144,000

[eternally-gratefull]

I never said otherwise,what I did say is can you from scripture show that John's understanding of the whole earth is DIFFERENT from Luke's understanding,knowing that BOTH wrote DIRECTLY to the people of their day?

Rev 13: 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[d] tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

how many more words do we need.

Not just the world. but;

ALL who dwell on the the earth,
EVERY nation
EVERY tribe
EVERY tongue.

this has only been used once, the flood, where all who inhabit the earth were killed but 8.

This is not rome, or its territorry, it is all mankind, no one will escape the beasts influence

 

[Bowman]

Doesn't mean a thing slice......as context determines the usage, and like I have shown it can be viewed from at least 9 different ways not to mention what EG added....grasping at straws....I suggest the straw dispenser at Mc. Donalds!

Contextually, had you even bothered to look, the ‘great multitude’ that appears in Rev 7 also appears in Rev 17 and again in Rev 19 and clearly refers to the same Righteous group – NOT another group.

 

[Straightshot]

"I have always believed the church (Holy Spirit resides in us) is the restrainer"


Both are true functions of the Lord's holy spirit as you state them .... However, there is no limitation to His holy spirit's function

What you believe comes from those apply "departure" [falling away] in the text to the "rapture" [2 Thessalonians 2:3] and that the same is the removal of the restrainer in those departing .... not true

The "restrainer" will not be removed from earth or anywhere else in the universe, but taken "out of the way"

The Lord is in fact the "restrainer" and He continues to restrain during the tribulation period, but just less than He does today

If He reduced His restraint to 0 during Satan's short rant, Satan and his beast would obliterate the earth and everything on it in short order ..... particularly humans .... this devil is capable

But the Lord will bridle him enough to prevent, and will at the same time let him have his way with the earth dwellers who refuse to believe the truth during the tribulation .... then He will turn on Satan and remove him his game [Revelation 20:1-3]

The are many scriptures that tell of a pre-tribulation "rapture".... but would suggest that the one you are using is not

Those that disagree with you about "rapture" before tribulation will use it against your argument .... take it away from them and present all of the others

I can give them to you if you like

But know this the 144000 and others who will turn in the tribulation will be filled with the Lord's holy spirit for sure, just like you are

 

[Straightshot]

"Contextually, had you even bothered to look, the ‘great multitude’ that appears in Rev 7 also appears in Rev 17 and again in Rev 19 and clearly refers to the same Righteous group – NOT another group."


True, Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those on thrones]

.... all the same just before, during the tribulation, and after

This is the evidence of a pre-tribulation "harpazo" [Revelation 3:10]

However, the 144000 are different and these of Israel will experience the tribulation as mortals upon the earth
[Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7]

Others that turn in the tribulation will either be martyred for their faith, or they will survive as mortals to enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom just after

 

[dcontroversal]

Contextually, had you even bothered to look, the ‘great multitude’ that appears in Rev 7 also appears in Rev 17 and again in Rev 19 and clearly refers to the same Righteous group – NOT another group.

I have looked and by taking a statement used three times in scripture as applied unto one group does not mean that is applies unto a PARTICULAR NUMBER and or GROUP THAT LEARNS a NEW SONG THAT NO OTHER MEN CAN KNOW!.....Open your eyes to the truth!

 

[Yahshua]

Are the 144,000 actually 144,000 physical Jews because genetically speaking, this seems like an impossibility seeing that there would need to be 12,000 from each tribe, I am just struggling with Spiritual/physical Jews, because there is obvious importance in understanding the distinctions

I don't think the 144,000 are speaking of those who currently call themselves Jews.

Revelation 2:9

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them who say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

John 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Matthew 23:33

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Starting at the original children of the devil. The Pharisees are called brood of vipers who have no truth in them. It was their traditions (which were *completely contrary* to the Commandments of God) that led so many down the wrong path. In the gospels they are referred to as "The Jews" even though Christ, his Apostles & disciples, and many people who were converted to the truth were also Jews.

For a brief time the Pharisees' "traditions" became the religion known as Phariseeism, which continued to spread northward to Europe after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, past the caucus mountains, converting gentiles to the religion. Eventually that religion became known as Judaism and gentile proselytes became known as "Jews" even though there's not a drop of Semitic blood (i.e. from Noah's son Shem) in their bodies which would tie them to Jacob through Ancient Israel's Patriarch Judah. They so completely converted their entire lifestyle to the way of the Pharisee Jew that they eventually adopted their culture & history.

So just to be clear; anyone who was a follower of Phariseeism was a follower of those Christ called seed of Satan and not a seed of Abraham. So it's also true that *anyone* who's a gentile descendant of those followers are not really Jews either...but at some point their conversion to the religion became confused with actually being from the bloodline of Judah, to the point where we now have a larger percentage of people from Ashkenaz (son of Japheth) who claim to be Jews than we have people from Judah (descendant of Shem) who rightfully own the name.

This is verifiable history found in the Jewish Encyclopedia and other historic sources.



Additionally (and more importantly), Christ is the king of Israel; verified by scripture. Both by being a seed of David AND the prophesied "first born son" of God (which "Israel" is referred as so many times in scripture), he alone carries the right to the name "Israel". Thus anyone (Jew, Gentile...) who is a part of him (i.e. his body) IS truly Israel (whether natural or grafted). The problem we have is we still look at things with our eyes first instead of with our spirit first.

Daniel prophesied that the land will remain desolate until the consummation. It's now in a constant state of war. And Christ said the land will be trampled underfoot until the time of the Gentiles is finished.

So food for thought: "who are the gentiles that are actually trampling the land"? Are the gentiles Christ referred to descendants of proselytes to Islam (who are actually Semitic by blood)...or are the gentiles Christ referred to descendants of proselytes to Judaism/Phariseeism (who are actually Ashkenazi/Japhetic by blood)?

I believe those currently in control of the land are truly the gentiles prophesied to trample it, convinced that they're descendants of the chosen people. So they're not part of the 144,000.



Now scripture prophesies that the 144,000 are 12,000 from *each tribe* if "Israel". Those who are truly descendant from the tribe of Judah account for just 1 tribe out of the 12. But identities of those tribes are lost to man and only known by God. However, God said his promises to Israel are without repentance (Romans 11:29), so he only needs a remnant of natural branches for him to keep his word to them...just like he did when a remnant of Israel returned the first time from captivity. There's nothing new under the sun (eccl 1:9).

I know I'll sound like a broken record, but there is a seal of God defined in scripture that marks the children of Israel:


Isaiah 8:16

Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Exodus 13:9

And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD's law may be in thy mouth.

1 John 2:3-4

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Exodus 31:16-17

Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

This will be the distinction between those 144,000 and the rest of the great multitude of believers to numerous to count, which is why God repeats in Revelation 7:3 what he says in Ezekiel 9:4..

Revelation 7:3

Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Ezekiel 9:4-6

And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary.

God only needs 12,000 natural descendants from each tribe to return to the way Christ lived; living one's life by the Commandments of God, perfected by the faith in Christ. These are the ones sealed...and they are untouched by the tribulation. I also believe they are the one who shall "do exploits", witnessing with a double portion of the Holy Spirit...but I haven't gotten that far in my studies.


The rest of the Great Multitude are not marked. These are the rest of the body of Christ who come through Great Tribulation being purified; making their robes white with the blood of the lamb (Rev 7:14).

 

[Laodicea]

Are the 144,000 actually 144,000 physical Jews because genetically speaking, this seems like an impossibility seeing that there would need to be 12,000 from each tribe, I am just struggling with Spiritual/physical Jews, because there is obvious importance in understanding the distinctions

Why would the 12 tribes be a literal number, but not 12000? The 144000 is a literal number from those who are Israel today.

[h=1]Galatians 3:29 (KJV)[/h] [SUP]29 [/SUP]And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Straightshot]

Then Lord knows exactly who the 144000 of the children of Israel are already .... He s picked them just as He picked 12 apostles

These have not yet appeared in Israel, but they will during the coming time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30]

So will His two Israelite prophets of Revelation 11

The 144000 are not of today's Gentile "church" as some think

 

[kennethcadwell]

Hint:

Ezekiel 40 is the Lord's millennial temple that will be built after the tribulation period .... this one is not a tribulation temple

And note carefully that Revelation 11:2 states to not measure the mount court "without" a temple of the Lord's

.... none will be there during the tribulation period

The contrast given is in 11:1 ..... the Lord's temple in heaven worth measuring

Those that worship therein are the pre-tribulation church of today, not "Jews" in a rebuilt temple on the mount on the earth

Jerusalem and the temple mount will be overrun and occupied by Muslim Gentiles ... and these would never allow a"Jewish" temple on the mount

It is true that certain orthodox of Israel today want a temple because they think that the "Messiah" will not come if no temple .... these do not know that Jesus is their Messiah

The severity of the tribulation .... the time of "Jacobs trouble" for them, will not be conducive for building a temple on the mount .... this will not happen

Those that turn to the Lord during the tribulation will get their temple just after .... and built by the Lord

The temple mentioned in Revelation 11 is not in heaven, and does not say do not measure the mount court because there is no temple. This is what it says;

Revelation 11:1-2
Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the alter, and those who worship there.
" But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Notice it says the temple is there, but the outer court of it is not measured like it did in the first two temples because it has been given over to the gentiles to thread on for 3 1/2 years during the tribulation. ( 42 months, times times and half a time )

You never heard of the series "Left Behind?"

I know of the movies, but I don't pay much attention in who writes a book or directs a movie to much. I focus more on if they are biblical sound.

I think we agree that it does not matter eternally if we agree or disagree on some matters, but you have opened my mind to rethink things that I cannot be sure of, none of us can, but my train of thought makes more sense to me. I have always believed the church (Holy Spirit resides in us) is the restrainer, and once we are removed, the tribulation saints will become active in their own salvation because they won't just choose Christ once and for all, they will have to continue to choose Him in the most horrific of ultimatums.

I believe the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, not the church.
The reason in this is because if you notice in the scripture it says He that restrains. The church has never been mentioned in a masculine term. The church has always been shown as a woman, and bride.
The reason I side with the church not being hear when the man of sin is revealed, is because if the Holy Spirit is taken then we would have to go to for the Lord said He would never leave us. So either we will have to go, or the Lord comes back at this time, but by scripture we can see the man of sin gets 3 1/2 years to cause great tribulation before the Lord comes again.

 

[Straightshot]

"The temple mentioned in Revelation 11 is not in heaven, and does not say do not measure the mount court because there is no temple"


So tell me, who will be worshiping in the temple on the earth on the mount as you say while being overrun by the invading Gentiels

Revelation 11:1 is the sameas here [Revelation 4; 5: 7:9-17] and not on the earth during the tribulation

The court "without" the temple is on the top of the mount on the earth

There is no temple of the the Lord's there

There are no contradictions in the Lord's Word

All of the scriptures above must be taken together for proper rendering

 

[kennethcadwell]

"The temple mentioned in Revelation 11 is not in heaven, and does not say do not measure the mount court because there is no temple"


So tell me, who will be worshiping in the temple on the earth on the mount as you say while being overrun by the invading Gentiels

Revelation 11:1 is the sameas here [Revelation 4; 5: 7:9-17] and not on the earth during the tribulation

The court "without" the temple is on the top of the mount on the earth

There is no temple of the the Lord's there

There are no contradictions in the Lord's Word

All of the scriptures above must be taken together for proper rendering

You are the one causing the contradiction, for it clearly shows a temple there. You can have a temple without the outer court. Look at it again, it says measure the temple and the alter. They can't be measured if they don't exist.
Then it says leave out the court which is outside the temple. This means the court is not a part of the temple itself, it is the surrounding land where the Jews where able to worship, because only the priest's could enter the temple with the high priest going into the holy of holies.
But now when this temple is built that land will belong to the gentiles, or as we see the muslims with their dome of the rock. This would work perfect with a peace treaty that would put the mount under a shared arrangement, which has been pushed ever since Clinton almost had it worked out.

The Jews of course that do not accept Jesus as the Messiah still will worship at the temple.
The gentiles that are given the outer court, are the same ones who thread the holy city of Jerusalem for 42 months in the tribulation.


Revelation 11:1-2
Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the alter, and those who worship there.
" But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

 

[Straightshot]

"The Jews of course that do not accept Jesus as the Messiah still will worship at the temple.
The gentiles that are given the outer court, are the same ones who thread the holy city of Jerusalem for 42 months in the tribulation"


But the "Jews" will not be there during the 42 month rule [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

And it is the Lord's temple in heaven that is to be measured with His true ecclesia worshiping therein as stated in the verses I gave you

The mount "without" a temple of the Lord's cannot be measured

You view is piece meal and not comprehensive

 

[kennethcadwell]

"The Jews of course that do not accept Jesus as the Messiah still will worship at the temple.
The gentiles that are given the outer court, are the same ones who thread the holy city of Jerusalem for 42 months in the tribulation"


But the "Jews" will not be there during the 42 month rule [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

And it is the Lord's temple in heaven that is to be measured with His true ecclesia worshiping therein as stated in the verses I gave you

The mount "without" a temple of the Lord's cannot be measured

You view is piece meal and not comprehensive

That is not correct, you can go back in scripture and see that gentile believers and Jews both will be here on earth during the tribulation. The rapture event that we refer to, in bible states that believers are not subject to God's wrath. God's wrath is not poured out tell after the end of the great tribulation.
Then you have the tribulation saints who are washed clean during the tribulation period, and are killed in the tribulation.
Plus if Jews are not here during the 3 1/2 years of great tribulation, who is the man of sin coming up against ?

It's the Jew's that he comes against.

 

[Straightshot]

"God's wrath is not poured out tell after the end of the great tribulation"


This is where you make a false assumption

Revelation's unfolding of the events of the total tribulation period is all of His doing .... He will control all of it

All one has to do is to read the narrative and note where the judgment events are coming from .... it is the Lord who commands His angels involved as He brings unprecedented tribulation upon the earth dwellers for 2550 days [Jude 1:14-15]

If you do not think all of this setting is the Lord's wrath then you have no other explanation for it

Put the extra-biblical book that you are reading away and read your Bible

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"God's wrath is not poured out tell after the end of the great tribulation"


This is where you make a false assumption

Revelation's unfolding of the events of the total tribulation period is all of His doing .... He will control all of it

All one has to do is to read the narrative and note where the judgment events are coming from .... it is the Lord who commands His angels involved as He brings unprecedented tribulation upon the earth dwellers for 2550 days [Jude 1:14-15]

If you do not think all of this setting is the Lord's wrath then you have no other explanation for it

Put the extra-biblical book that you are reading away and read your Bible

Gods wrath IS tribulation. Why do you think it will be greater than any time since time began. Because he is the one who is controling it. through all the judgments poured out on the earth in that age.

 

[Bookends]

I believe Gods word surpasses time. The word was written to those of that day, present day and future. Just as Ezekiel's visions probably made little or no sense to Him, yet God divinely inspired His word to be written for ALL generations. I think we have to be careful not to interpret the scriptures through one dimensional thinking, The authors themselves were probably perplexed by much of their visions God told them to write down, not everything made sense from their world view at that time and likewise.

This type of understand leads all kinds of personal flights of fantasies and imaginations. The writers of the Bible, for the most part, wrote to people in their epic of time about them and their situations. However, the bible was also written for US to gleam and mind all the spiritual insight it has to offer. We must always interpret God's Word with his Word, not our own interpretations. However, some things are hard to grasp and understand, which why we have our own understandings, which doesn't mean its the correct one to have. Humble and mature Christians will realize this.

 

[Bookends]

This is why I hate some forms of dispensationalism.

It states the gospel of grace is removed, and the law is re-instituted as a means to be saved.

The law could never save anyone. No one could "endure to the end" for eternal life because Gods righteous standard is so high there is no a person on earth could could reach it. No one has ever been able to reach that statndard but Christ, He fulfilled that Righteous standard we could (and those people in the tribulation) can not live by, Thats why he needed to come, His death will be just as salvic to them as it is to us today. they to will recieve the HS (who was given only after Christs death) just as we have been given, As far as the gospel goes. and Christianity goes. it will be the same for them as it is for us.

The only thing which will change is the severe persecution they suffer. which will be worldwide in scope. unlike today in which only parts of the world are we severely persecuted.

Which is why the temple vision of Ezekiel 40-48 can not be a physical millennial temple, read carefully>>Chapter 43
Consecrating the Altar

18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it. 19 You shall give a young bull for a sin offering to the priests, the Levites, who are of the seed of Zadok, who approach Me to minister to Me,’ says the Lord God. 20 ‘You shall take some of its blood and put iton the four horns of the altar, on the four corners of the ledge, and on the rim around it; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it. 21 Then you shall also take the bull of the sin offering, and burn it in the appointed place of the temple, outside the sanctuary. 22 On the second day you shall offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they cleansed it with the bull. 23 When you have finished cleansing it, you shall offer a young bull without blemish, and a ram from the flock without blemish. 24 When you offer them before the Lord, the priests shall throw salt on them, and they will offer them up as a burnt offering to the Lord. 25Every day for seven days you shall prepare a goat for a sin offering; they shall also prepare a young bull and a ram from the flock, both without blemish. 26 Seven days they shall make atonement for the altar and purify it, and so consecrate it. 27 When these days are over it shall be, on the eighth day and thereafter, that the priests shall offer your burnt offerings and your peace offerings on the altar; and I will accept you,’ says the Lord God.”

I am going to make a fresh post on this, coming soon.

 

[Bookends]

This type of understand leads all kinds of personal flights of fantasies and imaginations. The writers of the Bible, for the most part, wrote to people in their epic of time about them and their situations. However, the bible was also written for US to gleam and mind all the spiritual insight it has to offer. We must always interpret God's Word with his Word, not our own interpretations. However, some things are hard to grasp and understand, which why we have our own understandings, which doesn't mean its the correct one to have. Humble and mature Christians will realize this.

AND true Christians will TOLERATE ONE ANOTHER, as long as it's not against the essential Christian doctrines.

 

[Bookends]

Gods wrath IS tribulation. Why do you think it will be greater than any time since time began. Because he is the one who is controling it. through all the judgments poured out on the earth in that age.

I disagree, tribulation and God's wrath are 2 separate things, but sure those in His wrath will have tribulation (+) leading to death.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Which is why the temple vision of Ezekiel 40-48 can not be a physical millennial temple, read carefully>>Chapter 43
Consecrating the Altar

18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it. 19 You shall give a young bull for a sin offering to the priests, the Levites, who are of the seed of Zadok, who approach Me to minister to Me,’ says the Lord God. 20 ‘You shall take some of its blood and put iton the four horns of the altar, on the four corners of the ledge, and on the rim around it; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it. 21 Then you shall also take the bull of the sin offering, and burn it in the appointed place of the temple, outside the sanctuary. 22 On the second day you shall offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they cleansed it with the bull. 23 When you have finished cleansing it, you shall offer a young bull without blemish, and a ram from the flock without blemish. 24 When you offer them before the Lord, the priests shall throw salt on them, and they will offer them up as a burnt offering to the Lord. 25Every day for seven days you shall prepare a goat for a sin offering; they shall also prepare a young bull and a ram from the flock, both without blemish. 26 Seven days they shall make atonement for the altar and purify it, and so consecrate it. 27 When these days are over it shall be, on the eighth day and thereafter, that the priests shall offer your burnt offerings and your peace offerings on the altar; and I will accept you,’ says the Lord God.”

I am going to make a fresh post on this, coming soon.

I am not worried about that temple. What matters is the temple the future beast will abominate, causing the desolation.