YECs keep urinating against the wind.

Duh.

 

[JackH]

Oh, spare us all the sophistry! If one were to show you the statistical impossibility of already fulfilled Bible prophecy being by chance, presented irreducible complexity to you, if you even had the best atheistic wherewithal? You'd ignore it entirely, take a powder as to an intelligent reply to what's presented, or change the subject.

Why don't you start a thread on that subject? Or refer to me a recent thread on this subject, if there is one.

I would be very interested.

This thread is about dinosaurs.

The overwhelming evidence is that dinosaurs became extinct somewhere around 65 million years ago and did not coexist with humans.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me even a shred of evidence to indicate otherwise.

 

[Calminian]

Why don't you start a thread on that subject? Or refer to me a recent thread on this subject, if there is one.

I would be very interested.

This thread is about dinosaurs.

The overwhelming evidence is that dinosaurs became extinct somewhere around 65 million years ago and did not coexist with humans.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me even a shred of evidence to indicate otherwise.

You've already been given a ton of evidence. The problem is you chosen to ignore it by faith. Instead of trusting the best evidence of all, Scripture, you've opted to believe wild theories by men who weren't there. Yet the very Savior you claim to believe in was there and has endorsed the Bible and the Genesis account. Yet you refuse to believe.

I don't think evidence is the issue for you. I think you're rejection of the Genesis account is much more emotional than rational. Just look at how you're carrying yourself on this thread.