If Man Has No Role In His Own Salvation......

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Mar 28, 2014
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You don't get it do you.

Condemnation is due to unbelief. To be saved, you must believe. 180 degree change in mind, from belief to non belief.
Matthew 17:19-21King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.




James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


according to your understanding ...those discipled are condemned and devils are saved



What was Johns message?? REPENT and BELIEVE in the gospel
What was Jesus message?? "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentnance". "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish".
How about Peter?? Repent and be converted (acts 3)

if you want to be concerted, you have to repent, because it is repentance that causes faith in Christ. Your not going to have faith in unbelief.



one must hear the word first before they can repent...not only hear but also believe...can anyone testify of repenting before they heard the word?? and it is because the believed the word they repented....start a poll if you dare....
faith comes by hearing....that can be backed by scripture....can you back this with scripture???....it is repentance that causes faith in Christ.


Yet Jesus said faith as amall as a mustard seed can move mountains. A person in unbelief does not even have that minute amount of faith. He must repent before he will even have that minute amount of faith.

Going from unbelief to belief is by defenition repenting.
faith as a mustard seed...meaning....it starts small and grows into a huge tree....so faith must grow....you are thinking little faith can do big things....
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Sorry, I do not get my theology from strongs, which is a basic tool which may help us understand things. but is very limited and generic

Yes, hard heart that hard heart has to be changed. That change is called repent (the actual greek word means to do a 180 degree turn and walk the opposite way) This must happen to our mind, Our mind carries us one way, away from God. it can not understand God, and can not do any good. It must do a 180 degree turn for it to accept God, recieve God and have faith in God.


Do you understand that it is NOT the changing of ones mind but it is the turn around of the heart? It is OUT OF THE HEART

Mark 6

[SUP]20 [/SUP]He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, [SUP]22 [/SUP]adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. [SUP]23 [/SUP]All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”


The root of unbelief STEMS FROM THE HEART not the head. It is the heart that needs to turn around.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Do you understand that it is NOT the changing of ones mind but it is the turn around of the heart? It is OUT OF THE HEART

Mark 6

[SUP]20 [/SUP]He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, [SUP]22 [/SUP]adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. [SUP]23 [/SUP]All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”


The root of unbelief STEMS FROM THE HEART not the head. It is the heart that needs to turn around.
um, the heart is the mind. Not the organ that pumps blood.

so if you change your heart, your changing your mind..
 
Dec 26, 2012
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um, the heart is the mind. Not the organ that pumps blood.

so if you change your heart, your changing your mind..
Wrong definition

Definition Heart - Merriam Webster

Full Definition of HEART

1
a : a hollow muscular organ of vertebrate animals that by its rhythmic contraction acts as a force pump maintaining the circulation of the blood
b : a structure in an invertebrate animal functionally analogous to the vertebrate heart
c :
breast, bosom
d : something resembling a heart in shape; specifically : a stylized representation of a heart

2
a : a playing card marked with a stylized figure of a red heart
b plural : the suit comprising cards marked with
hearts
c plural but sing or plural in constr : a game in which the object is to avoid taking tricks containing hearts

3
a :
personality, disposition <a cold heart>
b obsolete :
intellect

4
: the emotional or moral as distinguished from the intellectual nature: as
a : generous disposition :
compassion <a leader with heart>
b :
love, affection <won her heart>
c :
courage, ardor <never lost heart>


5
: one's innermost character, feelings, or inclinations <knew it in his heart> <a man after my own heart>

6
a : the central or innermost part :
center
b : the essential or most vital part of something
c : the younger central compact part of a leafy rosette (as a head of lettuce)
— at heart : in essence :
basically, essentially



by heart : by rote or from memory



to heart : with deep concern
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Wrong definition

Definition Heart - Merriam Webster

Full Definition of HEART

1
a : a hollow muscular organ of vertebrate animals that by its rhythmic contraction acts as a force pump maintaining the circulation of the blood
b : a structure in an invertebrate animal functionally analogous to the vertebrate heart
c :
breast, bosom
d : something resembling a heart in shape; specifically : a stylized representation of a heart

2
a : a playing card marked with a stylized figure of a red heart
b plural : the suit comprising cards marked with
hearts
c plural but sing or plural in constr : a game in which the object is to avoid taking tricks containing hearts

3
a :
personality, disposition <a cold heart>
b obsolete :
intellect

4
: the emotional or moral as distinguished from the intellectual nature: as
a : generous disposition :
compassion <a leader with heart>
b :
love, affection <won her heart>
c :
courage, ardor <never lost heart>


5
: one's innermost character, feelings, or inclinations <knew it in his heart> <a man after my own heart>

6
a : the central or innermost part :
center
b : the essential or most vital part of something
c : the younger central compact part of a leafy rosette (as a head of lettuce)
— at heart : in essence :
basically, essentially



by heart : by rote or from memory



to heart : with deep concern

I do not get my doctrine from the english dictionarey either.


καρδία, -ας, ἡ, poetic κραδία and καρδίη (in the latter form almost always in Hom. [only at the beginning of a line in three places; everywhere else by metathesis κραδίη; Ebeling, Lex. Hom. s. v.]), [fr. a root signifying to quiver or palpitate; cf. Curtius § 39; Vaniček p. 1097 (Etym. Magn. 491, 56 παρὰ τὸ κραδαίνω, τὸ σείω• ἀεικίνητος γὰρ ἡ καρδία); allied with Lat. cor; Eng. heart]; Sept. for לֵב and לֵבָב; the heart;
1. prop. that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life: 2 S. 18:14; 2 K. 9:24; Tob. 6:5 (4), 7 (6) sq., 17 (16). Hence
2. univ. καρδία denotes the seat and centre of all physical and spiritual life; and
a. the vigor and sense of physical life (Ps. 101 (102):5; στήρισον τὴν καρδίαν σου ψωμῷ ἄρτου, Judg. 19:5; to which add Ps. 103 (104):15): τρέφειν τὰς καρδίας, Jas. 5:5; ἐμπιπλῶν τὰς καρδίας τροφῆς, Acts 14:17; Βαρεῖν τ. καρδίας κραιπάλῃ καὶ μέθῃ, Lk. 21:34; [but see b. δ. below];
b. the centre and seat of spiritual life, the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavors [so in Eng. heart, inner man, etc.];


Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (p. 325). New York: Harper & Brothers.

2840 καρδία (kardia), ας (as), ἡ (hē): n.fem.; ≡ DBLHebr 4213, 4222; Str 2588; TDNT 3.605—1. LN 26.3 inner self, never the literal body part called the “heart,” this is a reference to the areas of the inner self, including: the volition, the mind, the desires, etc., though the facility of the intellect make be slightly more emphasized (Mt 15:19; Lk 6:45 v.r.); 2. LN 83.14 inside, far inside something (Mt 12:40), note: see LN index for a fuller treatment of the lexical units.

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
and while we are at it:

repent:

μετα-νοέω, -ῶ; fut. μετανοήσω; 1 aor. μετενόησα; fr. [Antipho], Xen. down; Sept. several times for נִחַם; to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent (to feel sorry that one has done this or that, Jon. 3:9), of having offended some one,

Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (p. 405). New York: Harper & Brothers.

41.52 μετανοέω; μετάνοια, ας f: to change one’s way of life as the result of a complete change of thought and attitude with regard to sin and righteousness—‘to repent, to change one’s way, repentance.’5

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 509). New York: United Bible Societies.





μετανοέω, μετάνοια
metanoeō, to know after, change one’s mind, repent; metanoia, repentance


Spicq, C., & Ernest, J. D. (1994). Theological lexicon of the New Testament (Vol. 2, p. 471). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

I think I will trust the greek scholars, if thats is ok??
 
Dec 26, 2012
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and while we are at it:

repent:

μετα-νοέω, -ῶ; fut. μετανοήσω; 1 aor. μετενόησα; fr. [Antipho], Xen. down; Sept. several times for נִחַם; to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent (to feel sorry that one has done this or that, Jon. 3:9), of having offended some one,

Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (p. 405). New York: Harper & Brothers.

41.52 μετανοέω; μετάνοια, ας f: to change one’s way of life as the result of a complete change of thought and attitude with regard to sin and righteousness—‘to repent, to change one’s way, repentance.’5

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 509). New York: United Bible Societies.





μετανοέω, μετάνοια
metanoeō, to know after, change one’s mind, repent; metanoia, repentance


Spicq, C., & Ernest, J. D. (1994). Theological lexicon of the New Testament (Vol. 2, p. 471). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

I think I will trust the greek scholars, if thats is ok??
So are you saying it's JUST A MENTAL AGREEMENT AND NOTHING MORE?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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So are you saying it's JUST A MENTAL AGREEMENT AND NOTHING MORE?
Just how does one describe a deeply personal confrontation about ones sin before Almighty God? If you have faced God under conviction about your sin and the impending judgment that has been decreed, well you would gladly accept mental agreement but alas it's far more than that. Being broken over your sin and the agony Christ bore to redeem your soul if I could get away with a mental agreement I would be getting off easy.

Nope I'm face down before the Lamb of God broken and pleading, begging Him to forgive me and save me from my sins. The burden is Spiritual and the action is Spiritual. He received me vile as I was and He made me into His image before the Father. I am more in Christ than I could ever be otherwise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 28, 2014
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So are you saying it's JUST A MENTAL AGREEMENT AND NOTHING MORE?
that is what he teaches...but if one mind is changed then their attitude will change also and their actions will change too....
he teaches repentance is a change of mind from unbelief of the gospel to belief of the gospel...and thus you are now saved...
 
Dec 26, 2012
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that is what he teaches...but if one mind is changed then their attitude will change also and their actions will change too....
he teaches repentance is a change of mind from unbelief of the gospel to belief of the gospel...and thus you are now saved...
Yet scripture shows it is a change of heart. The mind follows the heart not the other way around.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Just how does one describe a deeply personal confrontation about ones sin before Almighty God? If you have faced God under conviction about your sin and the impending judgment that has been decreed, well you would gladly accept mental agreement but alas it's far more than that. Being broken over your sin and the agony Christ bore to redeem your soul if I could get away with a mental agreement I would be getting off easy.

Nope I'm face down before the Lamb of God broken and pleading, begging Him to forgive me and save me from my sins. The burden is Spiritual and the action is Spiritual. He received me vile as I was and He made me into His image before the Father. I am more in Christ than I could ever be otherwise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
repentance is not only change of mind but change of action
Matthew 21:28-33King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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repentance is not only change of mind but change of action
Matthew 21:28-33King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Change in mine follow by change in action.

Change in action not always change in mine. It my pretending not from the heart.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
So are you saying it's JUST A MENTAL AGREEMENT AND NOTHING MORE?

faith Why do you people ignore faith?

Belief is a mental agreement, We can agree, yet not have faith.

True faith saves. Faith means trust, assurance.


31.85 πιστεύωb; πίστιςb, εως f: to believe to the extent of complete trust and reliance—‘to believe in, to have confidence in, to have faith in, to trust, faith, trust.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 375). New York: United Bible Societies.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Just how does one describe a deeply personal confrontation about ones sin before Almighty God? If you have faced God under conviction about your sin and the impending judgment that has been decreed, well you would gladly accept mental agreement but alas it's far more than that. Being broken over your sin and the agony Christ bore to redeem your soul if I could get away with a mental agreement I would be getting off easy.

Nope I'm face down before the Lamb of God broken and pleading, begging Him to forgive me and save me from my sins. The burden is Spiritual and the action is Spiritual. He received me vile as I was and He made me into His image before the Father. I am more in Christ than I could ever be otherwise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

in other words, you trust God, You have confidence in what God says.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Yet scripture shows it is a change of heart. The mind follows the heart not the other way around.
only his mind is changed...not the heart
Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Matthew 12:35
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.