Why do people not understand.. Dead means dead.

[dcontroversal]

Here is a quote made by you Kenneth in Mr. Twisty's post and do you loose salvation when you do this.....according to your gospel you do and you cannot have it both ways....so...what sins cause one to loose salvation or how many do you have to commit to loose it?

Kenneth's quote-->We have been controlled by sin, and still sin arises in our life and sometimes we give into it and sometimes we do not.
That is the big difference, we were controlled by sin at one point in life. Jesus never was.

 

[newbirth]

Actually he was only half correct. While he is right in saying someone who has never heard, they can have no faith. He got you and tricked you into agreeing with him, by insinuating that everyone who has heard has faith.

This is not true. And I am sure you would agree. Many people have heard the word of someone, yet never had faith in what they said at all.

I have heard the word of science concerning evolution (I am sure he has also) But I have no faith, nor do I even believe that science.

so his excuse that everyone who hears has faith is just plain and simply not true.

I am half correct and you are all wrong...faith in God comes by hearing the word of God....not by hearing science concerning evolution...not by hearing what someone says....you do not understand the power of God...
I got no one....
I tricked no one....
No one agreed with me....we both agreed with the word....
you do not agree with the word....you make the word agree with you...

Romans 10:16-18King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

 

[kennethcadwell]

25 sets of scripture out of context and go study John 3:16 from the Greek and the use of an aorist tense verb and what it actually means (IS HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE)

PRESENT continuing result from a PAST COMPLETED ACTION and then study the words ETERNAL, EVERLASTING and Ecclesiastes 3:14 and EVERY thing God does is ETERNAL including SALVATION and JUSTIFICATION based upon the faith of Christ Galatians 2:16-21.....

The bible does not teach that you can loose your salvation period and you are following the broad way to a place that you will not like Kenneth.......straight and NARROW is the way and MANY will come bragging on what the have done and their right to ENTER heaven....Jesus will say I never knew you because they tried to come by a different DOOR other than JESUS and HIS FAITH...key emphasis on the word HIS FAITH.

I know that about the everlasting life, but the thing you forget to look at is what Jesus Himself said what it means to believe in Him. He said those who hear and do His teachings, these are the ones who believe in Him.
Those who hear only but do not do, have no foundation in Him.

Yes the bible does teach one can loose salvation, and I remember posting to all of you in the past an all out study that was done that showed the early church members taught this.

You once again misuse as well the way to salvation is broad. He said the way is narrow and difficult, you and others want to make it broad and say it is easy by using your easy believism gospel. Which is not preached in the bible.

Jesus says you have to keep and obey His commands, and the Apostles confirm this in their writings.

Matthew 28:16-20


The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


1 John 2:3-6

3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in Him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.


If you are a hearer only, and not a doer then the truth is not in you. If you go with a believe only gospel, then you make the road broad and easy to do. I do not, by saying one must be a hearer and a doer makes the road narrow and straight because there is no room to budge one way or the other.
You have to stay walking just as our Lord walked following His commands.


King James Bible
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

New Living Translation
But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I dont think we are in disagreement on that, that people can fall away.
What we are in disagreement on is definition of the sheep:
Sheep can be defined as those who profess Christ, or those who follow Christ in deed (pun intended).
The first defition contradicts the Scriptures that state eternal safety. The other agrees with both the eternal safety Scriptures and with the Scriptures which Kenneth posts...

I remembered this Scripture and I believe God brought it up to me because it speaks on all that is being discussed...

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him (the professing sheep), If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed (the sheep in deed);
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. (eternal security)
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. (again those who follow satan = NOT the children of God to begin with)
John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me (not sons of God in the first place): for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 8:43 ...ye cannot hear my word.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do...
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth (truly receives, not just listens) God's words: ye therefore hear (truly receive or apply, they were obviously physically listening) them not, because ye are not of God.

Conclusion, their faith was dead, they didnt really believe Him. They just believed what pleased their flesh (miracle with bread and fish 2 chapters earlier, expectation of the fleshly king) but their trust was not IN HIM, really. They were not His sheep, as manifested. Those who continually manifest as His sheep and life of Jesus shows in their life have eternal security in Him. This does not exclude backsliding or stumble like the example of Peter shows, but excludes a sinful lifestyle and doing whatever we want.
Can we at least agree on that?

Compare that with:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[newbirth]

Here is a quote made by you Kenneth in Mr. Twisty's post and do you loose salvation when you do this.....according to your gospel you do and you cannot have it both ways....so...what sins cause one to loose salvation or how many do you have to commit to loose it?

Kenneth's quote-->We have been controlled by sin, and still sin arises in our life and sometimes we give into it and sometimes we do not.
That is the big difference, we were controlled by sin at one point in life. Jesus never was.

it takes one unrepentant sin to separate you from Christ.....
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.




1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Here is a quote made by you Kenneth in Mr. Twisty's post and do you loose salvation when you do this.....according to your gospel you do and you cannot have it both ways....so...what sins cause one to loose salvation or how many do you have to commit to loose it?

Kenneth's quote-->We have been controlled by sin, and still sin arises in our life and sometimes we give into it and sometimes we do not.
That is the big difference, we were controlled by sin at one point in life. Jesus never was.

The thing is like I said, when you backslide do you repent of your sin you made and ask forgiveness of it, or do you continue to walk in it without repenting of it ?
If you repent and ask forgiveness then no you have not lost salvation, but if you don't repent or ask forgiveness of it then you have. For through a willful unrepented sin you have made yourself enmity to God.

Lets look at what Paul says again, for he himself says the one can become disqualified;

[h=1]1 Corinthians 9:23
I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.[/h]
1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.



Revelation 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I dont think we are in disagreement on that, that people can fall away.
What we are in disagreement on is definition of the sheep:
Sheep can be defined as those who profess Christ, or those who follow Christ in deed (pun intended).
The first defition contradicts the Scriptures that state eternal safety. The other agrees with both the eternal safety Scriptures and with the Scriptures which Kenneth posts...

I remembered this Scripture and I believe God brought it up to me because it speaks on all that is being discussed...



Conclusion, their faith was dead, they didnt really believe Him. They just believed what pleased their flesh (miracle with bread and fish 2 chapters earlier, expectation of the fleshly king) but their trust was not IN HIM, really. They were not His sheep, as manifested. Those who continually manifest as His sheep and life of Jesus shows in their life have eternal security in Him. This does not exclude backsliding or stumble like the example of Peter shows, but excludes a sinful lifestyle and doing whatever we want.
Can we at least agree on that?

Compare that with:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Sheep are those who hear and do what the Lord commanded.

Goats are those who hear, but do not do what the Lord commanded.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Sheep are those who hear and do what the Lord commanded.

Goats are those who hear, but do not do what the Lord commanded.

We are in agreement then. As 1 John 2:19 says.
So if God talks with us and we do obey Him, and do repent when He chastizes us, we know we are children of God and have safety and dwelling in His house forever. Thank you Jesus!

 

[kennethcadwell]

We are in agreement then. As 1 John 2:19 says.
So if God talks with us and we do obey Him, and do repent when He chastizes us, we know we are children of God and have safety and dwelling in His house forever. Thank you Jesus!

Yes I agree with that statement.
The issue I have had is that the bible makes it clear that some will not come back in repentance.
Even the scripture I gave in post 366 of Revelation 22:19 shows that ones name can be stricken from the Book of Life.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Yes I agree with that statement.
The issue I have had is that the bible makes it clear that some will not come back in repentance.
Even the scripture I gave in post 366 of Revelation 22:19 shows that ones name can be stricken from the Book of Life.

I see.
Then it is cleared up now because thats what also dcon and E-G were saying, that these people exist but they are not the sheep to begin with. Glad we came to agreement.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I see.
Then it is cleared up now because thats what also dcon and E-G were saying, that these people exist but they are not the sheep to begin with. Glad we came to agreement.

You see that is a problem to, to say a person was not a sheep to begin with.
If a person's name is written in the Book of Life, they are a sheep. But the Lord our God says in Revelation 22:19 that ones name can be stricken from the book, which means they have no place in salvation.

1 John 2:19 is talking about those who are a form of antichrist as verse 18 says. A form of antichrist never walks in the way of the Lord, they come in for the purpose of defiling the word and draw some away from the truth. That is why they were never of us, because they never walked in the truth.

A person who walks in the truth, and then later in life falls away from their faith because say a death of a love one causing them to stir up hatred and disbelief toward God is not a form of an antichrist. For they were not always against God.
This situation happens on a regular basis, and unless one actually gets out and does the work of an evangelist they would never know this. Or they would stick to the bias thought that they never had love for the Lord.

 

[dcontroversal]

The thing is like I said, when you backslide do you repent of your sin you made and ask forgiveness of it, or do you continue to walk in it without repenting of it ?
If you repent and ask forgiveness then no you have not lost salvation, but if you don't repent or ask forgiveness of it then you have. For through a willful unrepented sin you have made yourself enmity to God.

Lets look at what Paul says again, for he himself says the one can become disqualified;

1 Corinthians 9:23
I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.


1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.



Revelation 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Go study castaway and revise your theology!

 

[Jabberjaw]

Go study castaway and revise your theology!

Now that is a well written rebuttal... how about you throw away your man made doctrine of calvin and read only the bible and go back to the doctrine of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You see that is a problem to, to say a person was not a sheep to begin with.
If a person's name is written in the Book of Life, they are a sheep. But the Lord our God says in Revelation 22:19 that ones name can be stricken from the book, which means they have no place in salvation.

1 John 2:19 is talking about those who are a form of antichrist as verse 18 says. A form of antichrist never walks in the way of the Lord, they come in for the purpose of defiling the word and draw some away from the truth. That is why they were never of us, because they never walked in the truth.

A person who walks in the truth, and then later in life falls away from their faith because say a death of a love one causing them to stir up hatred and disbelief toward God is not a form of an antichrist. For they were not always against God.
This situation happens on a regular basis, and unless one actually gets out and does the work of an evangelist they would never know this. Or they would stick to the bias thought that they never had love for the Lord.

everyones name is in the book of life. Unless they die in the sin which will never be forgiven (they die in a lost dead state) that is when it is blotted out.

Jesus was the lamb of God, who took the sin of the world (all) he paid the price in full for everyone. But as Jesus told the pharisees, All maner of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, BUT BLASPHEMY OF THE HS WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN, EVER.

He was giving them a warning, Even though they tried to attribute the work of the HS to satan, he told them they still had hope.

They do, until the day they die, if they die in a lost state, they have died in a state of blasphemy of the HS, and their names are blotted out.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Go study castaway and revise your theology!

So what you are saying is Paul saying that he would be thrown away, or become and outcast, or as some have put it to be disqualified in the faith does not mean by disobedience he could not lose his salvation. Well Paul taught the dangers of disobedience as well as did the rest of the Apostles.

Remember Revelation 22:19 I showed you that ones name can be stricken from the Book of Life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

people do not realize God is the perfect judge.

The law spoke against double jeopardy (paying for the same crime more than one)

The law also allowed for redemption (the purchase of freedom for a guilty person) and stated, if a person had his debt paid in full, he was completely forgiven of that crime, and it was as if he had never done that crime.

This is the picture of Christ, Christ paid the price of redemption for ALL MINKIND. Thus to say that a person can commit a sin which will condemn him, when that penalty was already paid is to say God is not the perfect God, but is a God who placed double jeopardy on sin, In other words, He says one thing, but does the apposite of what he said he would do (and commanded us to do)

no one at the great white throne will be judged for sin, they will be judged for their works. and what type they were. They will be cast out, not because they sinned, (jesus paid this debt) but because they commited the one sin which Jesus did not die for. they called the Holy Spirit a liar, and rejected his gospel.

 

[SoulWeaver]

man made doctrine of calvin

Nobody is calvinist here - God can foresee things so He can tell in advance who is ultimately to be called sheep, aka who will follow Him till the end, and who isnt.
So election does not exclude free will. And how do you know you are a sheep? If God chastizes you and you obey Him... so you know by this that you are His and as a son you have eternal safety in His house. It does not exclude free will nor obedience.

everyones name is in the book of life. Unless they die in the sin which will never be forgiven (they die in a lost dead state) that is when it is blotted out.

That totally makes sense, especially considering that children are clean of sin (as Jesus says).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So what you are saying is Paul saying that he would be thrown away, or become and outcast, or as some have put it to be disqualified in the faith does not mean by disobedience he could not lose his salvation. Well Paul taught the dangers of disobedience as well as did the rest of the Apostles.

Remember Revelation 22:19 I showed you that ones name can be stricken from the Book of Life.

1 John 5:5
Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

rev 2: 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

[dcontroversal]

Now that is a well written rebuttal... how about you throw away your man made doctrine of calvin and read only the bible and go back to the doctrine of Christ.

Nice try and I don't follow Calvin....and no sense in arguing scripture with the blind ones who trust into themselves and their ability to keep themselves saved....so Tuna how many times have you lost your salvation....let me guess...never...even though you try and push it without scripture in context!

 

[kennethcadwell]

everyones name is in the book of life. Unless they die in the sin which will never be forgiven (they die in a lost dead state) that is when it is blotted out.

Jesus was the lamb of God, who took the sin of the world (all) he paid the price in full for everyone. But as Jesus told the pharisees, All maner of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, BUT BLASPHEMY OF THE HS WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN, EVER.

He was giving them a warning, Even though they tried to attribute the work of the HS to satan, he told them they still had hope.

They do, until the day they die, if they die in a lost state, they have died in a state of blasphemy of the HS, and their names are blotted out.

That is not correct, only those who have faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and follow Him have their name written in the Book of Life.
Unbelievers do not have their name written in that book. To say everybody's name is written is a false theology, only believers names are written and to be blotted out of that book you would have to walk in disobedience to Him.

He gave the Pharisees and the rich man warnings because how they walk in life is for self and not for God. They do everything for themselves and if they do not repent and start living for God then they will find out their name was never written in the Book of Life do to their disobedience.