-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
Paul was speaking of a group of people, not induvidual people.
Isreal (as a nation) being the natural olive branch. And Gentiles (nations) being the wild olive tree.
God cut of Isreal, because they were blind in part. And attached the gentile nations, Because they believed.
Context my friend. I know you do not want to believe romans 11 is about this because it does not fit your prophesy belief, but we must take context.
E
Oh, well, yeah, but that was just Paul and he probably got it a little off because he was a Pharisee at one time - you know.
Ones greater than Paul are now in control of half the Church and unless you cut out [at the absolute minimum] half of your N.T., you're not saved either ................. like me. And more than half of what you cut out, will be from Paul.... see?
Because one minute he's telling us that we're not under the law and it's not of works -- but then once we are saved -- now he's saying we are judged by works and we're to follow the law of Christ.
Ya see - the man was probably all mixed up, being a Jew and all of that.
So vot can I tellya - the man was half schlemiel taught by Gamaliel.
Ones greater than Paul are now in control of half the Church and unless you cut out [at the absolute minimum] half of your N.T., you're not saved either ................. like me. And more than half of what you cut out, will be from Paul.... see?
Because one minute he's telling us that we're not under the law and it's not of works -- but then once we are saved -- now he's saying we are judged by works and we're to follow the law of Christ.
Ya see - the man was probably all mixed up, being a Jew and all of that.
So vot can I tellya - the man was half schlemiel taught by Gamaliel.
To get unborn again, you may as well just get completely unborn.
So you just need a Time Machine for going back in time, not a pseudo-Time Machine like you might see in some Sci-Fi movie, but a real time machine. When you get it, you find your life going back like running a movie backwards. You know it is working because the chicken you brought along with you turns back into an egg!
So get in your time machine, unwind your time line, find yourself walking backwards ever getting younger, until you are a baby again & then hop into your mother's womb, regressing to an embryo and then you get unfertilized and divide into an egg and sperm (which swims backwards) -- and you end up as just a gleam in your father's eye!
Then you have been completely unborn altogether.
Good luck with that project.
So you just need a Time Machine for going back in time, not a pseudo-Time Machine like you might see in some Sci-Fi movie, but a real time machine. When you get it, you find your life going back like running a movie backwards. You know it is working because the chicken you brought along with you turns back into an egg!
So get in your time machine, unwind your time line, find yourself walking backwards ever getting younger, until you are a baby again & then hop into your mother's womb, regressing to an embryo and then you get unfertilized and divide into an egg and sperm (which swims backwards) -- and you end up as just a gleam in your father's eye!
Then you have been completely unborn altogether.
Good luck with that project.
Paul is speaking to and warns the Gentiles Christians, not to haughty with their new position, for God can cut them off too...This is after they joined the root of the tree, which is Christ... You didn't even touch on that...21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Now if Paul is talking to unsaved Gentiles, this would make more sense. Don't worry, I now it's a hard passage for anyone thinking OSAS. I'm just not sure anymore. I know I'm secure and sealed, but this verse stumps me from backing OSAS all the way. That's not to say I'm on the other side of the works vs faith because I'm not.
Now if Paul is talking to unsaved Gentiles, this would make more sense. Don't worry, I now it's a hard passage for anyone thinking OSAS. I'm just not sure anymore. I know I'm secure and sealed, but this verse stumps me from backing OSAS all the way. That's not to say I'm on the other side of the works vs faith because I'm not.
C
Again?
OK - Again I'll ask you all to post more so-called 'counter' Scriptures to what we believe ... though in most cases, I don't feel nor have reason to feel that any do Know What I believe and you've just been putting the same spin on all of us --- lumping all of us together that you believe don't believe as you believe but it may not be what I or others believe.
So there!
OK - Again I'll ask you all to post more so-called 'counter' Scriptures to what we believe ... though in most cases, I don't feel nor have reason to feel that any do Know What I believe and you've just been putting the same spin on all of us --- lumping all of us together that you believe don't believe as you believe but it may not be what I or others believe.
So there!
Last edited:
E
No. Paul is talking about the difference between Gentiles and Israel. Unlike in Chapter 9 where he says there are no jew or gentile, for they are one in Christ. In Chapter 11. He places believing and unbelieving Israel all in one group. And seperates this group from believeng Gentiles
Paul told the gentiles not to be wise in their own opinion. The Israel has been blinded IN PART, but when the time of the gentile is complete, ALL Israel will be saved.
Isreal (as a nation) was cut off. And the gentile church was grafted in, But just as we were grafted in, we too can fall away and be cut off. And Israel can be grafted back in.
The vine (although important, because it is Christ) is not the context. the context is Israel.
I say then, has God cast away His people?
Everything after this, up to the point where paul says the deliverer will come out of Zion, And take away the sin of his people. to the point that they are beloved because of the COVENANT between God and their fathers, is the context and answer of this question.
This is what Romans 11 says
Romans 11
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[SUP]17[/SUP]And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Paul does NOT say ALL of the natural branches were cut off BUT SOME of the branches were cut. (Individuals not the nation were cut off off the tree)
Romans 11
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[SUP]17[/SUP]And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Paul does NOT say ALL of the natural branches were cut off BUT SOME of the branches were cut. (Individuals not the nation were cut off off the tree)
E
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
9 And David says:
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[h]
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
The whole chapter is concerning the nation of Israel. Not individuals.
Notice the prophesies paul used.
The deliver will come to save THEM (Israel) It is Gods covenant with THEM (Israel)
And it is spoken of a future event, Not a past event, which brought salvation to all mankind.
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
9 And David says:
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[h]
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
The whole chapter is concerning the nation of Israel. Not individuals.
Notice the prophesies paul used.
The deliver will come to save THEM (Israel) It is Gods covenant with THEM (Israel)
And it is spoken of a future event, Not a past event, which brought salvation to all mankind.
K
Just as a baby, a babe in Christ cannot get unborn once it's born. But a baby can die if it doesn't grow, and it can't grow if it doesn't feed. And if a baby dies it cannot be brought back to life (spiritually). If you are born spiritually by being baptized into Christ, or put another way- if you marry Christ by being baptized into Christ, and then divorce Him, you are never again allowed to remarry Him. The bible says it is impossible for someone who has learned the truth and taste of the goodness of God, to come back to repentance if they ever leave. So you can't become unborn once you are born, but that baptism birth will be of no effect to those who grieve the Holy Spirit and leave.